Originally posted by driver8 Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply siberianmo Member sinceFebruary 2004 From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA 7,214 posts Posted by siberianmo on Thursday, April 7, 2005 11:40 AM QUOTE: driver8 Posted: 29 Nov 2004, 22:48:37 Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! The answer to your first question about the demise of the F and Alco units, etc. can best be answered within several books, one in particular comes to mind: Mike Schaefer's "The American Passenger Train." In chapter 6 he talks about the streamliner era and the eventual "bottom falling out." Good reading ...... I cannot answer whether more steam loco's are preserved than diesel/streamliners ... however, my guess is that would be true. The steam driven loco holds so much in terms of majesty and history in American and Canadian railroading. The only operating railroad left in North America that runs equipment from the old streamline era is VIA Rail of Canada. They operate regularly scheduled trains throughout the country. The "Canadian" (Toronto-Vancouver) and the "Ocean" (Montreal-Halifax) are just two. (I should add that new "Euro" cars - called "Renaissance" have replaced all but one train each way on the Montreal-Halifax route. Check www.viarail.ca for more info.) Most of the equipment, aside from the locomotives, was manufactured by the Budd Company of Philadelphia, who also had factories in Canada. The majority of the cars running today were part of Canadian Pacific's fleet and their transcontinental train, "The Canadian" (ViA Rail dropped the "The"). So, with a bit of research, one could actually determine whether the cars were "born" in Canada or the USA. Nevertheless, they are running and they are fun to ride! Great topic![tup][:D] Happy Railroading! Siberianmo Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 7, 2005 8:01 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). It was more a change in design that allows not only for easier construction, but much better access for maintenance. The old style units had a girder-type frame just inside the car body - the EMD BL-1 & 2 sheet metal shows this clearly from the outside. The later GPs had much stronger lower frames and center sills, eliminating the need for the girder and the wide car body. Although FP45s have full width bodies, the framing is the same as a normal SD. The Illinois Railway Museum has a number of E & F units, including the BN Executive E-units. They also have a Santa-Fe FP45. http://www.irm.org/roster/diesel.html Reply Edit passengerfan Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Central Valley California 2,841 posts Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:31 PM Another problem was by the time of the Amtrak takeover very little equipment was less than twenty to thirty years old and much had seen deferred maintenance which meant heavy expenditures to put it back in reasonable order. On top of that Budd was ready to exit the passengercar business and AC&F had already left. This left Pullman who was lacking interest in passenger equipment as well. Sure the Amfleet cars came from Budd and the first order of Superliners came from Pullman but any future cars are going to be a major expense. The railroads themselves were not interested in investing in new equipment and it is for that reason only that Santa Fe and several others joined Amtrak. They were not prepared to invest the necessary funds into new equipment. Reply bobwilcox Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Crozet, VA 1,049 posts Posted by bobwilcox on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 5:19 PM The term Streamliner was a brand name used by the UP starting in 1933 for its first light weight trains such the City of Salina, City of Portland, etc. When these trains got dome cars in the 1950s the were rebranded and became Domeliners. Bob Reply tatans Member sinceMay 2004 4,115 posts Posted by tatans on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 4:52 PM Steamerfan , you must have read my mind on diesels, I refer to them as tipped-over Metal gym lockers with motors. Streamliners??? They all ended up here in Canada and we are still using them on our so-called passenger service. Reply mustanggt Member sinceOctober 2002 From: Massachusetts 664 posts Posted by mustanggt on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:36 PM QUOTE: Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Can't forget the GE Genesis diesels, or the F59PHi. C280 rollin' Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:35 PM There were 5 S/line cars attached to the back of a D/stack EB on the FT. Madison cam a short while ago. Originally posted by driver8 Hello, Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:30 PM Actually, there is a surprisingly large number of late EMD F's still in revenue service, here and there around the continent. There are quite a number of E's and F's in private ownership, too. Some of the classes are just gone, though, or so nearly so as to make no matter -- the Alcos, the Baldwins, and the F-Ms. Jamie Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 11:58 AM At the Toy Train Museum in Strasburg PE they have 2 working GG1s now in Pennsy Tuscan red again. [:o)][:I] Originally posted by AntonioFP45 M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 3:15 PM ....And maybe, just maybe a deal might have been worked out to retain the sensible and popular routes {if Amtrak was in existence then, or just let the RR's operate them}, with just enough subsidy provided to the operating railroads to keep their operation out of the red...but, that subject was kicked around on here a couple of weeks ago...I think it does sound sensible though. Surely the details could have been put together. Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. Yep! Very sad situation. I saw a clip on t.v about the Zephyr. People were very, very upset when the petition was filed. The Zephyr had a loyal clientele, but as stated even on occasions when nearly every was seat filled, the losses were very high. It's a trajedy that Amtrak wasn't created in the late 1950s when most of the railroads were complaining about the high losses. With the mindset the country had back then, Amtrak would probably have been very successful. Make a profit? NO! But with many people still traveling by train then (including congressmen and govt. officials) , the support would very likely have been strong. Ah! What could have been................................. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:08 PM Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:28 AM Wow ! thanks for all of the insightful information. i guess like everything else, the "bottom line" is the "bottom line"....... i really appreciate a resource like this forum. complete regards, driver8 Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:23 AM ....And can't we say not many forms of passenger transportation really does make money by itself.... Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. You're right tabiery, except on just one point. Many of the long distance trains that were still running in the 1960s were running full! Especially the New York to Florida Trains of the ACL, SCL (SCL in 1967). Problem was that even with every seat occupied the railroads were losing huge amounts of money on them as passenger trains were and still are very labor intensive. Passenger train ticket revenues didn't make up for crew costs, passenger car cleaning and repair maintenance, insurance, and food service, [;)] "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:42 AM ....Streamliners in railroads were not alone in the effort of securing customers back when "modern" looking conveyances were being concieved....Airplanes and especially automobiles were vehicles that the effort was applied to as well....Especially autos...The auto industry design concept came alive in that era and went full force forward to jump ahead of the competition. As many of us know the 30's were serious economic times and design was called upon as an effort to stimulate sales. Simply one of the effects from the great depression. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:12 AM Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. Reply Edit AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:37 AM M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Driver8, as mentioned there are still quite a number of the old streamlined locomotives still in existence. So basically they won't be extinct. While most may be in museums, some are in running condition. Some of you might be familiar with these: [1] There are two Pennsy E-units that were beautifully restored and running. [2] There are a pair of E-units in New York Central livery along with an E8 painted in Red and Silver! They were in a Tennessee museum just a few years ago. [3] The rebuilt UP E units that have hauled specials. [4] The Southern Railway FP7s that are still running, (I believe it's a pair) [5] Somewhere in New Jersey there's an E unit painted in the "Erie" railroad scheme. [6] There is a tourist line in Branson, Missouri. One of the locomotives is an F-unit, and of course, there are still F units in running if not rough condition. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:31 AM Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). Reply Edit railman Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Midwest 718 posts Posted by railman on Monday, November 29, 2004 11:53 PM oh, driver 8, prepare yourself for an onslaugh of heated discussion- the sad fate of most streamliners were the scrapper's torch. Sad! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts what happened to the streamliners? Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 29, 2004 10:48 PM Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! driver8 on the BNSF mainline in Iowa, USA !!! Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: driver8 Posted: 29 Nov 2004, 22:48:37 Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks !
QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms).
QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking.
QUOTE: Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives.
