Trackside Transition Era

[jwhitten]

During the transition era when steam was being replaced with diesels:

-- How quickly did the transition occur for most RR's (and in my own specific case, the PRR)? Was it regionalized? (I.e. some regions transitioned before others?) If so, how & why?

-- How quickly after dieselisation occurred did the steam support structures disappear? (Water towers, coaling facilities, etc)-- I know that some stuff was left in-place until even just a few years ago in some places-- how common is that?)

-- What steam-support structures would have been the first to go? (Water towers?)

-- What about roundhouses... were RR's quick to remove them? Or were they useful into the diesel era? What considerations were, uh, considered by the RR's to remove them / determine they were no longer useful or that some other (type of) structure would be more suitable? (I.e. Why knock down a perfectly good facility just to put up another one?)

-- With road diesels being commonly used in pairs, that all but eliminated the need for turntables-- if a RR had them, how quickly were they replaced / removed? What other uses were there to justify their existance (turning RPO cars, turning E/F-bodies, etc)? 

-- Let's say you were modelling the PRR in 1958-1960 (Last PRR steam a year or so prior) [if you're modelling some other road, adjust the time for that road] -- how likely would you be to see the vestiges of steam (support structures) along the route? Would they be entirely un-maintained? Re-purposed for something else? Run-down and decrepit?

[carnej1]

 I think you could start by entering  "pennsylvania railroad" and "transition era" into google and going from there. I know a number of books have been written about that very subject. The "Keystone Crossings" website as well as the PRR historical society sites might be good places to begin.

[trainfan1221]

I'm sure this all varied for different railroads.  Remember also that the full effect of dieselization was held up by World War II.

[jwhitten]

Yes, that's what occurred to me too. I had originally been wanting to model the transition era and have a mix of steam and diesel. But lately I've been reconsidering and thinking maybe I would go just a little further along the timeline and model all diesel. And so I started thinking about what that would look like and how long the process took, particularly for the pennsy.

[Ishmael]

If you're going to model the PRR, it may be a lifetime job. There are, I would guess, more books written about the Pennsy than any other RR, and possibly a greater variety of rolling stock and motive power then any other RR. That's just during the diesel era.

I've gotten many thrills out of the PRR, even being at their last outpost. Seeing the T-1 4-4-4-4's climbing the approach to the MacArthur bridge here in St. Louis is one of my best memories.

Good luck to you, and get started.

 

[trainfan1221]

The Pennsy had enough going on to be interesting in any era.  Even their diesels were unique looking with those roof antennas.

[Ulrich]

I'm not sure about the Pennsy...but steam era infrastructure...including coaling towers and water tanks.. was around well into the mid 1970s where I come from, Sherbrooke, Quebec.

[Railway Man]

During the transition era when steam was being replaced with diesels:

-- How quickly did the transition occur for most RR's (and in my own specific case, the PRR)? Was it regionalized? (I.e. some regions transitioned before others?) If so, how & why?

On large railroads the transition lasted more than 20 years (UP, for example).  CB&Q actually exceeded 30 years from the Pioneer Zephyr through to the last 2-8-0 on subsidiary C&S on the Climax Branch.  Small roads sometimes transitioned literally overnight.  Medium-sized Class Is usually required 10-15 years, if you count from the day the first diesel-electric appeared (often a passenger locomotive) to the day the last steam engine disappeared.

-- How quickly after dieselisation occurred did the steam support structures disappear? (Water towers, coaling facilities, etc)-- I know that some stuff was left in-place until even just a few years ago in some places-- how common is that?)

-- What steam-support structures would have been the first to go? (Water towers?)

There's still quite a bit of infrastructure around and I expect there will be in 20 years, too, such as turntables, water towers, and some enginehouses.  Coaling towers and ash-handling facilities were very quickly wiped out except for concrete structures that would be costly to demolish, as they had no possible future purpose.  There are a few that remain.  Sanding facilities and water tanks remained in large numbers in terminals as they had value.  Often the fire-fighting or water-supply system in a terminal incorporated the water towers so there was good reason not to demolish them.  Water towers out on the line, and water-treatment plants, were wiped out with few exceptions quickly.  But even there many remain still.

-- What about roundhouses... were RR's quick to remove them? Or were they useful into the diesel era? What considerations were, uh, considered by the RR's to remove them / determine they were no longer useful or that some other (type of) structure would be more suitable? (I.e. Why knock down a perfectly good facility just to put up another one?)

  In rough numbers 90 percent of the roundhouses were demolished within a decade.  Many roundhouses were reduced in size during the transition era.  It's not so much that roundhouses aren't useful for diesels but that they aren't needed as the diesel-electric needs so vastly much less service.  Keeping the roundhouse usually meant keeping the turntable -- a troublesome and high-maintenance machine -- as well as the liability of the thing burning down.  There's still a few roundhouses left in use, but more common are the straight-rail enginehouses that did not require a turntable.  Some roundhouses were converted to garages for rubber-tired equipment maintenance or storage, or other maintenance uses.

-- With road diesels being commonly used in pairs, that all but eliminated the need for turntables-- if a RR had them, how quickly were they replaced / removed? What other uses were there to justify their existance (turning RPO cars, turning E/F-bodies, etc)? 

About the only justification for keeping them was at locomotive backshops where it's often useful to have the locomotive facing the other way for heavy repairs or overhauls.

RWM

[Ishmael]

RWM you did an excellent summation and it should be enough to get jwhitten started. I just wanted to mention, jwhitten, that as you are in northern VA, you might want to take a run up to Baltimore and see the old roundhouse of the Maryland & Pennsylvania. It is still standing, and is used by the city to store road maintenance trucks and materials.

It is on Falls Road, and while you're there, visit the Baltimore Streetcar Museum, if you're so inclined. They run cars along Falls Road.

[jwhitten]

Railway Man-- Thanks for the extremely detailed answer. That's exactly what I wanted to know. That will help me a lot in making a decision regarding the era of my layout and how to model the various facilities. I didn't know that about the fire-fighting facilities. That's a good tip.

My goal is to ultimately select a specific year for my layout. Right now I'm all over the place, but have been vacillating between the end of the transition-era (for Pennsy) specifically, say somewhere between 1955-1957, or else a little later after steam but before PRR became PC, say mid 60's. I have a large roster of locos and rolling stock that spans this entire timeframe. When I make a final decision it will shelf one end or the other.

OTOH, I was wondering if I set it up for mid 60's, how out of whack (anachronistic) it would appear if I wanted to run the steam stuff for awhile, sometimes. Sure I know its my own railroad and I can do what I want, but my goal is to pay attention to specifics of the era and the prototype for modeling and operations. I know I could always do the "excursion" trick, but that seems a little cheesy, and would only be good for one or two locos anyway... how many excursions can you have before the citizenry gets suspicious anyway?? :)

Thank you again, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

John