tree68 John WRThe fact of the matter is that government does own all transportation routes with one exception: Railroads. And this walks right into what FM was preaching. Roads, waterways, and the airways are "open access." As long as you meet the appropriate requirements, you can use them (usually for a fee, one way or another). Railroads are privately owned ROWs whose use is restricted to the owner, save specific agreements.
John WRThe fact of the matter is that government does own all transportation routes with one exception: Railroads.
And this walks right into what FM was preaching. Roads, waterways, and the airways are "open access." As long as you meet the appropriate requirements, you can use them (usually for a fee, one way or another).
Railroads are privately owned ROWs whose use is restricted to the owner, save specific agreements.
Don't turn railroads into an open access model it has failed everywhere it is tried. Railroads are integrated model. If nationalization were to happen it should be both the tracks and operations not just tracks.
Railroad to Freedom
First, stop comparing the US to Canada and other countries. The US is different than the others in terms of government, politics, social and other issues. Our people do not accept so much of what happens elsewhere because we are so independent of the world. As for monopolies, we have them in our rail system in that with the Big 6 Class Ones there is very little town to town etc, but much more competition region to region and markets to markets. In towns where there used to be more than one railroad, there were usually competitive rates but today a town is held hostage by whichever Class One serves it or the shortline servicing it. Government agencies in states and municipalities might own the track and lease it to an operator but the Class Ones all own their own tracks, etc. We do have a hodge podge of rules, regulations and rails and philosophies contradicting and complementing inside the mix. But as far as a totally government owned and operated rail system? Never will happen. Nor should it.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6But as far as a totally government owned and operated rail system? Never will happen. Nor should it.
I wonder what my pay would be as a gov't employee? Probably get more vacation time, that's for sure.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Could be a lot less...like zero as you could very likely be out of job, especially if you are below the top 5% of seniority on your roster...you may in fact be below 50% on a national roster!
henry6 Could be a lot less...like zero as you could very likely be out of job, especially if you are below the top 5% of seniority on your roster...you may in fact be below 50% on a national roster!
Yeah, I doubt it.
henry6 First, stop comparing the US to Canada and other countries. The US is different than the others in terms of government, politics, social and other issues. Our people do not accept so much of what happens elsewhere because we are so independent of the world.
First, stop comparing the US to Canada and other countries. The US is different than the others in terms of government, politics, social and other issues. Our people do not accept so much of what happens elsewhere because we are so independent of the world.
Sure, tell that to the Arabs.
Irrespective of the merits of nationalization of the railroads vs. the current arrangement, which I favor, the federal government, with nearly $17 trillion of debt, would be hard pressed to find the money to nationalize the rails. If the national debt is not a show stopper, adding in unfunded liabilities of $46 trillion would do the trick.
ontheBNSF tree68 John WRThe fact of the matter is that government does own all transportation routes with one exception: Railroads. And this walks right into what FM was preaching. Roads, waterways, and the airways are "open access." As long as you meet the appropriate requirements, you can use them (usually for a fee, one way or another). Railroads are privately owned ROWs whose use is restricted to the owner, save specific agreements. Don't turn railroads into an open access model it has failed everywhere it is tried. Railroads are integrated model. If nationalization were to happen it should be both the tracks and operations not just tracks.
I think "failed everywhere it's been tried" is not exactly a fair statement as much of Europe uses the open access model, at least partially. But I grant you not all of the examples have been stellar succeses.
In the US most government owned transit systems are actually operated by private companies anyway, Amtrak obv. being an exception (although it competes for transit operations contracts as well).
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
As a counter proposal why not consider privitizing some segments of the federal government, eg, the Dept. of Commerce.
ontheBNSFDon't turn railroads into an open access model it has failed everywhere it is tried.
True.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I cringe when I hear or read "open access railroads". It would be a nightmare to set up, maintain, and operate! How would you determine rights and superiority, who takes siding for meets and passes, and at what speed is permissible per train commodity? "Train whose owner pays the highest rate has priority over trains paying lower rate except if lower rate reflects discount from higher rates. If rates are equal the dispatcher will instruct the conductors of trains involved to flip a silver dollar provided by an independent source who must be present to oversee the coin toss. If no independent coin source can be found, then WWF rules will apply." Yeah, sure, open access would be a real treat. To watch and bet on.
