wrinnsbumboy wrote: "...the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. ...the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn't want to do it.... [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]..."The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don't want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980's (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes."...the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT's is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400's are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can't restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don't own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several years of their steam progarm's operating budget (again like others have said here) [yes, and make poor Steve work for a living]. But the real caveat was when he said that even if somebody were to donate a Big Boy to the Up Steam Program and they were willing to spend the money on restoring the BB they wouldn't do so because they realistically have no where to run it. [Lies, lies, lies.] ...This is the UP talking, the ones with the biggest and most advanced and capital intensive steam programs anywhere, and who also take a lot of pride in their steam heritage - [Nonsense. They only have two working engines, for goodness' sake; Steamtown has more and a complete shop AND a railroad besides.]." "... ounterbalancing may help somewhat to keep the loco from pounding itself into oblivion, but much less so the rail. The diesels have none of that, unless it has developed flatspots - and they don't run diesels for long with flatspots..."Diesels also frequently ripple the rail surface and burn the rail through all the way to the ties at times. The dynamic augment excuse is an old saw that the railroads who don't want to run steam always trot out. The ones that do run steam don't cry about. Have you ever head a credible report of 4449 damaging miles of the BNSF right of way? It's more nonsense. "...No way is a diesel or today's roller bearinged trains harder on rail than a steam locomotive. Period."And from what mechanical engineer specialized in rail did you get that information? "...the idea that with our 132 / 136 lb or more rail more common today making the infrastructure more capable than even what the Big Boys implies that the Big Boy ran on 100 or 110 lb rail. The BB's didn't. They ran/operated the BB's in a very limited area with heavy infrastructure in that area to built to accomodate them."The infrastructure is heavier today than it was on all UP mainlines due to the vast increase in traffic and weight of lading (read: unit coal trains). Moreover, there have been very significant advances in railhead metallurgy which will reduce the effect of dynamic augment wherever it might be more than negligible. UP [Steve Lee, actually, who is the only one who thinks about these things over there] is happy with the status quo and won't do anything new. He'll have to retire (hopefully very soon) before any progress gets made.The only real issue in restoring a Big Boy is how to convert it to oil. The UP never successfully accomplished that, but they probably didn't put enough engineering hours or testing time into the project as the end of steam was near. Coal firing such an engine makes no sense in 2006 due to the inconvenience and the fire risk along the right of way.I think we need to be much more honest and far more critical than we are about issues like this. Steve Lee and the UP have done some great things, but they're not the superheros so many people would like to think they are.Jim Wrinn's bumboy,Milwaukee, Iran
"...the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. ...the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn't want to do it.... [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]..."
The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don't want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980's (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes.
"...the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT's is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400's are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can't restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don't own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several years of their steam progarm's operating budget (again like others have said here) [yes, and make poor Steve work for a living]. But the real caveat was when he said that even if somebody were to donate a Big Boy to the Up Steam Program and they were willing to spend the money on restoring the BB they wouldn't do so because they realistically have no where to run it. [Lies, lies, lies.] ...This is the UP talking, the ones with the biggest and most advanced and capital intensive steam programs anywhere, and who also take a lot of pride in their steam heritage - [Nonsense. They only have two working engines, for goodness' sake; Steamtown has more and a complete shop AND a railroad besides.]."
"... ounterbalancing may help somewhat to keep the loco from pounding itself into oblivion, but much less so the rail. The diesels have none of that, unless it has developed flatspots - and they don't run diesels for long with flatspots..."
Diesels also frequently ripple the rail surface and burn the rail through all the way to the ties at times. The dynamic augment excuse is an old saw that the railroads who don't want to run steam always trot out. The ones that do run steam don't cry about. Have you ever head a credible report of 4449 damaging miles of the BNSF right of way? It's more nonsense.
"...No way is a diesel or today's roller bearinged trains harder on rail than a steam locomotive. Period."
And from what mechanical engineer specialized in rail did you get that information?
"...the idea that with our 132 / 136 lb or more rail more common today making the infrastructure more capable than even what the Big Boys implies that the Big Boy ran on 100 or 110 lb rail. The BB's didn't. They ran/operated the BB's in a very limited area with heavy infrastructure in that area to built to accomodate them."
The infrastructure is heavier today than it was on all UP mainlines due to the vast increase in traffic and weight of lading (read: unit coal trains). Moreover, there have been very significant advances in railhead metallurgy which will reduce the effect of dynamic augment wherever it might be more than negligible. UP [Steve Lee, actually, who is the only one who thinks about these things over there] is happy with the status quo and won't do anything new. He'll have to retire (hopefully very soon) before any progress gets made.
