Bad News Contest

[ironhorseman]

When I heard about the Amtrak wreck in Mississippi on Tuesday night I predicted to myself that someone won't be able to resist the temptation and will want to take credit for being the very 1st person to start a topic on it. It happend around 6pm and sure enough at 9pm and 2am two topics about it had already been started.

I don't know if anyone else has taken note of it, but it seems every time there's a derailment somewhere someone is always posting a new topic on it. It's as if there were some kind of contest to be the first person to break any bad news as soon as possible after the incident. And then lots of other people chime in about what THEY THINK the cause is and who THEY THINK is to blame and how THEY THINK this new derailment will adversely affect railroad integrity with public relations. And in a time when we're a full-fledged war with terrorism the common speculation is the wreck or accident was some kind of terror act. It's all opinions and politics.

Folks, this isn't necessary. It's nothing more than coffee shop/barber shop/knitting club/etc gossip. I didn't come here to see a bunch of people spread rumors and speculation on something they don't know anything about only to have a general consensus JUMP to a premeditated conclusion that is entirely false, misleading, or inaccurate. If I wanted to do that I'd turn on CNN or an ESPN sports-talk show.

Some people are so damned determined that every accident was a result of terrorism. Some are little, just a little, more rational in saying that the accident was some kind of mechanical or structural failure, but then fault by saying they know specifically what caused it. Others do a good job trying to stop the guessing game by explaining of all different kinds of scenarios that can cause an accident and nothing can be known for sure at this time, but nonetheless others ignore that advice and go right on back to speculating.

The points are: 1) it is not a productive area of discussion and 2) you don't know for sure. The investigators are at the scene of this latest Amtrak wreck and it may be days, weeks, or months before they will know the exact cause. They have to conduct interviews, examine the scene, and research the history of the section of track before they can even think about drawing a conclusion. Think about the shuttle Columbia's accident. The media picked up on the idea that the foam punctured a hole in the craft and that hole caused the problem upon re-entry, and even though NASA found this to be true it would have been very irresponsible to jump to this conclusion with out conducting a very thorough investigation to prove this. If they hadn't they could overlook something else very important.

And all this goes for the rumor mergers, too. You don't what railroads are going to merge and when. To try and predict a merger or the cause of an accident is just like gambling. How do you know for certain UP and CSX (as an example) are going to merge? You don't. Just pick two railroads, predict they'll merge, and if they do were right, but you weren't right. You didn't know. You gambled on the chance that it might happen and it did. All your speculation on what the cause of the Amtrak wreck in Mississippi is is just that: speculation. Odds are somebody's speculation will be right, but it's not based on any evidence or anything other than probability. (As I've asked before and never got an answer too: what goes on in a merger? How does it happen? What takes places? What are the logistics? To me that would be more interesting and productive than hearing "so-and-so will merge, based on circumstantial evidence, and everybody will lose! blah blah blah")

If you want to be the first person to bring people breaking news may I suggest you apply for a job to some news organization? Otherwise I want to urge everyone to please resist the temptation of being the first in line on this kind of stuff and resist adding to gossip. No one's getting credit or being the first to break the news. Or is that what most people here want? Rumors and gossip? Nothing can be learned from rumors and gossip except the character of the person spreading it.

Sorry if I sound berating, but I just felt like something had to be said.

[tree68]

While I agree that the terrorism hysteria that often accompanies accidents is unwarranted, as is a lot of the wild speculation, this forum can (and likely does) serve as a form of rumor control, and a source of education. Many of our members are just learning about railroads and this is a great source for them.

This forum is about our favorite transportation industry, railroads. Something that affects it is of interest to a lot of us, even if it occurs on the other side of the country. I don't mind a factual post about an event - it may not hit the news here unless it's really big (how many of you heard about the big derailment in Watertown a couple of months ago? Didn't think so.)

On the other hand, I agree fully that posts that begin (in fact or in spirit) with "I think" have no place here, as applied to the causes of an incident. "I heard" might be appropriate, especially if one doesn't understand it and wants some clarification ("I heard that the framis broke in the divariable friebersitcher - what the heck is a framis?")

