Ulrich -
OK, thanks for the reply.
As with most strikes, this may well be an instance of the contest of 'who blinks first' - or perhaps more accurately, the game of 'chicken' as played with cars . . . only here, it's now with locomotives and railroads.
- Paul North.
Back in N&W days, I have a feeling (suspicion?) that most managers were competent railroaders. Today managers are either hired off the street or lousy new railroaders that were stuck into management since the chances of blowing up a small town as a trainmaster are slim to nil.
There are exceptions, and I have met a few really good managers hired off the street. Emphasis on few.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Back in N&W days, I have a feeling (suspicion?) that most managers were competent railroaders. [snip]
So it would appear. From a blog entry titled ''Remembering the Norfolk Western Strike of 1978'' at -
http://lowerscioto.blogspot.com/2008/05/remembering-norfolk-western-strike-of.html
''Fishwick's computerization efforts had also included the creation of a non-contract supervisory employee database, which could be used during a work stoppage to make job assignments across the whole N&W operation.''
And from the comments below it [emphasis added - PDN] -
john said...
Andrew, supposedly the N&W commissioned a book detailing how they operated the railroad during the strike.Do you know if it exists? The basis of the book was the fact that the N&W operated approximately 90% of the trains with 15% of the normal workforce.I was a college student at the time, and had interviewed a Santa Fe official while doing an economics term paper. I asked him to comment on the strike.He stated that those percentages were not sustainable over the long run, but did point out that the railroads needed to stand up to unions because the work rules were so outdated - in the steam days it took 5 persons to run a train. In the Diesel era with new technology, it only took 2.Likewise, the multitude of railcar paperwork was even more problematic - computers could do the work of entire departments, and faster.Bottom line, he mentioned the book, but I never have been able to find it.
The book you refer to is "The Norfolk and Western strike of 1978" by Robert E. Bedingfield and edited by Harold S. Taylor (Norfolk and Western Railway Co., 1979). I used it when I originally wrote this article.You comments about the computerization of the work of clerks is on the mark, as it was central to the origins of the strike, while the switch to diesel impacted the other railroaders who respected the BRAC pickets.Thanks for reading and leaving a comment.-ALF
EDIT / P.S. - This strike lasted 82 days, from July 10, 1978 to Sept. 29, 1978, per the National Mediation Board's web page at - http://www.nmb.gov/publicinfo/railroad-strikes.html Aside from correcting my earlier statements about the year and duration of the strike, it appears that the N&W's CEO at the time was John P. Fishwick, not Robert Claytor, who was probably an operating vice president of some type. - PDN.
zugmann Back in N&W days, I have a feeling (suspicion?) that most managers were competent railroaders. Today managers are either hired off the street or lousy new railroaders that were stuck into management since the chances of blowing up a small town as a trainmaster are slim to nil. There are exceptions, and I have met a few really good managers hired off the street. Emphasis on few.
I look at the numbers...and the numbers strongly suggest the rails are well managed. You may not like the managers...but being likeable and being competent are two different things. I run a much smaller and simpler business, and I find it next to impossible to please everyone most of the time. Most decisions are tradeoffs and often result in people not being happy. That's not to say there aren't some lousy managers around..we all know there are..but by and large most managers are capable, as are the rank and file...
Ulrich zugmann Back in N&W days, I have a feeling (suspicion?) that most managers were competent railroaders. Today managers are either hired off the street or lousy new railroaders that were stuck into management since the chances of blowing up a small town as a trainmaster are slim to nil. There are exceptions, and I have met a few really good managers hired off the street. Emphasis on few. I look at the numbers...and the numbers strongly suggest the rails are well managed. You may not like the managers...but being likeable and being competent are two different things. I run a much smaller and simpler business, and I find it next to impossible to please everyone most of the time. Most decisions are tradeoffs and often result in people not being happy. That's not to say there aren't some lousy managers around..we all know there are..but by and large most managers are capable, as are the rank and file...
No offense Ulrich, but you do not work for the railroad. We do. There's an old saying that the "railroad makes money despite itself". If we could get competent management, then this RR would be raking in 10x what they do now. You don't see yard and local crews so poorly managed that customers don't get service when they request it. We do. You don't see when it takes 3 crews to take a train 200 miles. We do. You don't see the countless hours it takes to call a dispatcher because they have been given yet another 100 miles of territory to cover. We do. You don't see how it takes 6 hours to get a road train out of a terminal due to the stupid rules we follow. We do. You don't see the empty sidings or industries moved because they get sick of not getting their cars in or out. You don't see the RR scrambling when they don't have enough extra employees to cover the vacancies, so trains get anulled, customers get screwed, or other regular crews have to handle that work (usually getting a penalty or difference in pay at least)
There are a few good managers (usually older ones). The rest are happy to go pulling tapes, hiding in weeds, or hiding in their offices to try to get some sleep. The retention rates for new managers suck. Even in this economy I know of managers that quit within the past few months. They get used, abused, passed over, p|ssed on, yelled at and are expected to work 24/7 with no sleep and be personally responsible for every moronic thing the RRers under them do. The only way they can keep going is to keep bringing in new people, promising them the world and giving them heartburn. And they get to pay them less, to boot!
