While researching the Pennsy's history, I came across this Wikipedia article about Operation Pastorius. Both Horseshoe Curve and the Juniata shops were targeted by German Saboteurs during World War II. The mission failed after two of the men sold the others out.
What if the German's had succeed? Where would the rail traffic be rerouted? The Erie, C&O, NYC and B&O? Could Pennsy have used the old New Portage Railroad line as a bypass until the curve was repaired?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
GP-9_Man11786 While researching the Pennsy's history, I came across this Wikipedia article about Operation Pastorius. Both Horseshoe Curve and the Juniata shops were targeted by German Saboteurs during World War II. The mission failed after two of the men sold the others out. What if the German's had succeed? Where would the rail traffic be rerouted? The Erie, C&O, NYC and B&O? Could Pennsy have used the old New Portage Railroad line as a bypass until the curve was repaired?
Unless the entire mountain side were brought down on top of the right of way - any normal amount of damage would be repaired within 24 to 48 hours. Railroad engineering personnel perform wonders when necessary to reopen the main tracks.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Ditto to the above 2 answers, esp. BaltACD's, and the use of the Muleshoe line.
If you look at a PRR system map of that era (see, for example: http://www.mappery.com/maps/Pennsylvania-Railroad-System-Map.jpg ), you'll see that the PRR could have stitched together an alternate route or two entirely on its own rails, mainly by using the Buffalo line north from Harrisburg to Driftwood or Corry, then west and south along the Allegheny River to Pittsburgh, as well as to its namesake terminal and then via other railroads. Definitely would have been far more cumbersome than it looks - nasty grades, etc. - but better than nothing.
A 'better' - i.e., more disruptive - target would have been the 'bottleneck' tunnels at Gallitzin, or one of the bridges to the west between there and Johnstown.
- Paul North.
ndbprrIt would have been a wake up call like 9/11 designed to affect US morale more then anything. PRR traffic would have delays but muleshoe curve ran fron Galitzen to Holidaysburg and would have allowed priority movements while repairs were being done.
Anything any German saboteur could have done here in the US wouldn't have amounted to more than a pinprick, something that hurt a bit but didn't mean much in the long run.
It just shows how crazy Adolf was to declare war on the US, making an enemy of an industrial colossus who with the British Isles as an unsinkable aircraft carrier could get at him, and having no effective way to get back at us.
Firelock76Anything any German saboteur could have done here in the US wouldn't have amounted to more than a pinprick, something that hurt a bit but didn't mean much in the long run.
Indeed - neither Germany nor Japan had the ability to inflict any serious damage, and that's the case today as well when it comes to current terrorists. But the mere fact that they can inflict any damage can be telling on morale.
Sometimes I tend to think that some of our enemies don't understand just how big and diverse this country really is. Kinda like when I say I'm from New York, and people picture skyscrapers. NYC and LA are a long way from Podunk, Iowa, in many ways.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Looking at this from the point of view of a military type who studied explosives and demolitions:
If all six of the Pastorius agents had carried as much explosive as possible, they might have had enough to drop one major bridge or tear up a hundred feet or so of multi-track roadbed. ONE iron bomb dropped from a B-17 could have done just as much damage. Since the German agents were supposed to attack multiple targets...
The whole thing was a scheme to spread panic among the Chicken Littles. It wouldn't have. Just as wartime news censorship kept the Japanese from learning what happened to their balloon bombs, it would have kept the Germans (and the civilian population) from knowing that anything had happened to the Pennsy.
The balloon bombs actually did more damage than Pastorius could have - but the lack of reaction caused the Japanese to give up the effort.
Chuck [USAF(Ret)]
I've always thought the plan was ludicrous. Yes, the news would have panicked a few insecure people; but I doubt that those guys could have inflicted much more actual damage than PRR would sustain from one train wreck. Destroy the Juniata Shops? That would have taken a massed raid by about a hundred B-17's or B-24's with precision accuracy. Just how many four engine bombers did ol' Adolph have, and how was he going to get them to central Pennsylvania? Destroy Horseshoe Curve? Maybe with a trainload of explosives, a couple hundred earth movers, and a couple months of uninterrupted effort by several hundred workers. Maybe they could have blasted one or more of the tunnels at Gallitzin. Could they completely disable the Pennsylvania Railroad? Not likely.
