Did the president of the Santa Fe or the railroad's management hated steam and wanted diesel-electric locomotives.
Not nearly so much so as other railroads.
Santa Fe was identified by the U.S. government as a critical rail link to the war effort in shifting from the European Theater of operations to the Pacific.
Also, they did test the FT demonstrators and were happy with the performance, while other railroads with more entrenched dinosaur senior managers (including but not limited to Union Pacific) did not speak up at the time in favor of acquiring diesels.
As a result, Santa Fe, a "critically important" rail link, was able to get the lion's share of new FT's when other railroads could not get them at all.
Regarding steam power, they ran their steam power very late into the 1950's, after many other railroads had retired all their steam.
Unlike NYC and DRGW, whose management staffs believed strongly in completely erasing every vestige of the (at least standard gauge) steam era, Santa Fe's management graciously donated a relatively large number of steam engines to various towns and parks, and also held a few engines in a special collection, tucked inside a roundhouse in New Mexico, for many years.
Just prior to the SPSF merger that failed, they donated those last locomotives (including a 4-8-4 and 2-10-4 #5021) to museums. They were in such a good condition (with working axle bearings--they had periodically been moved to keep the journals free) that they might someday have run again at the time they were donated, but the 2-10-4 #5021 sitting outside for so many years since may not be in the condition it was at the time of donation. One of the Santa Fe 4-8-4's (I think it's #2903) is currently undergoing restoration to run again, in addition to #3751.
Santa Fe did a lot more than some to get the most out of their steam power and to preserve the legacy...They used the 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's in the New Mexico desert, as helpers, into either 1956 or 1957.
Considering there are zero large engines remaining from NYC or Rio Grande, Santa Fe fans should consider themselves quite fortunate that so many were saved, and a few are capable of running yet again with proper investment.
John
The Santa Fe ran through bad water territory - including stretches where there wasn't much water at all. Think about the impact on the bottom line of:
Then somebody comes along and says, "I can sell you locomotives that DON'T USE WATER BY THE TENDERFUL." What would your reaction be?
Chuck
Though Santa Fe had some modern engines built during the early 1940's (4-8-4's and 2-10-4's), they did not have modern steamers in quite the numbers of other large railroads like UP and Norfolk and Western (who continued building their own into 1953).
Both UP and N&W ran their steam later than Santa Fe--but they had much more of it, and relatively speaking, much more of their fleets consisted of the most modern steamers.
UP and N&W continued servicing steam very late into the 1950's, stored large numbers of engines in freshly shopped condition (had to keep shop forces busy, right), and thus wasted perhaps more usable remaining miles than Santa Fe did (although some freshly shopped Santa Fe power went to scrap too, it seems not quite in the large numbers as compared to UP and N&W).
N&W was scrapping 7 or 8 year old, state of the art 2-8-8-2's, partly because parts inventories from suppliers were beginning to run thin, and their flue time was up and it was cheaper to scrap them than to rebuild them--that's how some older steamers outlasted the newest.
Santa Fe got more than 8 years out of all their motive power, as a minimum.
Also--N&W's scrapping of steam was a major financial move to shore up their stock profits as part of acquiring other railways. The accountants decided it was much cheaper to lease diesels than to keep the steam power they owned outright--but declining parts supplies also played a role for both N&W and UP.
My 2c.
UP 4-12-2 Not nearly so much so as other railroads. Santa Fe was identified by the U.S. government as a critical rail link to the war effort in shifting from the European Theater of operations to the Pacific. Also, they did test the FT demonstrators and were happy with the performance, while other railroads with more entrenched dinosaur senior managers (including but not limited to Union Pacific) did not speak up at the time in favor of acquiring diesels. As a result, Santa Fe, a "critically important" rail link, was able to get the lion's share of new FT's when other railroads could not get them at all. Regarding steam power, they ran their steam power very late into the 1950's, after many other railroads had retired all their steam. Unlike NYC and DRGW, whose management staffs believed strongly in completely erasing every vestige of the (at least standard gauge) steam era, Santa Fe's management graciously donated a relatively large number of steam engines to various towns and parks, and also held a few engines in a special collection, tucked inside a roundhouse in New Mexico, for many years. Just prior to the SPSF merger that failed, they donated those last locomotives (including a 4-8-4 and 2-10-4 #5021) to museums. They were in such a good condition (with working axle bearings--they had periodically been moved to keep the journals free) that they might someday have run again at the time they were donated, but the 2-10-4 #5021 sitting outside for so many years since may not be in the condition it was at the time of donation. One of the Santa Fe 4-8-4's (I think it's #2903) is currently undergoing restoration to run again, in addition to #3751. Santa Fe did a lot more than some to get the most out of their steam power and to preserve the legacy...They used the 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's in the New Mexico desert, as helpers, into either 1956 or 1957. Considering there are zero large engines remaining from NYC or Rio Grande, Santa Fe fans should consider themselves quite fortunate that so many were saved, and a few are capable of running yet again with proper investment. John
The 2926 is under restoration and should run for the 150th New Mexico celebration.
