The following photo is an aerial view of the ATSF coach yard and engine servicing facility at 18th Street just south of Dearborn Station. The photo was taken in 1929.
You can see the turntable and roundhouse but nowhere do I see a coaling tower although ATSF was running steam in 1929 for sure. Apparently, the Chicago-area coaling tower was somewhere else in the Chicago area. Does anyone have any info and/or photos to share?
Thanks
Rich
Alton Junction
I know nothing at all about this topic, but I wonder if the coaling tower would be better placed where it would be of use to engines on the move...that is, nearer the A/D tracks and not right at the 'house and table.
-Crandell
Crandell, I had similar thoughts, but Dearborn station, out of the picture but just above and a little to the right, is just a 'stones throw' from this engine facility separated by maybe half mile or so of concentrated/congested trackage. And I can't really believe there would be a coaling tower around Dearborn station. (Who needs sooty customers, snooty is bad enough!)
Wonder if perhaps a conveyer type loader may be lurking about?
Art
Having been raised in the steam era (Yep,I'm giving away my age) I look for coaling towers. There are precious few in Michigan and most are off the mainline. There is, however, still one standing in Lansing, MI that straddles double or triple main track (I don't remember which) and has a side track for coal cars to unload their cargo into the tower. It can be viewed on Bing.
There are several around Michigan, but the ones I remember most were off the main. Pontiac and Durand come to mind.
Norm
artschlosser Crandell, I had similar thoughts, but Dearborn station, out of the picture but just above and a little to the right, is just a 'stones throw' from this engine facility separated by maybe half mile or so of concentrated/congested trackage. And I can't really believe there would be a coaling tower around Dearborn station. (Who needs sooty customers, snooty is bad enough!) Wonder if perhaps a conveyer type loader may be lurking about? Art
I have seen tons of pictures of Dearborn Station and surrounding areas from all different time periods, but no coaling towers. If not south of downtown Chicago, it must have been at Joliet or points farther southwest. But, I gotta believe with the number of steamers coming into the ATSF yard at 18th Street after discharging passengers at Dearborn Satation, there had to be a coaling tower somewhere in the immediate vicinity.
I bet there was a coaling tower at or near Corwith Yard.
http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Corwith/Chicago600.jpg]
http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Corwith/Index.htm
1943 color photographs by Jack Delano. "Santa Fe R.R. freight train about to leave for the West Coast from Corwith yard, Chicago, Ill."
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34600/1a34699v.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a34000/1a34700/1a34702v.jpg
Mike
wanswheel I bet there was a coaling tower at or near Corwith Yard. Mike
Mike,
Corwith Yard is a real possibility, I suppose.
I cannot help wondering, however, why steam engines would travel so far from the engine servicing facility at 18th Street and Wentworth to 43rd Street and Lawndale, a nearly 8 mile trip one way or more than 17 miles round trip to coal up, then return to the 18th street round house or Dearborn Station at 8th and Dearborn.
But, what do I know?
richhotrainThe following photo is an aerial view of the ATSF coach yard and engine servicing facility at 18th Street just south of Dearborn Station. The photo was taken in 1929. You can see the turntable and roundhouse but nowhere do I see a coaling tower although ATSF was running steam in 1929 for sure. Apparently, the Chicago-area coaling tower was somewhere else in the Chicago area. Does anyone have any info and/or photos to share? Thanks Rich
Above the roundhouse there are two storage type buildings, there appears to be a tower structure right above the furthest one and it has an attached elevating structure. Could that be the coaling tower?
We will likely get an answer from someone here, but in the meantime I'll suggest that there may have been a coaling tower along the mainline near (but not within) Corwith Yard. Locomotives could 'coal up' on their way to Dearborn Station or on their way west toward Joliet. Perhaps Joliet may have been the coaling stop, both eastward and westward.
They would have to make similar coaling stops along the way to wherever their westward destination might be.and this would just be another coaling stop.
During 1951, I worked 2nd shift at Corwith tower at the north end of the yards . ATSF freight trains had to cross the GM&O tracks to get in or out of Corwith. Passenger trains were diesel powered at that time, but I can't imagine that one powered by steam would try to use a coaling facility at Corwith. Unfortunately, I can't even remember what kind of power was in use for freights at that time! Freight engines must have been serviced at Corwith, I would think.