Supposedly, they were also supposed to take out the C&O's Ohio River bridge. Not likely that they could have carried enough explosives to do that.
Any damage they might have created would have simply been met by the same reaction the bombing of Pearl Harbor received. And we all know how well that turned out for Japan.
Tom
tree68 Indeed - neither Germany nor Japan had the ability to inflict any serious damage, and that's the case today as well when it comes to current terrorists. But the mere fact that they can inflict any damage can be telling on morale.
tree68 Sometimes I tend to think that some of our enemies don't understand just how big and diverse this country really is. Kinda like when I say I'm from New York, and people picture skyscrapers. NYC and LA are a long way from Podunk, Iowa, in many ways.
Absolutely - even our friends and visitors, too. A running and oft-repeated joke in our family is how many visitors from Europe - mainly Germany, interestingly enough - think that Texas is just a day's drive or so away from Philadelphia. Two families of our current neighbors are from that country as well, and likewise report similar misperceptions.
There is one fill/ embankment on that line which is historically and documented as being unstable, and so might have suffered a lot of damage from a small amount of explosives - but I'll not name or specifically identify it here, out of an abundance of caution from giving anyone bad ideas.
When I was a kid and my family took a vacation to Miami on the East Coast Champion and we departed Jacksonville at 7 or 8 AM - In my mind we were in Florida, we were almost in Miami - arriving in Miami near 5 PM rapidly dispelled that belief.
With today's Interstate system it is a hard 17 hour run (I don't let grass grow and stop only for gas) from my sons home in Topeka to my home in Maryland.
BaltACD I'm side tracking a bit, but you're right about the size of Florida. When I drive from Richmond VA to Estero FL the most time-consuming state for me to transit is Florida. I always forget how big it is.
Maybe it's because I'm originally from New Jersey. One of the things about Jersey is anywhere you want to go usually isn't more than two hours away, if that. You get spoiled a bit as far as distances are concerned.
Getting back to war and sabotage, it was a young Commander Isoruku Yamamoto who was stunned at the size of the United State when he traveled through here coast-to-coast in the 1920's. Later, as Admiral Yamamoto, he said it was insanity for Japan to declare war on the US. But of course, no-one listened.
I read a very interesting interview with Saburo Sakai, the top surviving Japanese ace of World War Two. He was a Japanese Navy enlisted pilot, a petty officer, when he and his squadron mates got the news of Pearl Harbor. His outfit wasn't involved. He said he and his buddys knew they were dead. As far as they were concerned the Japanese leaders were idiots to make war on America. In this case the enlisted guys had a lot more sense than the guys with the gold braid!
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." - quote from Yamamoto (supposedly) - well, maybe not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto's_sleeping_giant_quote
Saburo Sakai co-wrote part of an interesting book on the Zero fighter and his experiences with them during the war, co-authored with Martin Caidin and 2 others (Okumiya and Horikoshi) that I read several times way back when:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabur%C5%8D_Sakai
http://www.amazon.com/Zero-Masatake-Okumiya/dp/0743444914
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=13787122294&searchurl=an%3DOKUMIYA%252C%2BMASATAKE%253B%2BAND%2BCAIDIN%252C%2BMARTIN
Before the Japanese attacked the United States, the highranking-military had calculated that if Japan had not won by some time in 1943 there was no possibility of winning. after the battle of the Coral Sea, in 1942, because so many ships--and skilled pilots--were lost, the same people knew that the war was lost. They had had no idea that their code had been broken or that our ships that had been damaged in earlier action could be returned to battle action so quickly.
The Germans had agreed with the Japanese that Germany would declare war on the United States after Japan declared war on us.
Johnny
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