Thanks, Ed! This all makes sense. It just changes the layout from what I said (which I will withdraw, just because it's inaccurate), but still reflects the same cause: the following train (now determined to be the manifest) didn't comply with the restricted speed rule (that "half the range of vision" part means that visibility around the curve should not have been an issue).
Two very important questions about the manifest crew's behavior will be: what was his speed going past 222.2 (should have been 15 or less)? And did he acknowledge the signal he received over the radio (as is still a CSX rule, I believe)? Event recorders and recordings of radio transmissions should hold those answers.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
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Carl:
You have it. It helps if you look at Google maps - satellite view to see the layout of everything. Typically, the dispatcher will instruct the trains that they will be holding at Suman for an "event", in this case it would have been Q161 running around. Now, I would have to look at the map to see what road crossings would have been fouled east. I know there is one east of Indiana Rt 2, but with "restrictive" aspect, the train could have proceeded past 222.2 (four deuces as it is often called) and proceeded at 15mph or 1/2 stopping distance.
Now, here is the the obvious issue. Were they in compliance with "restrictive"? I am not sure if locomotive event recorders hold verbal acknowledgements such as the signals. BTW, CSX does require calling out of signals. Also, the Ethanol train typically would have said something to the effect of "CSX train K___, engine 1234, stopped at MP 225.5 with 5000 feet of train."
As the NTSB inspector told me this is either signal malfunction or (he didnt complete his sentence), to which I said "Crew fatigue?" and he nodded his head.
This was a very unfortunate location for this to have occurred, due to the sweeping curve. Q395 would not have seen the train stopped until perhaps 100-200 yards. If the train did receive a false indication at 222.2, then the train would have been proceeding at track speed, unless he/she was aware of movements ahead.
The following Q161 would have been running up on Q395's train and noticed it had stopped, probably rather abruptly and might have thought "what the heck?" but would not have had a visually until the 100-200 yards. So, if Q161 was near the front of Q395, it would have had absolutely no idea of the impending danger until rounding the curve. The speed of 57mph indicates they might have reacted and the speed had dropped from 60 to 57.
It was a "Perfect Storm" for a massive derailment. Had there been no curve, the visability would have been better.
ed
Just one more comment about the derailment site. Something puzzled me and I still havent figured it out. Looking down from the bridge, there were 2 covered hopper grain cars on track 1...the same track as the intermodal Q161. These were a couple hundred yards from the derailment site. Those cars should have been in Q395 and on track 1. It puzzled me so much I took photos of the cars, with the undamaged intermodal cars in the background on the same track.
Any ideas here? Perhaps these were rerailed on to track 1.
Ed
When I am Wreckmaster at a derailment, I will put a lightly damaged car back on the nearest available track. If we had to right a car where it would be closer to the next track over, that is what we do. The goal is to get the tracks cleared quickly and with the least amount of damage to equipment and property.
Trackwalker97
That had to have been it. The cars didnt seem too damaged. Both had an orange sticker on the car. Do you have any idea of what that denoted?BTW, both mains are now open.
CSX is running trains thru the area at 25mph. That was quick. Meanwhile the cleanup in the field continues. Containers, in true intermodal fashion, are being loaded onto flatbed trailers, by two cranes.
For those interested, Trains has on their newswire a posting of photographs of the derailment.
MP173 For those interested, Trains has on their newswire a posting of photographs of the derailment. Ed
Cool photos, Ed!
Appreciate your sharing them with us. They were very fortunate that there were no worse injuries than those reported.
Nice coverage, photos and all.
Looking over your post on the event, it seems probable that the intermodal train may have been running alongside the tank train or at least very close. It could easily have been running on a clear signal and the cars coming off the tracks from the collision could have been going over right in front of them.
Jay
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
MP173 That had to have been it. The cars didnt seem too damaged. Both had an orange sticker on the car. Do you have any idea of what that denoted?BTW, both mains are now open. CSX is running trains thru the area at 25mph. That was quick. Meanwhile the cleanup in the field continues. Containers, in true intermodal fashion, are being loaded onto flatbed trailers, by two cranes. Ed
Those clean up crews are worth their price.