The only thing that saves a lot of business is that they have no alternative. They are captive to the RR that serves them for at least the pulls and setouts. It may be expesnsive, but it must still be somewhat competitive to trucking. Also, the railroad has been around long enough that most RRers know what to do, without some liberal-arts graduate standing over them pretending that he is in charge. The railroads run themselves, thanks in no small part to sheer repition and experience. Now in 5 years when all these old heads retire? We're all screwed.
any company can play the number games to look good.
More on the CN strike:http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/11/30/ottawa-readies-back-to-work-order-in-cn-strike.html
UlrichI look at the numbers...and the numbers strongly suggest the rails are well managed. You may not like the managers...but being likeable and being competent are two different things. I run a much smaller and simpler business, and I find it next to impossible to please everyone most of the time. Most decisions are tradeoffs and often result in people not being happy. That's not to say there aren't some lousy managers around..we all know there are..but by and large most managers are capable, as are the rank and file...
There are lies, *** lies, and statistics. Numbers are misleading. Mismanagement is rampant. I think you have to work for a company to see that bad decisions are commonplace. When you see money being wasted left and right and know that there is absolutely nothing you can do about it it's frustrating beyond belief. One of the big problems is that so many of the people calling the shots do NOT know what is going on. We have kids who just graduated from colllege who try to tell guys with 30 years of experience how to do things. We recently had a derailment and we had a kid MTM who had absolutely no idea what he was doing. I don't blame him that he was put into a position that was wasn't experienced. However, it caused a lot of problems because he wasn't qualified to to his job. We have people who schedule who major engineering projects who have absolutely no concept of weather and climate factors. Most folks know that it's hotter than Hell in Arizona in July but they'll send us there anyway. Same goes for projects in the winter. Common sense should dictate that it's going to snow in the mountains in December so work should be scheduled for the summer. Unfortunately common sense is a rare commidty on the railroad. There are too many decision makers who are insulated from reality because they sit in office buildings far from where the real work is done. AND they've never done the work that they are "overseeing". You can have a gang moved from A to B and then right back A a month later even though we all know the work at A wasn't done and was going to need to be completed. In a case like that you have two gang moves just to get the work at A completed. It's ridiculous.
It's a good thing I don't drink or I'd get tanked every night out on the road. Sometimes you just want to pull your hair out with some of the stuff that goes on.
Some questions:
1.) The Engineers union, and the Conductors union are the same? If they are seperate, do they contractually have to work, if their particular contract is current?
2.) At points of interchange, does the receiving railroad for the CN's traffic have to accept the interchange, if the receiving railroads employees are not on strike?
2a.) Or do they have to use non-union (management) employees to handle the interchange?
2b.) Or can the receiving railroad's employees, at some point refuse to work the incoming shipments from the struck railroad?
I understand that the railroad that is on strike must/may (?) use management personnel to replace the personnel on strike to move the trains. If the union representing the clerks (Dispatchers, Clerks and other office worker types) is not on strike, can they honor the "Picket line of the on-strike union" of the on-strike line. Not exactly sure how all this interacts when one union on a competing railroad goes out on strike, and other railroads are operating 'normally'.
Thanks!
PigFarmer1Mismanagement is rampant
I think at one time one manager I worked with said that what was described as mismanagement was another form of 'alienation'. It used to be that you started at an entry level job and worked up from there TO the management position. Now it is get the paper--then get plopped into place. As someone who was recently placed into a QA position I see stuff that makes me wanna go choke the next nincom-------------well, you get the picture---so I can see your point here.
The problem here is that the good manager types don't last in this kind of environment either---
[edited by selector]
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder The problem here is that the good manager types don't last in this kind of environment either---
As one who spent 36 years on the management side (in another industry), I can tell you that the successful manager is the manager who listens to his employees. If one has not had the opportunity of actually doin' the work himself, then you must rely on and listen to your employees if you're going to be successful..