Accusations have absolutely no place in this type of thread ("The engineer had better not have had his girlfriend in the cab!" or "Was the engineer on his cell phone?") They aren't even speculation - they more than likely reflect the writer's personal prejudices and will invariably start a good flame war.

So - my recommendations:
1. If there is a significant news event (or an insignificant one), post away. If it doesn't interest anyone, it will quickly fade from view.
2. If you don't have facts to add, or a reasonable question to ask about the facts presented, just read the thread and move on.
3. If somebody decides to post something inflammatory or otherwise irrelevant, resist the urge to reply in kind. If you don't encourage them, they'll eventually go away.

[edblysard]

Psssst..anyone want to break it to them that this is a electronic barbershop/coffee house?

But instead of going to the corner coffee house, you go to your computer desk.

And like any coffee house group, there is allways one or two doomsayers, but because you like the rest of the company, you put up with them.

And I wonder, did you notice that almost every railroader here didnt respond?
We are, on occasion, smart enough that, when asked what happened, to answer "I wasnt there, so I dont know".

It should also be noted that almost every posting in response to the doomsayers was of the opinion that terrorist were not involved?

I mentioned in one of "those" threads that derailments are a fact of business at railroads, every hour of every day, somewhere in America, a train is on the ground, be it a simple yard bo-bo, to a major lines "aw crap" its a part of the life.

Funny, you never read about UPS trucks having a flat tire, but thats part of their business as much as derailments are part of the railroad business...

Ed

[Anonymous]

I have to agree fewer threads on train disasters, and more threads on the next american idol winners.

[Anonymous]

I guess I agree with Ed. I tend to post the "if you don't know..." kind of posting because I hate the tendency to have to find somebody to blame for everything. Nowadays it seems terrorism is hot. In the past people looked to blame overworked crews or MOW folks. As has been pointed out above many have no idea what they are talking about. I don't pretend to know. I only know that I don't know as Ed points out.

LC

[Anonymous]

I agree

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

This forum to me is a tool that I use in the field, I scan and pick out the subjects that either interest or pertain to me and the work that I do.

Those who are trying to make a particular point have every right to do so, and then I may exercise my right to skip over it.

Accident opinions usually come from some sort of experience, and I will take these opinions and either share them with my seasoned co-workers or file them away in my grey matter as {another thing to watch out for}

More times than not, one of my co-workers will express the same thought that I have read here in these postings.

So I hope that no one will change their posting habits, your opinions may save someone from getting hurt or worse some day, myself included.

Sincerely
A shiny new A/C

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ironhorseman

When I heard about the Amtrak wreck in Mississippi on Tuesday night I predicted to myself that someone won't be able to resist the temptation and will want to take credit for being the very 1st person to start a topic on it. It happend around 6pm and sure enough at 9pm and 2am two topics about it had already been started.

I don't know if anyone else has taken note of it, but it seems every time there's a derailment somewhere someone is always posting a new topic on it. It's as if there were some kind of contest to be the first person to break any bad news as soon as possible after the incident. And then lots of other people chime in about what THEY THINK the cause is and who THEY THINK is to blame and how THEY THINK this new derailment will adversely affect railroad integrity with public relations. And in a time when we're a full-fledged war with terrorism the common speculation is the wreck or accident was some kind of terror act. It's all opinions and politics.

Folks, this isn't necessary. It's nothing more than coffee shop/barber shop/knitting club/etc gossip. I didn't come here to see a bunch of people spread rumors and speculation on something they don't know anything about only to have a general consensus JUMP to a premeditated conclusion that is entirely false, misleading, or inaccurate. If I wanted to do that I'd turn on CNN or an ESPN sports-talk show.

Some people are so damned determined that every accident was a result of terrorism. Some are little, just a little, more rational in saying that the accident was some kind of mechanical or structural failure, but then fault by saying they know specifically what caused it. Others do a good job trying to stop the guessing game by explaining of all different kinds of scenarios that can cause an accident and nothing can be known for sure at this time, but nonetheless others ignore that advice and go right on back to speculating.