As far as the stickers- shop tags?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I was going to say bad-order tags; that orange seems to be a universal color for those tags these days. (CNW used to use plain red.) Those cars will be taken to a RIP track somewhere for inspection and repair. We used to bad-order anything that had been involved in a derailment, no matter how insignificantly.
Edit: I just had a look at your pictures, Ed; good coverage! Yes, that tag on the RRRX covered hopper is a bad-order tag; that's probably what the black line says. That was one of the cars lying on its side in the first picture I saw.
The three locomotives starring in various photographs there (5387, 5284, 320) were on Q161, the stack train. Not sure which unit that is in photograph 8. Perhaps it was CSXT 517, the lead unit on the Q395. That train's other unit should have been an IC unit.
Interesting though, but what if FRED is hanging off the hind end of a train on an adjacent track or even railroad? But in this case, if all was going right and the first train dumped in emergency, it is difficult to ascertain if the following train would have had the time to respond, apparently, in kind. GPS monitoring may be somewhat more helpful, but even then, I'm not sure.
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That's one reason why "half" is a critical and essential part of the requirement of "Restricted Speed" to be able to stop within half of the range of vision, etc.
- Paul North.
Exactly right, Paul!
I hadn't given any thought to the stack train's view of the pileup being blocked by standing equipment on the curve. Without question, the wreck should have broken the track on Track 1 and given a red signal to the stack train at 222.2, but I can only conjecture that he was already past that signal, and that warnings of a pileup, or possible pileup, couldn't be delivered in time to avert disaster.
But as for the manifest following the tanks, the only thing that will exonerate that crew is signal failure (I'm sure tests to determine that possibility have already been conducted). Perhaps fatigue is not to blame, but inattention for whatever reason is the most likely culprit. As we were taught in rules class, there are some times when "moving at Restricted Speed" means not moving at all.
I just returned from the derailment site. Today the NTSB and CSX ran a "re-enactment" train. For the most part it was like watching paint dry, but there were some interesting comments and observations.
CSX parked westbound K693-06 at the same location (just east of CR 400E). Since most ethanol trains are about the same length (mostly 81 cars) the end of the train stretched to a point very close to where the derailment occurred. Two westbounds (Q147-09 and a MT coal hopper train with BNSF power) came thru and then the G523-6 (power only) proceeded west on main 2 (at restricted speed). The train had NTSB personnel on board and it stopped at a point south of the bridge and marked the spot. Obviously they will take measurements.
The derailment occurred 132 feet north of the bridge. So, they will be able to make some calculations and measurements. Comments were made regarding Q161 - they only had about 3 seconds to spot the derailment. The crew basically got on the floor and rode it out. With only 3 seconds, that is about 264 feet of visability, or about 132 feet south of the bridge (it is called stereo bridge due to same images on both sides).
Personnel today indicated the crew was lucky there was an embankment the locomotives travelled up and that it was basically a sand structure. They went from 57 to 0 mph in a matter of about 200 feet or so. Someone like Paul can figure out the G forces and other engineering forces of that. We were told on Saturday that only 28 containers left the train. If so, that is amazing to me that the train came to a stop that quickly. Paul, perhaps you can explain this a little more.
It was a perfect day for re-enacting the derailment, with temps in the mid 50's and sunny conditions, almost similar to Friday. They wanted to have it about the same time as Friday and it was about an 40 minutes or so(203pm compared to 118pm).
I pretty much stayed on the bridge and kept out of the way. In the background, Hulcher continued doing their thing, today they were laying ballast in the ditch area.
MP173 [snipped] They went from 57 to 0 mph in a matter of about 200 feet or so. Someone like Paul can figure out the G forces and other engineering forces of that. We were told on Saturday that only 28 containers left the train. If so, that is amazing to me that the train came to a stop that quickly. Paul, perhaps you can explain this a little more.