Personally, I think we should leave well enough alone. However, how about proposals to set up a quasi-government unit to maintain and build infrastructure, with specific segments having exclusive contracted operators (i.e., the Big 7 and/or other rail operators)? There would be no conflicts over rights and superiority in operation, as BNSF or UP or whoever would have exclusive use of a given route. There could be some major benefits to the railroads: no property taxes, no maintenance expenses in exchange for fees to operate.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Personally, I think we should leave well enough alone. However, how about proposals to set up a quasi-government unit to maintain and build infrastructure, with specific segments having exclusive contracted operators (i.e., the Big 7 and/or other rail operators)? There would be no conflicts over rights and superiority in operation, as BNSF or UP or whoever would have exclusive use of a given route. There could be some major benefits to the railroads: no property taxes, no maintenance expenses in exchange for fees to operate.
Again NO separation at all. Railroads are an integrated model and should remain an integrated model. Quit suggesting it.
Big business claims they don't want government interference or control and therefore would not accept or promote this idea, SCHLIMM. However, they have no trouble coming to the government, hat in left hand, right hand extended palm up, and ask for help while denouncing government interference to all within earshot. In effect, they would welcome something like this in the backrooms, work toward keeping it as quiet as possible but tout that they are willing to work with governments to solve problems. Clear?
diningcar As a counter proposal why not consider privitizing some segments of the federal government, eg, the Dept. of Commerce.
Considering what is required for campaign financing - hasn't Congress already be privitized? The US has the best form of government money can buy; it is bought and sold daily at all levels.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimmno property taxes,
I suspect you'd see some pushback from the beneficiaries of property taxes - local governments.
zugmannI wonder what my pay would be as a gov't employee? Probably get more vacation time, that's for sure.
Zugman,
I don't know where you live. You could check out Amtrak, the Federal Railroad Administraton, a local commuter railroad if your state has one and your state's Department of Transportation.
I also don't know which railroad you work for. You may find out you are better off where you are or you might want to consider moving to another private railroad company.
John
henry6I cringe when I hear or read "open access railroads". It would be a nightmare to set up, maintain, and operate!
I'm not really advocating open access, Henry. The Government certainly can and does limit access on the transportation routes it owns and operates. I cannot get on my bicycle and ride along many state highways, any interstate highway or toll road. And restrictions on air ways and water ways are even more severe. Were the government to own our rail lines it certainly could restrict access as appropriate. For example, in the Northeast Corridor Amtrak allows freight trains but only during certain hours.
John WR zugmannI wonder what my pay would be as a gov't employee? Probably get more vacation time, that's for sure. Zugman, I don't know where you live. You could check out Amtrak, the Federal Railroad Administraton, a local commuter railroad if your state has one and your state's Department of Transportation. I also don't know which railroad you work for. You may find out you are better off where you are or you might want to consider moving to another private railroad company. John
I always keep my eyes open.
And when the government shuts down over a feud in Congress, the government owned railroad system would shut down, and the entire transportation system of the country would head for ,melt-down. Maybe not such a good idea.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
John WR henry6I cringe when I hear or read "open access railroads". It would be a nightmare to set up, maintain, and operate! I'm not really advocating open access, Henry. The Government certainly can and does limit access on the transportation routes it owns and operates. I cannot get on my bicycle and ride along many state highways, any interstate highway or toll road. And restrictions on air ways and water ways are even more severe. Were the government to own our rail lines it certainly could restrict access as appropriate. For example, in the Northeast Corridor Amtrak allows freight trains but only during certain hours.
Ditto. Given the pushback seen here however, it's unlikely it would ever happen.
But there are models that could be drawn from. Airports deal with a plethora of airlines and their aircraft every day. There is careful scheduling so everyone gets slotted. Hiccups do occur - if one major airport experiences significant delays, the ripples can spread across the country. As John alludes, there are stringent requirements for being a river pilot, or an airline pilot. In fact, there are stringent requirements for being a locomotive engineer - including knowledge of the territory. There's no reason that this would change.
The railroads have already done a version of open access, if you will, with Railbox - "next load, any road."
But the whole topic is fodder for another thread. As for nationalizing the railroads, nah.
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