Shays (and similar locos used in passenegr service??

[Kozzie]

I've tried searching for previous posts on this and [banghead] keep getting blanks, so if it has been discussed earlier, patience please...

Our recent model rail exhibition had several layouts with Shays in expected duties i.e. timber haulage.

However, I was told by someone that they also did passenger work. Must have been for short branch lines, and where speed was not an issue?? [%-)]

Could anyone please advise where the Shays (and similar locos) did passenger service? Maybe logging companies also hauled passengers in between timber haulage??

(I'm always on the lookout for unusual/different passenger seervices...heh heh [;)][;)])

Cheers

Dave

[Anonymous]

I believe there is a tourist line in Tennessee that uses a Shay to pull a passenger car or two. The trip isn't long, distance wise (what tourist run really is a long distance run nowadays?) but it does take some time to sit through.
Give me some time to flip through my "Recreational Railroading" insert from "Trains" and I'll find it. I think it's in the Chattanooga area.
Erik

[M636C]

Dave,

There was a mountain tourist railway in Taiwan called Ali Shan (shan means mountain in Mandarin Chinese) that used two feet six inch gauge Shays on regular trains until the 1960s. One of their locomotives is at Puffing Billy east of Melbourne, Victoria, but not in working order. Puffing Billy do have a working Climax, also 2'6" gauge, of course, which is used on special occasions (because it is too slow for normal operation).

Peter

[PNWRMNM]

Cass Scenic in West Virginia operates on former logging line and now also on part of ex Western Maryland branch. Rode the logging line version years ago. It was the real thing except for lack of logs. Well worth whatever trip you need to make, even from OZ.

Mac

[vsmith]

The narrow guage Uintah Railway in Utah used Shays for regular scheduled passenger runs. The line had 7 to 7.5 % grades and curves up to 60 degrees and one at 66 degrees, Shays were perfectly suited for these runs. Although later the line switched to two 0-6-2t engines that handled the extreme conditions quite well.

The 2 foot Gilpin Tramway also in its early years ran open excursion cars on line tours operated by the lines Shay's.

For the most part Shays and geared engines were not used for passenger service only because the geared engines only had a top speed of 15 to 20mph. Too slow for most lines, only the lines that had extreme grades or terrain utilized the geared locos for passenger service.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

For the most part Shays and geared engines were not used for passenger service only because the geared engines only had a top speed of 15 to 20mph.

Not true, most Shay's had a top speed close to 35-40 MPH, Most other steamers had a top speed close to 60-70 MPH. But most railroads limited thier engines to around 30 MPH, citing all sorts of odd reasons.

it wasn't till about the 1920-30's that railroads started letting their engines go faster (and the top speed started to go up), although many engineers exceeded the speed limits on occasion and were scolded for it. So in reality, at least early on, shay's were on par with any other passenger train in terms of speed restrictions and were well suited for that use in heavy graded areas, where they excelled.

Jay

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NTDN

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

For the most part Shays and geared engines were not used for passenger service only because the geared engines only had a top speed of 15 to 20mph.

Not true, most Shay's had a top speed close to 35-40 MPH, Most other steamers had a top speed close to 60-70 MPH. But most railroads limited thier engines to around 30 MPH, citing all sorts of odd reasons.

it wasn't till about the 1920-30's that railroads started letting their engines go faster (and the top speed started to go up), although many engineers exceeded the speed limits on occasion and were scolded for it. So in reality, at least early on, shay's were on par with any other passenger train in terms of speed restrictions and were well suited for that use in heavy graded areas, where they excelled.

Jay

Wouldnt the top speed of a geared engine be based on the gearing provided for the engine?

Todays survivors were industrial engines and never intended for passenger service, regular or excursion. Most geared engines I have seen were used for heavy hauling hence the drive gears were specificly low speed gears to allow for maximum pulling power, hence a low top speed, I have never heard of a higher speed geared engine that could reach 35-40mph. Of the survivors i have seen, 40mph and the pistons would be blowing apart! That doens't mean I dont believe you, it just means I haven't run across this before.

