The MMA has one heck of a grade from Sherbrooke, QC east to Lennoxville. Over the weekend I walked along the right of way (not trespassing...I walked through the scary looking neighbourhoods adjacent to the tracks). Anyone know the grade..i.e. 3%..4%?...It beats anything I've seen out west.
I can't find any references to it, but I would be surprised to learn that is was much over 3%. Such a grade requires a lot of HP.
-Crandell
......Don't forget what Saluda grade Is {was} on a main line route. Much steeper than the MM&A listing in the above post.
Quentin
Saluda wasn't much steeper I don't think...I've seen Saluda...and the MMA grade mentioned above looks steeper to me...or at least as steep. It is a main route too...
.....Saluda is {was}, a bit over 5% grade.
You've hit upon a little understood fact. There are great grades in the Rockies, some for very long stretches, too. But here in the east, especially in places like New England and eastern Canada, there are many short but steep grades, often less than a mile, maybe as long as 100 feet. And these grades often are not spread out but rather strung together only yards or short miles apart. This made for difficult (slow) railroading often attributed to the wilds of the west but just as real here in the east.
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I believe Saluda was about a 3 mi. climb. At one time it also included 2 runaway tracks. I too have been there, several times....and couldn't believe how steep it was looking down that grade.....I stopped there 3 or 4 times coming back from a Winter in Florida and waited up to 4 hrs. to see train action there, but never succeeded. Than right after that time period, the line was embargoed and that was the end of seeing any action on the "Hill".
I found something that would suggest a steep grade on the MMA...a photo in Derek Booth's excellent book about the Quebec Central. Although the book doesn't specify the grade...the photo shows FOUR large Canadian Pacific steam locomotives working a freight upgrade...booth goes on to state that helpers were usually required on that grade. From childhood I recall that freights often had 5 to 10 locomotives on the point..mostly RS-18s and RS-10s.
According to my learning per Vance (thanks, RWM!), the early USA grading of routes, as they were surveyed and developed, was the single greatest factor in N. Americans developing both their own style of railroading, particularly the types of engines. We needed serious weight and HP to get over the Appalachian and other ranges. We had to go west, across the various ranges, to find markets once the coastal markets had been...uh...mined to a certain degree. That meant a more aggressive approach to the hills, unlike the more valley and contour-oriented British style of railroading that was more N/S in orientation.
Well...agressive is what I'd certainly call that part of the MMA...(as well as the neighborhood it runs through)...
About 5 or 10 years ago there were a couple of articles about that line in another railfan and railroad magazine or one of its regional-type competitors by George Pitarys, who I believe was/ is a dispatcher or RTC for the MMA or one of its predecessors. I haven't looked at my issues of that magazine for several years, but I do not recall a mention of any really severe grades - but that may just be my faulty memory. Wouldn't the CP have been the predecessor ?
Dying? Maybe. Dead? Never Trains, February 1995 page 34 Canadian Pacific line across Maine ( CPR, FRONTISPIECE, MAINE, "PITARYS, GEORGE S.", TRN )
- Paul North.
I think I know the article you're talking about Paul...and indeed this was part of the CP. I too don't recall any recollection of severe grades...but as Henry noted above..it isn't a prolonged grade but rather short one that may have been overlooked in the popular press. Also, it may be less known due to its location in a really bad neighbourhood...I walked through there at night and would probably have been safer walking on the right of way..watched a couple arrests in progress.. had to make a couple of detours to avoid trouble (sounds of breaking glass and people running)..
A bit of a 'walk on the wild side', eh ? Who'd a thunk it ? What's up with that ? We here in the States thought we had a monopoly on that kind of thing.
I'll see if I can find that article and any of the others that I remember - no promises or commitments as to a time frame, but now you've got me a little curious, too.
- Paul.
No, sadly we too have that kind of problem..and sometimes where one wouldn't expect it. Next time I'm there I will take my camera to get some shots of the grade..(might also get some good shots for Allo Police..the French crime tabloid)..
One Percent Average from Lennoxville to Sherbrooke Westbound
What's your source?
This source says it is a 1.72 % maximum eastbound grade from Sherbrooke to Megantic, as follows:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mikado/?page=cp
These engines were used for slow and fast freight as well as for passenger service between Sherbrooke and Megantic (PQ). The Sherbrooke-Megantic section had a maximum eastbound grade of 1.72% over which the 10-car passenger trains had frequently to be double-headed by the CP's Pacifics. According to Railway Age of 3 April 1914: "The Mikados have obviated the necessity for two engines, and under the most extreme climatic conditions are doing excellent work."
The average grade westward between Lennoxville and Sherbrooke is approximately 1 percent. This informtion is found in the Bangor & Aroostook System Timetable which shows grade along with other graphically information. The track is now owned and operated by MMA which now has Timetable No. 2 in effect. The newer timetable does not contain grade. If you have an MMA contact you probably still can find a copy of the old graphical version. Of course, the grade shown in B&A System Timetable No. 1 came from CP track profiles which still can be found through proper connections. As information I don't believe the grade anywhere on the Sherbrooke Sub exceeds much beyond 2 percent for short distances, however I would have to check that data for exact total average which can also be found in the old B&A System Timetable.
Maybe so.. but it sure looks steeper on a couple of short sections east of the Sherbrooke train station. But...could be wrong...
Maybe it's because the comparatively built-up urban area provides lots of visual clues and references for the difference from a level line through the horizontal and vertical building lines, etc. ? Such references are usually not as close or convenient for other steep grades, which are usually out in the country or in the woods or mountains someplace.
Could very well be Paul... good point.
It is true...one's vantage point, especially at or near the tracks, at or near the bottom of a grade, and looking up toward a towering skyline of tall trees some 1000 yards away, plus any adjacent buildings that line the corridor (their chimneys and roof peaks will rise commensurate to the elevations), and utility/telephone poles and lines, will all contribute to an exaggerated illusory effect.
Always was pretty high at Hell's Angels crossing. This may contribute to the illusory effect.
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