At Glenn yard, the ATSF tracks were on the other side of the river, not along side the GM&O.
Having a coal tower at Joliet would just not be logical. It is too far from Dearborn to use for servicing locos, and too close to Dearborn to re-fuel a revenue train.
Art, I was just speculating about Joliet. The thought was eastbounds could coal (and water if necessary) and then go into Dearborn. Then all other servicing could be done at 18th street yard. When westbound they could, if necessary, again stop at Joliet for coal. This would be about 80 miles between fuel stops when the switching mileage around Dearborn was added.
I expect someone will give us the correct answer soon.
I'm guessing behind the roundhouse is the water tank. ATSF may have used a standpipe to water the ponies? Any idea if they used city water or something out of the river? for the kind of service they may have had a 200K tank to serve 10-20K tenders.
There may be another picture to show the ash pit & other facilities.
I own a book titled "Railroading in Downtown Chicago 1958-1969" by Robert P. Olmsted. On the back cover is a 1964 photo of a Wabash E8A, running west out of Dearborn Station on the C&WI tracks, passing the ATSF turntable and round house just before 18th Street. Behind the round house is a large water tank, presumably used at one time to provide service to steam engines. Just before the turntable, there are two sanding towers, one larger and one smaller. Just before the sanding towers is a large slender structure that resembles a small coaling tower. In the photo, the base of this structure is blocked by a small shed.
The photo is black and white. The structure that resembles a small coaling tower is "white", giving the appearance of concrete. The concrete structure is as tall as the shorter sand tower. Aside the concrete structure, and apparently connected to it, is a dark slender cylindrical structure that is higher than the taller sand tower. This dark slender cylindrical structure may have a chute (coal?) protruding from it and it also appears to have a small platform with railings on it, and that platform is slightly higher on the cylindrical structure than the top of the concrete portion of the structure.
I want to say that this structure is a coaling tower but I am not at all certain. I wish I had some way to scan the photo but I don't and besides it would probably violate copyright law. Since the photo is from 1964, it is hard to imagine that it is a coaling tower, more than 10 years after the demise of steam on the ATSF. Nevertheless, if not a coaling tower, what is it?
I have had this book for about 5 years but never paid real close attention to the details in the photo. I hope someone else also has this book and can look at the photo on the back cover.
I also wish there was greater detail in the photo. I remember seeing but one coaling tower, and that was at Durango,CO. The GM&O had a water spout in my home town but no coaling.
The site below has pictures of the few remaining towers on the ATSF. They sure were not consistent.
http://atsf.railfan.net/chutes
And the tower at Ridgely IL sure doesn't look like the Durango one!
http://home.earthlink.net/~railroad_towers_railroadmania/coal_towers_steam_locomotives/ChicagoAndAltonRailroadSpringfieldIll.html
artschlosser I also wish there was greater detail in the photo. Art
I also wish there was greater detail in the photo.
Art,
Do you have the book, or are you able to view the actual photo that I am referring to ?
I was thinking the same thing. Another possibility is that the passenger engines used fuel oil and not coal. I believe you got more miles out of a tender of fuel oil than you did a tender of coal.
artschlosser clarkfork may be on to something. I don't know when the ATSF converted to oil in Illinois, but the engine below was converted to oil in 1936 soon after it was built. I doubt that 4-8-4s were used in Illinois, and the pictures of lighter weight engines, like a 4-6-2, seem to have a coal tender but with no coal visible. http://atsf.railfan.net/atsfpres/atsf3751.html There was definitely coal in the forties at Corwith. The slide show to the right of the picure shows of a coaling tower. http://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/2179198626/ And also, Rich, I don't have anything on the Santa Fe that has that picture you have in the first posting. Art
I have read that the Santa Fe could not bring larger steam engines into the 18th Street yard for servicing because of the tight curves. That got me to wondering whether they used oil rather than coal on their smaller steam engines and when steam stopped coming into Dearborn Station altogether on the ATSF.
I am trying to provide pictures of that small tower that I referred to. I have some better angles and views of the structure if I can upload them.