{Minor edits here at 10:00 PM] Not sure what you're looking for in the second part of your question, but here's a stab at it: The rest of the train would have decelerated at roughly the same rate. That would have induced some pretty huge compression/ buff/ "push" forces in the couplers and drawbars, depending on whether and how hard the brakes were applied by then. Assuming the brakes were in full emergency, the deceleration G's from the brakes alone are about equal to the coefficient of friction on dry rail, or about 0.25 to 0.35 G's. The remainder of that 0.55+/- G deceleration rate - from 0.20 to 0.30 G's - was absorbed by the cars and lading/ containers crushing and displacing, the same as in the 'crush' or 'crumple zone' in the front of your car during a head-on collision. 28 containers off the train would be about 14 +/- double-stack 'wells' that were buckled and destroyed enough to toss their containers - at about 60 ft. each, that's about 840 ft. of train that absorbed the stopping force of the rest. Intuitively, that seems about right - the derailing container cars probably buckled to the outside of the curve and ricocheted off the manifest cars on the adjacent track, and thereby transferred some of the deceleration energy from the derailing container cars to the manifest cars as part of the slowing-down process.
A Brief Addendum to this Thread.
To capture the link to Ed's excellent pictures of this incident and bring them along with this Thread:http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2012/01/CSX%20derailment%20site.aspx
As an aside to this story: About 1620 (Tuesday 01/10/12) this afternoon (CDST) a westbound BNSF Stacker (at about track speed) went west with three units, and the shortest stack train I've seen in a couple of years of watching out here on the Transcon. The consist seemed to contain similar containers shown in Ed's photos ( Hamburg/Sud) and others.
Well, I can't look at the pictures, but I fully agree that Ed did a more than first rate job getting the facts and reporting them.
Thanks Ed.
It has been reported (with videos) that several trains had detoured via Detriot and Grand Rapids. Did any trains detour via Crestline and the former PRR?
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D.Carleton It has been reported (with videos) that several trains had detoured via Detriot and Grand Rapids. Did any trains detour via Crestline and the former PRR?
Probably not since the former PRR main is now basically single-track and probably would lack capacity for detour traffic. It's also operated by another railroad while the detour mentioned above is still a CSX routing.
CSSHEGEWISCH D.Carleton: It has been reported (with videos) that several trains had detoured via Detriot and Grand Rapids. Did any trains detour via Crestline and the former PRR? Probably not since the former PRR main is now basically single-track and probably would lack capacity for detour traffic. It's also operated by another railroad while the detour mentioned above is still a CSX routing.
D.Carleton: It has been reported (with videos) that several trains had detoured via Detriot and Grand Rapids. Did any trains detour via Crestline and the former PRR?
JunctionfanI was wondering if they can move the cross over perhaps somewhere between Van Ness Hwy and N Calumet Ave,
Sure they could, but why? The location of the crossovers had no bearing on this accident. The section, from Meridian road to Calumet is the steepest part of Suman hill. Not a good location for a crossover. If the dispatcher needs to stop an eastbound, it would be on the hill, and if it pulled down to the signals would have at least two crossings blocked. While westbounds would not have to worry about stalling, they too would have at least one crossing blocked if stopped at the signal.
An "expensive model collector"
I havent seen CSX run any trains on the CFE line in years. Perhaps they have a few over the years, but doubt it. There are grain trains which load at Hamlet, those normally have CSX power, not sure if CSX runs the trains, or CFE does with the power.
n012944 stated the facts regarding the Suman crossover and HBD. It is in a fairly isolated area of Porter County. Now, that being said, there have been several derailments at Suman the past few years. Not sure if the swampy location has anything to do with it or not. Lots of traffic moving thru that area, with quite a few using the crossovers.
I cross CSX at Meridian several times a week and that is a busy road. Any stoppage of trains there to hold for crossing over or due to hot boxes would be a very inefficient event for motorists. As it is, there is a holding area for WBs at Suman that doesnt block a road crossing. EB trains might block Mander Road depending on length, but few EBs are held due to the grade.
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