I have pic's of Shays that were used by the NYC for switching services, very unusual looking beasts, they had full cab bodies, but the geared trucks and pistons are clearly visible.

(I re-edited this to clarify that I ment low "speed" gearing not low "ratio" gearing, IOW a low ratio equating to a higher overall speed -vs- a higher ratio equating a lower overall speed [:D] )

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
Wouldnt the top speed of a geared engine be based on the gearing provided for the engine?

Ok, there's three (actually 4, but the foutrth really doesn't count) types of Geared engines: Shay's, Heisler's and Climax's, Climax's were of a higher gear ratio and were designed for heavy hauling, but the drawback is very slow speeds, it had 2 cylinders that connected to a common lateral driveshaft.

Hiesler's were similar to the Climax, except they were a V2, where the cylinders connected to a common crank shaft that drove the lateral driveshaft (similar to the common automotive setup now), again the Heisler was geared to pull hard and slow.

Then we have the Shay's, which went through many incarnations. First they had two cylinders, and a gear ratio of 4:1 to 6:1, and did infact move a barely faster than a walking man. Lima continued to improve the shay, and added a third cylinder, as well as improved driveshafts and gearing to bring the speeds up. the Shay's at the end were infact capable of around 50 MPH unloaded.

Jay

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NTDN

QUOTE:
Wouldnt the top speed of a geared engine be based on the gearing provided for the engine?

Lima continued to improve the shay, and added a third cylinder, as well as improved driveshafts and gearing to bring the speeds up. the Shay's at the end were infact capable of around 50 MPH unloaded.

Jay

I'd have to see video before I'd believe that. [:D]

[rrnut282]

That's a lot of bushings and bearing and spinning metal to go that fast. Add to it the fact that a Shay's drivetrain was flexible and had a lot of slop to make it around curves and I, too would have to see it to believe it. The ratio on the ring gear/bevel gear would have to be so small as to make it almost impossible for the teeth to mesh properly, or did they make the drive wheels larger to gain all this speed?

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by NTDN

QUOTE:
Wouldnt the top speed of a geared engine be based on the gearing provided for the engine?

Lima continued to improve the shay, and added a third cylinder, as well as improved driveshafts and gearing to bring the speeds up. the Shay's at the end were infact capable of around 50 MPH unloaded.

Jay

I'd have to see video before I'd believe that. [:D]

I'm givin' you all she's got Cap'n.....I dunno how long she can keep it up.. <James Doohan voice>[:)]

[Anonymous]

Just because I said they were capable of it, did not mean that they did it on a regular basis. Fact is, they were hardly ever unloaded (always had cars on them) and running that fast would tear up the bushings and bearings.

Best a shay would run would be about 50% of top speed to keep maintence costs down.

Jay

[Anonymous]

In it's later years, the Graham County RR in North Carolina ran Shay 1925(now at the Spencer RR museum) in passenger and freight service. The tourist runs there started in 1966, and ran until the shut-down of the railroad in the early '80's.[8D]

[Kozzie]

Thanks for all the info crew! [:)]

Jay, even with the 50 percent cut, one could still run a model Shay with maybe a couple of shorter coaches, as long as one kept the scale speed down. [;)] [;)]
From what you've been saying, running a train like that is not far from the realms of what has happened in the past on some small RRs and branch lines...

Peter, is there any chance that the Shay on the Puffing Billy line will be restored to working order or is the funding just too tight?

Mac, can you tell us a little more about the CASS scenic in West Virginia? The photo in May Trains Mag of Autumn colors, I think, taken somewhere in Virginia, looked really pretty. The captioned mentioned the town of Nicelyville...(too small for my US East coast map)

Dave

[TH&B]

Does a shay have good coasting ability?