Here is the photo of the structure that I referred to earlier on the left side of the photo behind the sand towers:
What is it?
I would hazard a guess that the two to the right are for sand. As for the larger one to the left, I'm clueless. Maybe oil? Doesn't look large enough, but I have nothing in my background to fall back on.
It is really, really hard to tell --- but -- this could be a coal dock. The white/tan surface looks like weathered concrete and a lot of coal towers were made of concrete. I can't think of any concrete water or fuel oil tanks in this continent, though I think I have seen pictures of concrete water tanks in Europe.
The farther out two "B" units look like they could have yellow band at the bottom, a color scheme which I think would date the photo post Amtrak 1971. If it is 1971 or later and the concrete thingy is a coal dock, it would have been at least 30 years old at the time and thus would look weathered.
The vertical black thing in front of the white/tan thing could be a coal conveyor/elevator "leg." There are railings on top of the white/tan (coal dock) as well as close to the top of the black vertical thing. I would think that conveyors/elevators of that era would have needed a lot of maintenance, hence the permanent railings.
Above and to the left of the farthest B unit is a diagonal pipe that could be part of a sand tower. Above the top end this pipe there seems to be a small vertical black tank, maybe for sand?. In steam days sand towers were situated close to coal docks. In some cases sanding towers were attached to coal docks. In fact, I think a few coal docks survived into the diesel age because they had sand towers attached or integral to them and were simply used as sand towers for diesels.
Over on the left there is a building with what could be sliding doors mounted on an overhead track. Could that have been where they dumped coal from hopper cars, then to be lifted by the conveyor/elevator leg to the top of the coal dock? The weathered concrete on this structure seems to match the concrete of the possible coal dock. I think overhead track horizantal sliding (or folding) doors is technology from the 20s or so.
To the right of the coal conveyor/elevator leg is something that could be a pully from which was descended a cable/rope and a counterweight. That sort of thing was used on the chutes of coal docks.
Too bad I don't have more of a life that I spend all this time on this.
clarkfork It is really, really hard to tell --- but -- this could be a coal dock. The white/tan surface looks like weathered concrete and a lot of coal towers were made of concrete. I can't think of any concrete water or fuel oil tanks in this continent, though I think I have seen pictures of concrete water tanks in Europe. The farther out two "B" units look like they could have yellow band at the bottom, a color scheme which I think would date the photo post Amtrak 1971. If it is 1971 or later and the concrete thingy is a coal dock, it would have been at least 30 years old at the time and thus would look weathered. The vertical black thing in front of the white/tan thing could be a coal conveyor/elevator "leg." There are railings on top of the white/tan (coal dock) as well as close to the top of the black vertical thing. I would think that conveyors/elevators of that era would have needed a lot of maintenance, hence the permanent railings. Above and to the left of the farthest B unit is a diagonal pipe that could be part of a sand tower. Above the top end this pipe there seems to be a small vertical black tank, maybe for sand?. In steam days sand towers were situated close to coal docks. In some cases sanding towers were attached to coal docks. In fact, I think a few coal docks survived into the diesel age because they had sand towers attached or integral to them and were simply used as sand towers for diesels. Over on the left there is a building with what could be sliding doors mounted on an overhead track. Could that have been where they dumped coal from hopper cars, then to be lifted by the conveyor/elevator leg to the top of the coal dock? The weathered concrete on this structure seems to match the concrete of the possible coal dock. I think overhead track horizantal sliding (or folding) doors is technology from the 20s or so. To the right of the coal conveyor/elevator leg is something that could be a pully from which was descended a cable/rope and a counterweight. That sort of thing was used on the chutes of coal docks. Too bad I don't have more of a life that I spend all this time on this.
Very interesting!
The photo is from 1969, and I have other photos from 1966 and 1964 showing the same structure.
I had never heard the term "coal dock" before. I hopr someone else can shed more light on this.
Admittedly, this is a WAG. Didn't Santa Fe use slender vertical-coneyor coal loaders with low-level bunkers (below ground level)? That left-hand structure might fill that description.
Chuck
richhotrainI had never heard the term "coal dock" before. I hopr someone else can shed more light on this.