It's a fact of life today that the ticket of admission to corporate management for the last 40 years has been the four-year degree. One can still "come up through the ranks" but must usually obtain a degree prior to actually being promoted.
Mike
MJChittickIt's a fact of life today that the ticket of admission to corporate management for the last 40 years has been the four-year degree. One can still "come up through the ranks" but must usually obtain a degree prior to actually being promoted.
I'm assuming that one can still, hopefully, come up the ladder with a modicum of what used to be called experience. As long as the degree is part of the picture....most universities do in fact offer advanced standing for those who do have related experience. So we don't see these universities throwing experience out either
The problem though is that having the degree does not always guarantee that the recipient of said degree is capable of listening to the employee. Apparently, in this case this happened because I'm still going through university and I got into a QA management position---
I think that we did lose a little bit in ditching experience in favour of the degree---I rather we try for both?
blownout cylinder The problem though is that having the degree does not always guarantee that the recipient of said degree is capable of listening to the employee. I think that we did lose a little bit in ditching experience in favour of the degree---I rather we try for both?
The problem though is that having the degree does not always guarantee that the recipient of said degree is capable of listening to the employee.
I couldn't agree with you more. The inept but degreed manager will usually be found out and will eventually leave the company. Unfortunately, this usually only happens after many mistakes and bad decisions, leaving a whole bunch of unhappy subordinate employees in the wake!
When I was interviewing prospective first line supervisors, I was much more comfortable with a current hourly employee who had obtained his/her degree while working a full-time job. I had a much better idea what I was getting compared to an outside hire where I had to rely only on the interview and references.
MJChittick I couldn't agree with you more. The inept but degreed manager will usually be found out and will eventually leave the company. Unfortunately, this usually only happens after many mistakes and bad decisions, leaving a whole bunch of unhappy subordinate employees in the wake! [snip]
Some years ago a railroad union official commented on this phenomenon of frequent turnover in the supervisory ranks, saying in effect that it worked really well for him and his fellow members. Having been in the same place for their entire careers of many years, they were thoroughly familiar with the contract agreements, the local work rules supplements and 'arbitraries', and the arbitrated decisions/ interpretations, etc., as well as the local operating conditions and idiosyncracies of each industry and requirements for each train that they had to work with. So whenever a dispute or oddball situation came up, they usually won either the ruling or money, or both.
As Robert Townsend said in his book Up he Organization!, 'If they [management] only knew what they were doing to themselves . . . ".
Tentative Deal Reached:http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/12/02/cn-bill-engineers.html
Some excerpts - draw your own conclusions:
- No details were released.
- The development means Ottawa will abandon moves to force the strikers back to work at the country's biggest railway. Labour Minister Rona Ambrose introduced a back-to-work bill Monday after weekend talks failed to produce a deal between the company and the union. Ambrose credited the bill —which would have referred all outstanding issues to arbitration— for the deal. "Back-to-work legislation applied very real pressure on the parties," she said.
- On Tuesday, CN conditionally offered to withdraw a contentious work rule change in a "good faith effort" to end the strike. It had wanted to increase the travel distance maximum by 800 kilometres to 6,900 kilometres a month. . . . [snip] . . . The railway said it was willing to roll back the monthly mileage cap to its previous level if the union withdrew its own unspecified work-rule demands.
- PDN.
It is too bad that CN caved in to the union. They should have waited for the "returrn to work order" or hired replacement workers.
samfp1943Some questions: 1.) The Engineers union, and the Conductors union are the same? If they are seperate, do they contractually have to work, if their particular contract is current? 2.) At points of interchange, does the receiving railroad for the CN's traffic have to accept the interchange, if the receiving railroads employees are not on strike? 2a.) Or do they have to use non-union (management) employees to handle the interchange? 2b.) Or can the receiving railroad's employees, at some point refuse to work the incoming shipments from the struck railroad? Thanks!
Good questions.
1) The engineers, conductors, brakemen, switchmen, yardmasters and RTC's(dispatchers) are all TCRC. Yet we are forced to cross each other's picket lines or face $1000/day fines or even jail time.
2) It depends on the connecting railway's collective agreements. BNSF was using managers to take trains to CN at Thornton yard because their employees won't cross the picket lines.
igoldberg or hired replacement workers.
or hired replacement workers.
Why? It would make the government side with the union in a big hurry.
igoldbergIt is too bad that CN caved in to the union. They should have waited for the "returrn to work order" or hired replacement workers.
Hire scabs?!?! because they know how to run trains!! that would only put the public's safety at risk and its a good thing CN "caved" maybe they are starting to realize who makes them their money so that their company officials can get their precious bonuses.