[Anonymous]

The current Model Railroader article on Sierra RR covers a line that used 'em. The Jamestown-Angels CAmp branch originally used a two truck shay and a two truck Heisler for all freight and passenger traffic. The famous shorty coach and combine were built for this line. Later, the Angels Branch was powered by a pair of Baldwin 2-6-2's. Back east, Pennsylvania's Lewisburg & Buffalo Valley [really just a glorified logging road with some local freight and passenger traffic...] ran a mixed train on their 3 foot gauge line with a Climax. The Climax was geared for faster top speeds, and a later owner of the machine had to run it through the shop to regear it for more typical low speed Climax-type work. BTW 440, a Shay can really roll down hill if she's put in neutral. I suspect some roads required just that to save wear and tear on the gears.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by skeets

The current Model Railroader article on Sierra RR covers a line that used 'em. The Jamestown-Angels CAmp branch originally used a two truck shay and a two truck Heisler for all freight and passenger traffic. The famous shorty coach and combine were built for this line. Later, the Angels Branch was powered by a pair of Baldwin 2-6-2's. Back east, Pennsylvania's Lewisburg & Buffalo Valley [really just a glorified logging road with some local freight and passenger traffic...] ran a mixed train on their 3 foot gauge line with a Climax. The Climax was geared for faster top speeds, and a later owner of the machine had to run it through the shop to regear it for more typical low speed Climax-type work. BTW 440, a Shay can really roll down hill if she's put in neutral. I suspect some roads required just that to save wear and tear on the gears.

Thanks skeets - the good stuff just keeps on coming![:)] Quite a bit for me to absorb and follow up! [:D] [;)]

Dave

[daveklepper]

Regarding the Unitah, didn't they have two articulated trank engines, 2-6-6-2T's or something like that. Weren't they second hand from some other three-foot gauge railroad? Dave

[M636C]

The Ali Shan Shay had been operating up to the time It went to Belgrave, but I recall being told that the boiler was in very poor condition, badly corroded and with bad scale buildup. Now that the 2-6-0+0-6-2 Garratt G42 is working again (which has been a really long term project), the Shay might get some attention.

There was also a standard gauge line in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney NSW from Newnes Junction (Near Clarence and the current preserved Zig Zag Railway) to Newnes and a Shale Oil plant. This used four three truck Shays, including for passenger and mixed trains. There are a number of books describing and illustrating this system.

Peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The Uintah did have a pair of 2-6-6-2T's. They were bought new by Uintah and eventually wound up on International Railways of Central America.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Regarding the Unitah, didn't they have two articulated trank engines, 2-6-6-2T's or something like that. Weren't they second hand from some other three-foot gauge railroad? Dave

Yes they did, and no they were not.

The two 2-6-6-2t articulated engines were purpose built for the Uintah RR by Baldwin. They were the ONLY narrow gauge Articulated engines in the USA. Baldwin built several for lines outside of the US, Mexico, Central America, and South America being the biggest users.

These engines were capable of traversing the 7 1/2 percent grades and 60 degree curves with ease. They served the line for several years but when the line folded, they were sold off to the Sumpter Valley RR. There they had the watertanks removed and were converted to tender engines. The Sumpter Valley didnt last long after receiving the two engines. They were then sold off to a line in Central America where they spent there last days.

While on the Sumpter Valley and in Central America it became apparent that converting them to tender engines had been a very bad idea as the traits that made them such wonderful performers on the Uintah RR , tenatious grip on steep grades and strong traction pulling power, had been lost once the watertanks were removed. Indeed in Central America they had reputation for being "slippery" and had a hard time pulling a moderate train over a 3 1/2 % grade.

They lasted in storage until the early 60's several train buffs were trying to raise fund to purchase one of them and return it to the US but the deal fell thru and they were scrapped. That is a great shame, imaging riding behind one of these restored to a tank type original condition on a line like the Durango & Silverton or the Cumbres & Toltec.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

The Ali Shan Shay had been operating up to the time It went to Belgrave, but I recall being told that the boiler was in very poor condition, badly corroded and with bad scale buildup. Now that the 2-6-0+0-6-2 Garratt G42 is working again (which has been a really long term project), the Shay might get some attention.

There was also a standard gauge line in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney NSW from Newnes Junction (Near Clarence and the current preserved Zig Zag Railway) to Newnes and a Shale Oil plant. This used four three truck Shays, including for passenger and mixed trains. There are a number of books describing and illustrating this system.

Peter

That Garratt is something I would like to see in operation![:)]