America's railroads: The "poster boy" for graffiti vandalism.

[jimnorton]

I think there is an underlying sentiment here that the average person does not have the sense to get off railroad tracks and must be protected.   And really, that's no surprise.  We have had trains not even requiring a headlight during daylight to the point now where a locomotive has three lights lite constantly and two of them flash! 

Whether you are a vandal, a new bride or a photographer you have the sense to avoid being in the path of an oncoming train.  That's why efforts should be directed towards stopping the activity of trespassers who actually hamper operations, safety and cost the industry money.   Only makes sense.

[BaltACD]

Graffiti doesn't delay operating trains - mangled vehicles and the bodies of trespassers do.  Graffiti happens to stopped equipment with the trespassers vacating the property after their 'art' is complete.  The trespassers that get struck think the railroad is their own personal short cut to their destination, not realizing they will get their ultimate destination (the destination of us all) much sooner than they had planned.

Operations is not about esthetics, it is about economics.  Graffiti is a esthetic problem, painting over the results of graffiti then makes it a economic issue, leaving it alone when it doesn't obstruct required markings takes the economics out of the issue and lets it offend the easily offended.

[jimnorton]

The last time I painted a room it took me about 8 hours, working no higher than a foot or two off the ground and useing only one color.   Doing a little math thats about 384 sq ft for a 12 x 12 room.

 

So, the question begs:  How long would it require to paint the 1,335 sq ft masterpiece below.  If it were only me and based on the above it would require 27 hours. 

 

Just another illustration of the woefully non-existant security on the nation's rails.  18 hours pretty much is enough time to do any level of sabatoge allowed.  Nobody is minding the store.

 

[Norm48327]

Have you considered getting a job a s a railroad special agent? Then perhaps you could do something constructive to stop it.

[BaltACD]

jimnorton

The last time I painted a room it took me about 8 hours, working no higher than a foot or two off the ground and useing only one color.   Doing a little math thats about 384 sq ft for a 12 x 12 room.

 

So, the question begs:  How long would it require to paint the 1,335 sq ft masterpiece below.  If it were only me and based on the above it would require 27 hours. 

 

Just another illustration of the woefully non-existant security on the nation's rails.  18 hours pretty much is enough time to do any level of sabatoge allowed.  Nobody is minding the store.

 

 

Don't forget thousands of autoracks were stored for months on end in the period of 2008-2011 when all the 'pop' went out of the automotive industry.  Stored cars were on 'out of the way' tracks on Class 1 carriers as well as the Class 1 carriers leasing track space in out of the way locations on short lines.  More than enough time to create a 'masterpiece'.

[tree68]

jimnorton

So, the question begs:  How long would it require to paint the 1,335 sq ft masterpiece below.  If it were only me and based on the above it would require 27 hours. 

As has been noted numerous times, the cars are not always parked on railroad property.  In the case of this auto hauler, odds are it was parked in a holding yard for some auto plant or another, waiting to be loaded.

I seriously doubt this was the work of one tagger.  Three of them working together knock the time down to 9 hours, although I'd bet it's even less than that.  These folks work fast.

I'd be more concerned as to where they got their paint - I'm betting they didn't pay for it...

[Euclid]

Yes, that looks very complex and labor intensive.  I recall that old article in Trains Magazine about graffiti.  I have it, so I might look for it.  But I recall a graffiti drawing in that article that I thought looked quite amazing.

[BaltACD]

Moscow combats tagging so well

 

http://on.rt.com/cksmxq

[edblysard]

I figure a two or three person “crew” a few ladders and assigned sections, 2 maybe 3 hours max.

[Murphy Siding]

BaltACD

Moscow combats tagging so well

 

http://on.rt.com/cksmxq

 

 To be honest,  I couldn't tell if the train had been tagged, or if that was all part of some modern paint scheme.

[BaltACD]

Murphy Siding

 

BaltACD

Moscow combats tagging so well

 

http://on.rt.com/cksmxq

 

 

 

 

 To be honest,  I couldn't tell if the train had been tagged, or if that was all part of some modern paint scheme.

 

 

According to the article, a gang boarded the train, set the emergency brakes and did the tagging in 20 minutes to the occupied passenger train.

[jimnorton]

One modification to the modern day auto rack which would greatly, if not completely, eliminate the potential for vandalism would be the redesign of the bottom panel.  By increasing the size and number of openings in the panel, less surface area would be available to have as a "canvas" while still stopping rocks.  Note that tagging rarely goes beyond this bottom panel.

 

This would render Auto trains and the related yards useless as targets for vandals eliminating much trespassing from said areas.

[BaltACD]

Been there done that!

[jimnorton]

This is what gripes me the most.  Here is a great looking KCS rack.  But who steals the show?  What do you see here:  the message of the emerging railroad industry or the message of the vandal? 

[zugmann]

I see an autorack. 

 

?

[jimnorton]

Look closer....there is almost 50' of destruction of private property there!  What I see is a modern and impressive piece of railroad equipment reduced to the regard of an alley wall.

[Paul of Covington]

Destruction?   Defaced, unsightly, but it still works.

[jimnorton]

Paul:  Granted.  But based on that rationale why was the car even painted and adorned with KCS logos in the first place? 

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Really Jim I really don't understand the issue.  Let's move on.