From the CP employee's website...
CN has conditionally offered to withdraw a contentious work rule change in a “good faith effort” to end a strike by its locomotive engineers. The railway said it is willing to roll back the monthly mileage cap to its previous level if the union withdraws its own unspecified work-rule demands. “If they'll drop their work rule changes, we'll drop ours,” spokesman Mark Hallman said in an interview. Agreement would allow just the issue of wages and benefits to be sent to binding arbitration. The railway had previously insisted that all matters in dispute be sent to arbitration. Officials with the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, which represents the roughly 1,700 workers, couldn't be immediately reached for comment. CN says the proposal was part of a “good faith effort to reach a settlement.” Hallman added, “We thought that this was the important good-faith gesture to break the logjam." The union previously offered to submit the wage portion of the dispute to final arbitration following resolution of other outstanding issues. The railway's move comes a day after Ottawa introduced back-to-work legislation to end a second CN strike in as many years.
Odd the part about rolling back the mileage cap to its previous level. You can't take back something that you never had in the first place.
At CP what we have done is locally raise the milelage cap when business warrants it. Then when business slows down, the cap goes down. This way, everybody benefits.
enr2099 samfp1943 Some questions: 1.) The Engineers union, and the Conductors union are the same? If they are seperate, do they contractually have to work, if their particular contract is current? 2.) At points of interchange, does the receiving railroad for the CN's traffic have to accept the interchange, if the receiving railroads employees are not on strike? 2a.) Or do they have to use non-union (management) employees to handle the interchange? 2b.) Or can the receiving railroad's employees, at some point refuse to work the incoming shipments from the struck railroad? Thanks! Good questions. 1) The engineers, conductors, brakemen, switchmen, yardmasters and RTC's(dispatchers) are all TCRC. Yet we are forced to cross each other's picket lines or face $1000/day fines or even jail time. 2) It depends on the connecting railway's collective agreements. BNSF was using managers to take trains to CN at Thornton yard because their employees won't cross the picket lines.
samfp1943 Some questions: 1.) The Engineers union, and the Conductors union are the same? If they are seperate, do they contractually have to work, if their particular contract is current? 2.) At points of interchange, does the receiving railroad for the CN's traffic have to accept the interchange, if the receiving railroads employees are not on strike? 2a.) Or do they have to use non-union (management) employees to handle the interchange? 2b.) Or can the receiving railroad's employees, at some point refuse to work the incoming shipments from the struck railroad? Thanks!
Tyler W.
Thank You! Those of us who do not work in the railindustry have only a sketchy, outsiders view of the process of function/operations between the various railroads. As one of the posters mentioned, they have worked in these situations involving corporate interaction between the different companies, and their employees. The allusion was made to arbitrary actions, and results of various arbitrations. I had friends and acquaintances who worked for the IC in Memphis before and while it was the ICG, and then back to the IC, now CN. It was almost an adversarial relationship, it seemed almost impossible to get some things done, let alone ask for something to be done out of the ordinary.
I found it really facinating to see how the supervisory managers, and workers interacted, or diden't! How employees received punishment for rules infractions, and then how the Union reps got them back on the jobs. How some of the men would do things and then get sanctioned, lay off months, go to the Labor Board, get their hearings, their jobs back and compensation for wages not paid while "Fired".
How the circumstances of what appeared to be really big screw-up were, just swept aside, based on "who did what for/to/with whom." ( one particular inciddent put three SD's in the turntable pit one night, one on its side, one sitting on top of the one on its side in the pit and the thrid unit about three feet up in the second units long hood, not to mention the fuel from three road ready units.) The man responsible got no itme off, and the units were fixed there-they were in the shop for a long time-, after being hooked out of the pit.
I guess it depends upon the contract, and how tight personal interactions are among the interested parties as to whay is allowed and then, now allowed to go unchallenged.
Again, Thanks, Tyler W.
igoldberg It is too bad that CN caved in to the union. They should have waited for the "returrn to work order" or hired replacement workers.
How nice, a management scum.
RRKen How nice, a management scum.
That's what happens when you drink the KoolAid.
You cannot possibly be serious.........
enr2099 RRKen How nice, a management scum. That's what happens when you drink the KoolAid.
And what ever drugs E-Dot is taking.
Since when in the hell is abiding by the contracts considered CAVING, goldberg?
zugmann igoldberg It is too bad that CN caved in to the union. They should have waited for the "returrn to work order" or hired replacement workers. Since when in the hell is abiding by the contracts considered CAVING, goldberg?
D'oh!
Enough!
[locked]
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.