New York Central Dome Cars?

[pajrr]

Can anybody help to answer a question? Did the New York Central ever operate a dome car? If so, how was it painted and on what train did it operate? A friend of mine seema to remember seeing a dome car on the Big Four Route in the late 50's- early 60's. Any help anyone can give would be appreciated. Thanks. PAJRR

[passengerfan]

Your friend must have mistaken an RDC for a dome car as the nYC never owned a dome car. They did operate a train that operated over part of its route with a dome car the Laurentian. But the NYC part of the trip between Albany and New York City was minus the dome. Only between Albany and Montreal did the dome cars operate. They were two leased CP dome cars of the Skyline variety. They were painted in D&H colors while on lease.

[Anonymous]

Could there be a problem here with "leased dome cars?" Just asking.

[passengerfan]

Ted I have some pretty complete dome car records and have never turned anything up under NYC leased or otherwise. The two leased domes from the CP were leased to the D&H and were unable to operate south of albany due to clearances on the NYC part of the trip into New York City.
As a general rule it seems that dome cars were rarely interlined except in the case of through trains such as the Empire Buildwer that operated between Chicago and St. Paul on the CB&Q and from St. Paul to Seattle on the GN. This was true of the UP streamliners that operated between Chicago and Omaha over the Milwaukee Road.
The IC, PRR and ACL all leased dome cars in winter months the latter from the B&O the two previous from the NP the IC repainted the NP domes each winter to IC colors and returned them each spring in a fresh coat of NP paint. The PRR and ACL operated the leased domes in the other roads colors. But I can find no record anywhere of the NYC even operating domes on there lines.

[Anonymous]

I seem to recall that the IC also rented at least one dome from the MP/T&P. This was a carbon steel (smooth side) P-S dome coach, and the corner windows of the dome had been blanked out. This car (or cars) got painted in the lessee road's colors as well.

I also seem to recall that SR may have leased a couple of SS domes and run them on the SC (I think south of ATL??) for a season or two. This is post-1971 but before ATK takeover of SR service. They couldn't get them through the Capitol Hill tunnel as clearances were too tight--this is why Auto Train started in Lorton. Hope this is accurate.

Neither NYC nor PRR or any other eastern RR could get domes through the tunnels, under overpasses or (in the case of PRR) safely under the wire. B&O could, but they evacuated the dome seats when they went under the wire going into and out of WAS, just in case a problem cropped up. And, the B&O domes were lower than the western domes as well.

Now, from the lower fourth of the country, another interesting sidelight re: domes. They may have played in Peoria but they never played well down south (and southwest), even though they would fit under the bridges (what's a tunnel??). The HVAC was entirely inadequate for the large variations in solar radiation load, particularly in the summer (which is about 10 months as a practical matter). Simply put, the dome would greenhouse. And when you turned the AC up to get it tolerably cool, you froze out the folks on the lower level, and when the sun went down, you froze out everybody. And on a real hot day, you cooked everybody, upstairs and down, because the AC just could not keep up against the incoming radiated heat from the dome, even though the glass was tinted. In the winter on cold, nasty overcast days, it worked in reverse--freeze in the dome and sweat down below. ATSF had the exact same problem when they put the Big Domes on the TX Chief in 1968 after the demise of the Chief. So did ATK when they put the CZ obs cars on the DAL section of 15/16 and then on the Sunset, even in spite of the shade and partial filtration from the filthy dome glass. The most southern domes in regular service during their heyday in the 50's and early 60's were on the MP and T&P (STL-SAT and STL-FTW). The crews I knew hated them for the reasons stated above. You never could strike a balance to keep the pax comfortable, so you spent all your time spinning the t-stat dial and dealing with complaints. Institutional attitudes notwithstanding (and the Jenks-era MoP/T&P certainly had no shortage of hostility toward pax), about the only people who complained when Jenks pulled the Eagle's Planetarium Domes off in the 1960's were the railfans who never rode in them.

Ignore Russell, Biaggini, Jenks, Deramus and Co. There really are good technical reasons why those guys didn't do much (or anything) with domes on the southern runs.

The Superliners came along after some very significant advances in glass technology, and the sightseer lounges use far superior glass, insofar as UV reflectivity, and much better AC than was even dreamed about in the dome era. That's the only reason they work where the domes wouldn't.

[passengerfan]

Actually the IC owned some former MP domes purchased in June 1967. Three were former Budd domes and three were form P/S domes.The three Budd domes were numbered 2200-2202 and the three P/S domes were numbered 2210 - 2212. The IC blanked out the forward facing glass on all of these domes before being repainted and entering IC service on the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS , and CITY OF MIAMI with spare domes operaing in GREEN DIAMOND until that train disc.