The only real issue in restoring a Big Boy is how to convert it to oil. The UP never successfully accomplished that, but they probably didn't put enough engineering hours or testing time into the project as the end of steam was near. Coal firing such an engine makes no sense in 2006 due to the inconvenience and the fire risk along the right of way.
I think we need to be much more honest and far more critical than we are about issues like this. Steve Lee and the UP have done some great things, but they're not the superheros so many people would like to think they are.
Jim Wrinn's bumboy,
Milwaukee, Iran
Typical ungrateful railfan.
Lets see you be in charge of running two steam engines on the largest railroad in the US. Do you have any idea how much money maitenence costs? Obviously not.
Steve Lee does a great job, as well as actually WORKING in other area's on UP.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
coborn35 wrote: wrinnsbumboy wrote: "...the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. ...the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn't want to do it.... [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]..."The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don't want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980's (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes."...the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT's is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400's are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can't restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don't own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several years of their steam progarm's operating budget (again like others have said here) [yes, and make poor Steve work for a living]. But the real caveat was when he said that even if somebody were to donate a Big Boy to the Up Steam Program and they were willing to spend the money on restoring the BB they wouldn't do so because they realistically have no where to run it. [Lies, lies, lies.] ...This is the UP talking, the ones with the biggest and most advanced and capital intensive steam programs anywhere, and who also take a lot of pride in their steam heritage - [Nonsense. They only have two working engines, for goodness' sake; Steamtown has more and a complete shop AND a railroad besides.]." "... ounterbalancing may help somewhat to keep the loco from pounding itself into oblivion, but much less so the rail. The diesels have none of that, unless it has developed flatspots - and they don't run diesels for long with flatspots..."Diesels also frequently ripple the rail surface and burn the rail through all the way to the ties at times. The dynamic augment excuse is an old saw that the railroads who don't want to run steam always trot out. The ones that do run steam don't cry about. Have you ever head a credible report of 4449 damaging miles of the BNSF right of way? It's more nonsense. "...No way is a diesel or today's roller bearinged trains harder on rail than a steam locomotive. Period."And from what mechanical engineer specialized in rail did you get that information? "...the idea that with our 132 / 136 lb or more rail more common today making the infrastructure more capable than even what the Big Boys implies that the Big Boy ran on 100 or 110 lb rail. The BB's didn't. They ran/operated the BB's in a very limited area with heavy infrastructure in that area to built to accomodate them."The infrastructure is heavier today than it was on all UP mainlines due to the vast increase in traffic and weight of lading (read: unit coal trains). Moreover, there have been very significant advances in railhead metallurgy which will reduce the effect of dynamic augment wherever it might be more than negligible. UP [Steve Lee, actually, who is the only one who thinks about these things over there] is happy with the status quo and won't do anything new. He'll have to retire (hopefully very soon) before any progress gets made.The only real issue in restoring a Big Boy is how to convert it to oil. The UP never successfully accomplished that, but they probably didn't put enough engineering hours or testing time into the project as the end of steam was near. Coal firing such an engine makes no sense in 2006 due to the inconvenience and the fire risk along the right of way.I think we need to be much more honest and far more critical than we are about issues like this. Steve Lee and the UP have done some great things, but they're not the superheros so many people would like to think they are.Jim Wrinn's bumboy,Milwaukee, Iran Typical ungrateful railfan.Lets see you be in charge of running two steam engines on the largest railroad in the US. Do you have any idea how much money maitenence costs? Obviously not. Steve Lee does a great job, as well as actually WORKING in other area's on UP.
He's not a railfan.
I don't pay any attention to hit-and-run artists like him that sign up for the forum just to clear their bowels and never return for a second posting. You know, the guys who sit at their keyboards and are experts on everything.
Bergie and/or Bob should terminate his account if for no other reason than he chose to make fun of Jim Wrinn in his screen name. This guy reeks with class.
I'm a late arrival on this thread but most of those who are taking UP and its employees to task for not restoring a Big Boy seem to forget that the Union Pacific Railroad is in the transportation business, not the entertainment business. While 844 and 3985 are great public relations devices for UP, UP is not under any obligation to operate these locomotives. A Big Boy was NOT a system locomotive when it was built in 1941 and, as others have pointed out, would be even more restricted in its operations today. There are an awful lot of locomotives and cars that are worth restoring and would have a much wider operating area than a Big Boy.
CSSHEGEWISCH wrote: ... While 844 and 3985 are great public relations devices for UP, UP is not under any obligation to operate these locomotives ...