The points are: 1) it is not a productive area of discussion and 2) you don't know for sure. The investigators are at the scene of this latest Amtrak wreck and it may be days, weeks, or months before they will know the exact cause. They have to conduct interviews, examine the scene, and research the history of the section of track before they can even think about drawing a conclusion. Think about the shuttle Columbia's accident. The media picked up on the idea that the foam punctured a hole in the craft and that hole caused the problem upon re-entry, and even though NASA found this to be true it would have been very irresponsible to jump to this conclusion with out conducting a very thorough investigation to prove this. If they hadn't they could overlook something else very important.

And all this goes for the rumor mergers, too. You don't what railroads are going to merge and when. To try and predict a merger or the cause of an accident is just like gambling. How do you know for certain UP and CSX (as an example) are going to merge? You don't. Just pick two railroads, predict they'll merge, and if they do were right, but you weren't right. You didn't know. You gambled on the chance that it might happen and it did. All your speculation on what the cause of the Amtrak wreck in Mississippi is is just that: speculation. Odds are somebody's speculation will be right, but it's not based on any evidence or anything other than probability. (As I've asked before and never got an answer too: what goes on in a merger? How does it happen? What takes places? What are the logistics? To me that would be more interesting and productive than hearing "so-and-so will merge, based on circumstantial evidence, and everybody will lose! blah blah blah")

If you want to be the first person to bring people breaking news may I suggest you apply for a job to some news organization? Otherwise I want to urge everyone to please resist the temptation of being the first in line on this kind of stuff and resist adding to gossip. No one's getting credit or being the first to break the news. Or is that what most people here want? Rumors and gossip? Nothing can be learned from rumors and gossip except the character of the person spreading it.

Sorry if I sound berating, but I just felt like something had to be said.

not to get off suject to much...but a little hunk of insider info for you merger thought...
csx and up are in bed together..and have been in bed together for some years... only reson why they havent done anything to merge yet is the STBs freeze on all mergers of class 1 roads untill a 5 year waiting peroid has expired..starting june first of 99..(the conrail split date) also from talking to some crews on NS... BNSF put up a large hunk of capital for NS to get its part of gonrail.. so that makes NS/BNSF in it together...
so just an FYI... watch and see what happens in the next few years
csx engineer

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Psssst..anyone want to break it to them that this is a electronic barbershop/coffee house?

But instead of going to the corner coffee house, you go to your computer desk.

Nicely put, Ed!

[wabash1]

Iron horseman , ed and others let me see if i can shed some light on this.

I have heard this from the engineers second cousin steps brothers fathern in law grand pa while i was sitting on a bar stool in iraq drinking a domestic beer. so you know its true.

The engineer of this train was not in rule g violation and while he was running in notch 8 with a girl on the phone and one on his lap he missed the last 2 green signals he had, while he was in dark territory . train speed was 6x the power of pie at 3 telephone poles per hour. as they rounded the curve and was comming down a slight downgrade ( 18.5%) the engineer was busy ( as the in flight recorder ) and ( the on board cameras) showed . this engine saw a blind crossing ahead and the M&M twins standing there . Not wanting to let the engineer get in trouble the engine applyed lots of braking forces to slow down. ( so that the M&M twins with cameras and fra men around ) wouldnt have any reason for a fight about this crossing. then ( bartender set us up. Im copying from my notes here) while slowing down the slack run in and upset the cars . not wanting to hurt anyone the cars aimed them selves at the creek but since it has been dry for awhile there was no water to soften the blow. so some aimed at trees ( soft pines but missed) the engine was reported as saying that he saw missouri and thought he had a towel on his head, but in fact it was a halo. this is why so much braking forces was applyed.

now the ntsb came out and investigated and found that the 15th hole par 6 double boggy of the 1400th car was missing and that the bearing in question was not found they also found a hair line crack in a piece of ballast on the FEC line around the city of out back in the virgin islands. the investigation still continous as why the terroist put this piece of ballast at this point. and that the investigation could take decades to finish. the angels on track orginazation will be notified . and swift anti railroad properganda will be forth comming on the crossing in omaha nebraska .