Originally posted by driver8 Hello, Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 2:30 PM Actually, there is a surprisingly large number of late EMD F's still in revenue service, here and there around the continent. There are quite a number of E's and F's in private ownership, too. Some of the classes are just gone, though, or so nearly so as to make no matter -- the Alcos, the Baldwins, and the F-Ms. Jamie Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Wednesday, April 6, 2005 11:58 AM At the Toy Train Museum in Strasburg PE they have 2 working GG1s now in Pennsy Tuscan red again. [:o)][:I] Originally posted by AntonioFP45 M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 3:15 PM ....And maybe, just maybe a deal might have been worked out to retain the sensible and popular routes {if Amtrak was in existence then, or just let the RR's operate them}, with just enough subsidy provided to the operating railroads to keep their operation out of the red...but, that subject was kicked around on here a couple of weeks ago...I think it does sound sensible though. Surely the details could have been put together. Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. Yep! Very sad situation. I saw a clip on t.v about the Zephyr. People were very, very upset when the petition was filed. The Zephyr had a loyal clientele, but as stated even on occasions when nearly every was seat filled, the losses were very high. It's a trajedy that Amtrak wasn't created in the late 1950s when most of the railroads were complaining about the high losses. With the mindset the country had back then, Amtrak would probably have been very successful. Make a profit? NO! But with many people still traveling by train then (including congressmen and govt. officials) , the support would very likely have been strong. Ah! What could have been................................. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:08 PM Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:28 AM Wow ! thanks for all of the insightful information. i guess like everything else, the "bottom line" is the "bottom line"....... i really appreciate a resource like this forum. complete regards, driver8 Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:23 AM ....And can't we say not many forms of passenger transportation really does make money by itself.... Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. You're right tabiery, except on just one point. Many of the long distance trains that were still running in the 1960s were running full! Especially the New York to Florida Trains of the ACL, SCL (SCL in 1967). Problem was that even with every seat occupied the railroads were losing huge amounts of money on them as passenger trains were and still are very labor intensive. Passenger train ticket revenues didn't make up for crew costs, passenger car cleaning and repair maintenance, insurance, and food service, [;)] "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:42 AM ....Streamliners in railroads were not alone in the effort of securing customers back when "modern" looking conveyances were being concieved....Airplanes and especially automobiles were vehicles that the effort was applied to as well....Especially autos...The auto industry design concept came alive in that era and went full force forward to jump ahead of the competition. As many of us know the 30's were serious economic times and design was called upon as an effort to stimulate sales. Simply one of the effects from the great depression. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:12 AM Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. Reply Edit AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:37 AM M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Driver8, as mentioned there are still quite a number of the old streamlined locomotives still in existence. So basically they won't be extinct. While most may be in museums, some are in running condition. Some of you might be familiar with these: [1] There are two Pennsy E-units that were beautifully restored and running. [2] There are a pair of E-units in New York Central livery along with an E8 painted in Red and Silver! They were in a Tennessee museum just a few years ago. [3] The rebuilt UP E units that have hauled specials. [4] The Southern Railway FP7s that are still running, (I believe it's a pair) [5] Somewhere in New Jersey there's an E unit painted in the "Erie" railroad scheme. [6] There is a tourist line in Branson, Missouri. One of the locomotives is an F-unit, and of course, there are still F units in running if not rough condition. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:31 AM Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). Reply Edit railman Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Midwest 718 posts Posted by railman on Monday, November 29, 2004 11:53 PM oh, driver 8, prepare yourself for an onslaugh of heated discussion- the sad fate of most streamliners were the scrapper's torch. Sad! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts what happened to the streamliners? Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 29, 2004 10:48 PM Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! driver8 on the BNSF mainline in Iowa, USA !!! Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by AntonioFP45 M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 3:15 PM ....And maybe, just maybe a deal might have been worked out to retain the sensible and popular routes {if Amtrak was in existence then, or just let the RR's operate them}, with just enough subsidy provided to the operating railroads to keep their operation out of the red...but, that subject was kicked around on here a couple of weeks ago...I think it does sound sensible though. Surely the details could have been put together. Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 1:58 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. Yep! Very sad situation. I saw a clip on t.v about the Zephyr. People were very, very upset when the petition was filed. The Zephyr had a loyal clientele, but as stated even on occasions when nearly every was seat filled, the losses were very high. It's a trajedy that Amtrak wasn't created in the late 1950s when most of the railroads were complaining about the high losses. With the mindset the country had back then, Amtrak would probably have been very successful. Make a profit? NO! But with many people still traveling by train then (including congressmen and govt. officials) , the support would very likely have been strong. Ah! What could have been................................. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply CSSHEGEWISCH Member sinceMarch 2016 From: Burbank IL (near Clearing) 13,540 posts Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:08 PM Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it. The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:28 AM Wow ! thanks for all of the insightful information. i guess like everything else, the "bottom line" is the "bottom line"....... i really appreciate a resource like this forum. complete regards, driver8 Reply Edit Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 11:23 AM ....And can't we say not many forms of passenger transportation really does make money by itself.... Quentin Reply AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:43 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. You're right tabiery, except on just one point. Many of the long distance trains that were still running in the 1960s were running full! Especially the New York to Florida Trains of the ACL, SCL (SCL in 1967). Problem was that even with every seat occupied the railroads were losing huge amounts of money on them as passenger trains were and still are very labor intensive. Passenger train ticket revenues didn't make up for crew costs, passenger car cleaning and repair maintenance, insurance, and food service, [;)] "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply Modelcar Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Muncie, Indiana...Orig. from Pennsylvania 13,456 posts Posted by Modelcar on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:42 AM ....Streamliners in railroads were not alone in the effort of securing customers back when "modern" looking conveyances were being concieved....Airplanes and especially automobiles were vehicles that the effort was applied to as well....Especially autos...The auto industry design concept came alive in that era and went full force forward to jump ahead of the competition. As many of us know the 30's were serious economic times and design was called upon as an effort to stimulate sales. Simply one of the effects from the great depression. Quentin Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:12 AM Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away. Reply Edit AntonioFP45 Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Good ol' USA 9,642 posts Posted by AntonioFP45 on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:37 AM M.W Hemphill, Outstanding info. Driver8, as mentioned there are still quite a number of the old streamlined locomotives still in existence. So basically they won't be extinct. While most may be in museums, some are in running condition. Some of you might be familiar with these: [1] There are two Pennsy E-units that were beautifully restored and running. [2] There are a pair of E-units in New York Central livery along with an E8 painted in Red and Silver! They were in a Tennessee museum just a few years ago. [3] The rebuilt UP E units that have hauled specials. [4] The Southern Railway FP7s that are still running, (I believe it's a pair) [5] Somewhere in New Jersey there's an E unit painted in the "Erie" railroad scheme. [6] There is a tourist line in Branson, Missouri. One of the locomotives is an F-unit, and of course, there are still F units in running if not rough condition. "I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!" Reply daveklepper Member sinceJune 2002 20,096 posts Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:31 AM Of course the streamliner concept is alive and well, The Acela is clearly a streamline train, and so is the rebuilt Rohr Turboliner. Even the Colorado Railcar can be called streamlined. But for the classic, enjoy The Canadian, exept for the locomotives. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:37 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by driver8 What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Simple answer is the same thing that caused the demise of Steam.....Cost. But this time, not the cost to run them, but the cost to make them. In cost saving measures, they decided to cut the amount of metal to shroud the loco to bare minimums. this resulted int he ever popular modern style of boxie Engines (Powered boxcars), where the metal shrouds just barely cover the internals and a cab was an afterthought (or so it seems, just look where they stuck the bathrooms). Reply Edit railman Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Midwest 718 posts Posted by railman on Monday, November 29, 2004 11:53 PM oh, driver 8, prepare yourself for an onslaugh of heated discussion- the sad fate of most streamliners were the scrapper's torch. Sad! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts what happened to the streamliners? Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 29, 2004 10:48 PM Hello, Sure, I understand the progression from Steam to Diesel, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable has an answer for me. What caused the demise of all of the beautiful F and Alco units ? (among others) Save for the modern FP Amtrak locomotives, all of the rest are so similar looking. Also, am I incorrect in my belief that there are more steamers preserved than streamliners? Of course, to me they both have an important place in railroading. great forum, thanks ! driver8 on the BNSF mainline in Iowa, USA !!! Reply Edit Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Quentin
QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH Back in 1969, when Western Pacific and Rio Grande filed for discontinuance of their share of the California Zephyr, it was established that the train had an operating ratio of 125% even when it was sold out. The discontinuance petition wasn't filed because the train was empty but because the railroads couldn't afford to keep operating it.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
QUOTE: Originally posted by tabiery Boeing 737, 707 and Douglas DC-8 DC-9 jet airplanes revolutionized travel. Three day trips were now five hours. And the Interstate highway system was the final dagger in the heart of the streamliners. After the mid 1960's long distance trains operated almost empty. Safe, fast, convenient and courteous air service blew rail travel away.
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