Don't know about other areas, but in the Eastern U.S. coaling facilities were often called "coal docks" or "coal wharfs" (coal wharves?)
According to the Santa Fe's Annual Report of 1942 the road possessed 1,500 steam locomotive of which approximately 250 were coal burners. Coal fired engines were concentrated in two areas, one being the mainline from Chicago to Kansas City and the other the line over Raton Pass. Apparently the practice in Illinois and Missouri was to place the coaling facilities about 100 miles apart with towers at Chillicothe, Ft. Madison and Marceline being documented by Jack Delano in 1943. This implies that there were also coaling facilities in the Chicago area and at Kansas City as well and massive ones at that. Coal fired engines used on freight service included the 3200 and 4000 class 2-8-2s and the 3400 class Pacifics, among others. There were also plenty of oil burners working this territory too. The proximity of nearby coal mines in both Illinois and New Mexico made these dispositions possible.l
In a small or tight area for engine facilities Santa Fe used a relatively small vertical conveyor system built by Fairbanks-Morris and it would look like a concrete & steel tower positioned close to the inbound/outbound roundhouse lead. There would be a drop bottom gon or hopper car spotted on the other side of the conveyor to drop the coal into the small pit under the conveyor.
The post above is not correct, "...with towers at Chillicothe". Chillicothe Illinois had one of these F-M coal conveyors in the later years of steam on the roundhouse lead. I have yet to see any evidence of a coal chute on the mainline at Chillicothe where I lived for 22 years (1969-1992). So if any one has a photo to prove me wrong I'd love to see it.
However I do not know if there was one of these F-M conveyors at 18th St Chicago in the 1920 era. I have a photo of the coal tower at 18th Street I took in 1972 during the demolition of the 18th Street Coach Yard but I am unable to figure out how to up-load the digital image. Plus the aerial photo only shows about a half of the coach yards. There was a lot more to the yards on that extended to the south west at the bottom of the photo. So if there were other aerial photos taken in that same 1920 era we need to check them.
I worked for the Santa Fe Railway for 42 years as a trainman and conductor starting in 1965 on the Illinois Division. I carried a camera with me at all times. So my knowledge of the steam era came from talking to the old heads that enjoyed working on steam locos. A lot of them would cuss a blue streak if you asked them about steam. So it was wise to break into the topic of steam power. I asked them many questions on those long night runs but unfortunately I never thought to ask what the procedure was to coal up their locos at 18th Street coach yard.
Corwith would not have been efficient to run 5 miles west and try to get in through the maze of tracks. I suspect the answer would be to find an aerial photo of the other half taken in the same era.
If you want to find out more or see my photo collection please attend our SFRH&M Mini-meet Fort Madison, IA, 707 Ave H, Saturday, April 14th, 2012.
Steve Rippeteau railscenes@q.com
I forgot to mention this was one of my teenage hang outs I had a small Honda motor cycle to get around or rode the CTA EL & bus routes to 18th Street and the big crossing at the South Branch Bridge. I walked the entire length from Dearborn to 18th Street coach yard in the early 1960's before I hired out. I do not recall any place else there could have ben a coal chute. But who knows there might have been one, but remember that track from 18th St to Dearborn served all the other railroads coming into Dearborn Station.
Steve Rippeteau
Railscenes In a small or tight area for engine facilities Santa Fe used a relatively small vertical conveyor system built by Fairbanks-Morris and it would look like a concrete & steel tower positioned close to the inbound/outbound roundhouse lead. There would be a drop bottom gon or hopper car spotted on the other side of the conveyor to drop the coal into the small pit under the conveyor.
Steve,
Here is a photo of the structure in question. Is this the small vertical conveyor system you are referring to?
Railscenes However I do not know if there was one of these F-M conveyors at 18th St Chicago in the 1920 era. I have a photo of the coal tower at 18th Street I took in 1972 during the demolition of the 18th Street Coach Yard but I am unable to figure out how to up-load the digital image. Plus the aerial photo only shows about a half of the coach yards. There was a lot more to the yards on that extended to the south west at the bottom of the photo. So if there were other aerial photos taken in that same 1920 era we need to check them.
Could you scan the photo and email it to me so that I can post it?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.