[tree68]

So the framis didn't break in the divariable freibersitcher?

[Nora]

Bizarre Rambling Humor World Series:

wabash1: 1
rixflix: 0

[:D]

[edblysard]

On a scale of 1 to 10, I would give that one a 9 1/2, nice beat, but hard to dance too!

Ed[:D]

[zardoz]

wabash1 & tree68--

that was some of the funniest collection of railroad & other terminologies mixed together I have ever seen.


I loved it! [tup]

[ironhorseman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gnenjnj

This forum to me is a tool that I use in the field, I scan and pick out the subjects that either interest or pertain to me and the work that I do.

Those who are trying to make a particular point have every right to do so, and then I may exercise my right to skip over it.

Accident opinions usually come from some sort of experience, and I will take these opinions and either share them with my seasoned co-workers or file them away in my grey matter as {another thing to watch out for}

More times than not, one of my co-workers will express the same thought that I have read here in these postings.

So I hope that no one will change their posting habits, your opinions may save someone from getting hurt or worse some day, myself included.

Sincerely
A shiny new A/C

I'm just trying to say exersise responsibility. If someone wants to really be known for spreading rumors or unfounded speculation how can I stop them? Also, on the otherhand, opinions are a barometer of the attitude of what people think. Even if they're wrong it still shows what their impressions are, no matter how unhealthy. That's why I chimed in. I'm just advising to exercise caution and restraint before making unfounded speculation. I just think it's a bad habit to always jump to conclusions based on speculation. Or even be the first to take credit for being the first to post the bad news (which spawns all the other stuff that follows).

[wabash1]

Iron horseman

Trust me you have never read a post from me of anything that deals with a big accident til the truth comes out. and from a credited source. like the fra or the nstb or the utu ( well maybe not the utu) but get the picture. I agree that some people enjoy posting and then try impressing others with this stuff. The only thing i can say is sometimes posting just the news is fine. and until you get a official report from the people investigating. ( not the locale news team who wouldnt know a drawhead from a knuckle pin) make no comments. all i was doing was putting some humor with the bs ( or at least a attempt at it) and I have read some post on here and some guys playing both sides of the fence. I wont mention names just read. im not going to get into name calling either.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zardoz

wabash1 & tree68--

that was some of the funniest collection of railroad & other terminologies mixed together I have ever seen.

I loved it! [tup]

Lord knows we try![:D]

[eolafan]

Good news or bad news, it's all part of life (like it or not) and is thus fair game for any form, this one included.

[Big_Boy_4005]

People, I don't see anything wrong with speculation or EDUCATED GUESSES regarding the cause of a rail related incitent. Everyone has an opinion already formed, and anything found on the internet here or anywhere else will not change reality. It is human nature to want to try and solve mysteries. We who feel that we have a better than average understanding of railroads should freely voice our opinions, and register our guesses, because thay have NO EFFECT ON REALITY. The TAIL, us, cannot wag the DOG, reality, so why worry.

No, the real problem here, is the need for speed!!!! Why do we even have these topics about rail related incidents HERE anyway. And why do some members seem to feel the need to report these happenings first. This is not a forum for the media, and posting clippings of news stories does not serve anyone. Ignoring them is certainly one solution, however, trying to get the members not to even post this nonsense in the first place would remove the temptation for others to post a response at all.

I don't usually start topics, and sometimes I try to end them.

In the case of the most recent Amtrak incident, it is perfectly safe to say that something broke!!! Because if that had not been the case, the train would have continued on its way and safely reached its destination. From the photos, we all know that did not happen. I don't know what broke, I don't care what broke, something broke.

That is a far cry form "someone did something" to cause this. I do not believe that, and I will do everything that I can to dispel that notion. I think that most of the members would agree with that sentiment, and would do likewise, as it will most likely be the conclusion of the investigators as well.

This country's legal system is founded on the belief of innocent until proven guilty. We live in the court of public opinion, we aren't on the jury, what we say counts for NOTHING!!! That goes double for the media!!!!