[BaltACD]

jimnorton

Paul:  Granted.  But based on that rationale why was the car even painted and adorned with KCS logos in the first place? 

 

It was painted to keep it from rusting.  The KCS car initials and number are painted on the car 'floor'.  The KCS logos on the rack, identify KCS as the rack owner.  The rack panels appear to be galvanized metal - unpainted. 

[Euclid]

I believe that railroad management generally takes an anti-graffiti position that is as strong or stronger than Jim Norton’s position on graffiti.  Others have said that railroads don’t care about graffiti because it does not interfere with transportation.  It does not interfere with transportation, but it sends a sour message in marketing terms.  It is a part of the transportation transaction.  It imposes a cost.  It works in the arena of image and what brings shippers to a shipping company.

Jim Norton mentioned in another thread that the topic of graffiti has engaged a surprisingly large response.  Indeed it has, but there are some interesting observations to make about the response.  Up until very recently, the topic of graffiti has been banned because it might glorify illegal behavior.  This graffiti thread by Jim Norton was the first thread after the ban was lifted. 

However, even during the ban, several graffiti threads were started and persisted for a time.  In any of those threads, I don’t recall ever seeing the viewpoint that the industry does not see graffiti as a problem, or sees it only as a small problem.   That position seems to have been born with this current thread and the one that has followed.

In the graffiti threads during the ban, there was near universal contempt for graffiti makers as being vandals and destroyers of private property.  It was that contempt that made the threads so vitriolic that the topic was deemed to always cause flame wars.  It is nice to see the topic finally freely discussed here on the forum.  It is a little lesson on the wisdom of banning topics because the topics are thought to be the problem rather than the behavior of the participants in the discussion.    

[ccltrains]

Making the holes in the bottom panel larger to reduce the canvas for the "artists" potentially would let spray paint to hit the cars inside.  A possible solution would be to put a second panel several inches inside to give the protection  but limit the canvas area.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

A week or so ago I saw a van trailer moving along SR 611 in the Tobyhanna, PA area (coudn't get a photo quick enough).  It was lettered for "Lincoln Logistics" in large puffy letters, the same style most graffiti artists use.  I suppose the owner either liked that style, or was trying to beat them to the punch . . .

- Paul North. 

[schlimm]

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/singapur-deutschen-graffiti-sprayern-drohen-stockhiebe-und-gefaengnis-13280068.html

[from an article in FAZ online]:

Here is how one nation dealt with graffiti vandalism on trains.   In this case, it was two young German tourists who sprayed a subway train in Singapore.  They were caught and face "lashes and several years in prison."   I suspect if that were the punishment here, it would quickly have a chilling effect on that form of vandalism.

[Murphy Siding]

schlimm

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/singapur-deutschen-graffiti-sprayern-drohen-stockhiebe-und-gefaengnis-13280068.html

[from an article in FAZ online]:

Here is how one nation dealt with graffiti vandalism on trains.   In this case, it was two young German tourists who sprayed a subway train in Singapore.  They were caught and face "lashes and several years in prison."   I suspect if that were the punishment here, it would quickly have a chilling effect on that form of vandalism.

 

  Would it also have an effect on that provision in the constitution forbidding cruel and unusual punishment as well?

[Deggesty]

It certainly would be unusual. Considering the pain inflicted, some would consider it cruel. What about "let the punishment fit the crime," and sentence the criminals to removing their work?

[BaltACD]

schlimm

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/singapur-deutschen-graffiti-sprayern-drohen-stockhiebe-und-gefaengnis-13280068.html

[from an article in FAZ online]:

Here is how one nation dealt with graffiti vandalism on trains.   In this case, it was two young German tourists who sprayed a subway train in Singapore.  They were caught and face "lashes and several years in prison."   I suspect if that were the punishment here, it would quickly have a chilling effect on that form of vandalism.

 

Isn't that the same level of punishment that is assessed in Singapore for having chewing gum get deposited on a street or sidewalk?

[schlimm]

Murphy Siding

 

 

schlimm

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaft/kriminalitaet/singapur-deutschen-graffiti-sprayern-drohen-stockhiebe-und-gefaengnis-13280068.html

[from an article in FAZ online]:

Here is how one nation dealt with graffiti vandalism on trains.   In this case, it was two young German tourists who sprayed a subway train in Singapore.  They were caught and face "lashes and several years in prison."   I suspect if that were the punishment here, it would quickly have a chilling effect on that form of vandalism.

 

 

 

 

  Would it also have an effect on that provision in the constitution forbidding cruel and unusual punishment as well?

 

 

It would likely be unconstitutional and repellant to most Americans.   But in posting this, I was not being entirely serious.  I should have looked for the sarcasm emo, I suppose?

[tree68]

schlimm

It would likely be unconstitutional and repellant to most Americans.   But in posting this, I was not being entirely serious.  I should have looked for the sarcasm emo, I suppose?

Or perhaps sarchasm - the gap between what was intended and what was perceived?

Caning taggers, while not acceptable here, would certainly send a message to potential taggers.  No mere slap on the hand here - you're gonna feel this, very emphatically...

I think I've mentioned this before - an old jailer decided that instead of serving troublesom inmates bread and water, he'd serve them baby food.  More nutritious, for one thing, but most important - the troublemakers couldn't get out of jail and brag about how they'd been put on bread and water.  Not many wanted to boast how they'd eaten baby food in jail...