The domes operated in the Southern Crescent pre-Amtrak were owned by the Central of Georgia who originally leased then purchased them from Norfolk and Western. Both were originally Wabash domes. The Southern Railway assigned them to the Southern Crescent between Atlanta and New Orleans.

You are absolutely right about the tunnel in Washington clearance problem for domes. That was why when the ACL operated leased domes from B&O in the winter they operated from Richmond to Miami only in the Florida Special. Later the SCL did thee same when they purchased the same domes.

You are right about the domes operated in the southwest having problems reaching any kind of balance throughout the car on warm days or vice versa on the coldest days with sunshine in the southwest. That is why I was always able to find a dome seat in the Super Chief in the sothwest part of its run New Mexico in particular. I heard many people on the Super Chief complain as the train left Chicago or Los Angeles about the number of dome seats but the next day those same people were seldom in the dome as the train was traveling across New Mexicoi except for the part of the trip over Raton Pass.
You were absolutely right about the MP domes in Texas. The two trains the MP domes operated in successfully were the COLORADO EAGLE and MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE trains.

Having ridden the EL CAPITANS on numerous occasions the upper level of the "Top of the Cap" lounge cars were almost always well patronized as was the lower level lounge.

The CB&Q, UP, GN, NP and SP seemed to have the fewest problems with there domes year round.

The AT&SF operated there big domes on the EL Capitan before I rode that train. I did ride the Kansas Cityan and Chicagoan when big domes were operated and they did not seem to have a problem. I rode the San francisco Chief for a short distance only so cannot comment on the Big Dome.

The Superliner lounges are quite comfortable on either level and like you say don't seem to have a problem.

I am quite curious about the latest Ultra-domes how they stand up to heat. Although they seem to operate in either Western Canada or Alaska as this is written so don't suspect they have any significant problem.
I undertsand the newest of these are now going into service on the Alaska railroad that have an upper level open observation platform at one end, this should be rather interesting. All previous Ultra Domes with an open observation platform have been on the lower level.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pajrr

Can anybody help to answer a question? Did the New York Central ever operate a dome car? If so, how was it painted and on what train did it operate? A friend of mine seema to remember seeing a dome car on the Big Four Route in the late 50's- early 60's. Any help anyone can give would be appreciated. Thanks. PAJRR

In 1947 the dome equipped GM Train of Tomorrow ran over the NYC.Because of clearence problems on the main line it ran over the Putnam branch.Could this be the train your friend saw?

[Anonymous]

PF--

Yeah, the ATSF line was just far enough north that the problem wasn't as bad. They were about on the southern edge of viability for the domes.

Thx for the nice comments.

Espee--

Probably not. By the late 50's the TOT had been in the PDX-SEA pool for about 10 years. He may be thinking about the radiators on an RDC, which can look sort of like a dome at long range.

[Champlain Division]

Gentlemen,

Leased CP Skyline Dome lounge cars operated on the  the Amtrak/D&H/NYSDOT Adirondack for about a year after their inaugural trip in August 1974.  No, they did not operate south of Albany, but that was Amtrak to Grand Central; not NYC, not PC and not Conrail.  After that Amtrak supplied it's own domes until the Turboliners killed the D&H equipment and PAs.  Interestingly, today Amtrak operates their sole Great Dome on the route during Autumn because of it's spectacular foliage and general great scenery along Lake Champlain.

D&H's Laurentian and Montreal Limited died with the advent of Amtrak in 1971 and never ran any domes.  A lot of NYC and PC cars ran through to Montreal on those trains though.  In fact, before the PAs came along very often the only D&H equipment would have been the locomotive and the baggage car with the revenue cars being all NYC.

[Deggesty]

This may not have been regular operation on the Louisiana Eagle, but I saw a dome on the westbound train once in New Orleans about 1965, as I recall. I wished I were going west instead of north on the Creole that day.

Al, it's good to see your comments again; where have you been?

[tomikawaTT]

The really important NYC trains ran from GCT to wherever - and all of them had to clear the overhead third rail (!) in the GTC throat and the solid rock tunnels at the Hudson Narrows north of Peekskill.  Take a look at NYC steam compared to locos of the same type and power on the Santa Fe.  The 6000's had everything cleaned off or depressed into the boiler top to hold the clearance to 15 feet 3 inches - a foot shorter than ATSF or SP locos.  The Hudson Narrows tunnels were the reason.

Now, measure the height of a dome car...

Chuck (ex-NYC railfan, 58 years removed)

[BaltACD]

All the information one would ever desire about dome cars

http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/