The single largest factor with steam on the SF was the lack of water in the southwest. The SF used to haul water tank cars to certain locations to provide water for locomotives. It was always a problem with steam and the water had to be treated to be used in the locomotives. The FT's solved that problem along with boiler inspections and reduced maintenance cycles and closed many back shops to overhaul steam engines.
CZ
CZ--
I'm well aware of the bad water problem, but UP and SP and others faced the same challenges. The bad water in itself did not deter UP from running their steam engines late into the 1950's. The white stains all over their boilers are a result of the bad water. In the photos of UP 4-12-2 9000 running over Cajon to its final resting place at the LA County Fairgrounds, it had been freshly painted (prior to a recent fan trip) yet evidenced the white stains of bad water!
It was more than just merely bad water. The Santa Fe management was more "progressive", whereas the top UP officials (above the level of Otto Jabelman--who wanted diesels) at the time of the FT Demonstrator Tests believed the diesel would only ever be a yard switcher, and not nearly as good for road power as steam. This was well documented by Kratville in his interviews with former UP employees and other firsthand witnesses at the time. Given an opportunity by the U.S. government to request whatever motive power they "needed", with WWII looming--in essence, virtually a "blank check"--UP opted to pass on the acquisition of any FT's. They were not alone!
To boil it all down to bad water in the desert is in my opinion an oversimplification. That was only part of the picture.
A correction must be made saying there zero large NYC steam engines remaining. When in fact there are two NYC Mohawks still in existance. One is in St. Louis & the other is in Elkhart IN.
Rob
Sorry Rob--
I had read there were none. "Believe half of what you read".
Sorry for the error.
There are zero large Rio Grande steamers, and only one standard gauge Rio Grande steamer survived at all.
No problem John, what you might have read is that no NYC Hudson's, the primary passenger engine for the NYC surived the scrappers torch. Which the NYC had more 4-6-4's than any other rairoad.
Fortunately, the ATSF "hogged" FT production so the SP acquired additional easily obtained and proven cab-ahead articulated steam locomotives from Baldwin.
Mark
UP 4-12-2 "--UP opted to pass on the acquisition of any FT's. They were not alone! To boil it all down to bad water in the desert is in my opinion an oversimplification. That was only part of the picture. My 2c. John
"--UP opted to pass on the acquisition of any FT's. They were not alone!
The Union Pacific dieselized the Salt Lake to LA in late1947 era for the same reasons. The UP had a few helpers on Cajon up to 1950, but steam was pulled fairly early in the Southwest area for long runs. The maintenance and number of people it took to maintain steam was the next factor in using diesels. If you get a chance to read some of the advertisments in old Trains magazines from the end of WW II until about 1955, you can read the how EMD and other diesel companies graphed out costs to maintain and run both types of motive power. I am not sure if all of the ads were totally true, but the end cost was much less to operate diesels. The Northern Pacific dieselized their operations in the mid fifties at a time that their coal cost per ton was said to be fifty cents. That is very cheap coal but the diesels still made sense. I don't think anyone hated steam locomotives, but they were expensive to maintain.
In the end, steam was expensive to maintain and required many workers around the clock. Park a diesel, tie it down and it sat there and ran until someone came the next day. You could not do that with steam. They required boiler wash downs and tending all of the time. Roundhouses had workers on duty all of the time unlike today when diesels are just tied down and shut off. The railroads had roundhouses every 100 miles or so. Check how many service centers the diesels use today. It is sad all of those jobs were lost but this is a different era.
Southern Pacific's subsidiary Cotton Belt dipped its toe in the FT diesel pool and bought five four unit sets in 1944-45. The units were delivered with side number boxes like those seen on the Santa Fe FTs. These FTs were the first F units on the Espee System.
markpierce Fortunately, the ATSF "hogged" FT production so the SP acquired additional easily obtained and proven cab-ahead articulated steam locomotives from Baldwin. Mark