... While 844 and 3985 are great public relations devices for UP, UP is not under any obligation to operate these locomotives ...
That's the way I see it, too. It seems that for some "railfans", no good deed shall go unpunished.
I just love this sort of thing, everyone comes out of their shell and preaches their own wisdom, I did read the 5.5 mile long train in a book too, but took it with a grain of salt, primarily, if everyone that contributes to this forum was to put in a dollar for each word they submit, and the time they take to submit it, you would soon have enough resources to get one back on the rails, buy a railroad and run it.
When you do, please send it down under so we can enjoy it, Queensland Railways restored a 134ton Garratt and ran it for a while, it was a real drawcard, but after an expensive rebuild it has been sidelined.
It may take a bit of adapting to run a Big Boy on QR's 3'6", but anythings possible, for the 15 year old, keep on wishing, you may just be the person to achieve the gaol sometime in the future, never lose sight of your dreams.
Teditor
P:S: I think I owe about $200.00 (US) and an hour for this post (two finger typing).
We should be seeing U.P. big Boy on the road again soon.
our President George Buish said WE WON this war In what less than 100 days after we started it.
Wowzers. Looking back, i just realized that that was probably Mark Hemphill!
Also, I have heard things about Steve Lee that put him down a lick in my book.
But anyways..........
UP made many generous donations of steam locomotives to museums and various parks when steam days ended....This isn't to mention the expense to lay a special track to get these monsters to the city parks.....It would have been a lot less hassle for them to tow these monsters to a scrap yard and get paid for their scrap value...
So, doe's the UP need the 844 and 3985 for public relations and good will...???????????????????
What's in it for the UP??????
Not to mention the expense of keeping these two steamers up to FRA standards,,,but also a complete lineup of passenger equipment to pull behind them...and then lets not mention the three E diesels.
I would like to thank the U P for their generous contributions to history preservation...
A grateful railfan
BDT
The bottom line is this
If you can run a Challenger (3985) on a particular piece of track, you can run a 4000 series engine as they are not all that much bigger.
A wye will allow you to turn them around just as easy as a 3900.
As far as weight goes the 4000's are a little heavier but not all that much.
The big issue is what do you feed that monster. Coal is a PITA to deal with and the voracious appetite those beasts had would cost a bloody fortune today.
I live near Portland Oregon and have helped out working on the 4449 and the fuel cost for that engine are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination and its nowhere near the size of a 4000
The cost to refurbish a 4000 would be high but the operational costs would be astronomical as the cheap fuel that was available in the 40's and 50's is a thing of the past.
UP did successfully convert one 4000 series engine to run oil. It was done during a time when a coal strike was a possibility and they wanted to explore the possibility of using oil.
It was successful but the strike was avoided and the overall cost of using oil did not offer any savings so the converted it back to coal.
Look at it this way, the 3985 was a coal burner and it is not all that much smaller than a 4000
The 3985 does fine on oil and so would a 4000.
The 4000's were designed to do a job and they did it well. The engine was designed to haul a 4700+ ton train over the wasatch mountains and it did that just sweet.
To rebuild one of these monsters to play with on a little excursion train is obsurd.
It would be fun but certainly not in any way shape or form cost effective
I dont believe a 4000 ever pulled a passenger train. I wont state for absolute positive because its possible one got yanked somewhere when they needed to move power to some other part of the railroad and deadheading was impractical.
We have to remember that many of these tools of the past simply cant be cost effectively brought back as play toys for our enjoyment.
The insurance alone will kill you.
To run the 4449 on a mainline excursion requires that all the passenger cars meet Amtrak specs and that there be $250 million worth of liability insurance in effect for the trip.
Most mainline railroads today are not going to let you take your restored steamer out and play with it on their road.
I will say this, IF and its a big IF. A 4000 series engine could be rebuilt, fired with oil and run on an excursion train on private trackage.
The only requirements would be the $$$$$$ to do it. A well monied old rail fan with nothing better to spend his/her $$$ on could certainly make it happen.
I would bet that the right amount of cash dangled in the faces of one of the museums that currently ownes a Big Boy could persuade them to sell it to you.
Now you have yourself a Big Boy, you need to get it home to your backyard railroad.
Hmmm you just happen to have a way to get a spur line hooked up to a major rail line close to you so you spend more money to have a large rail company move the monster for you.
No Big boy has run since the early 60's at the latest so any one you could possibly find is going to require some serious work to ready it for any kind of long distance move.
The main rods will have to be removed for the transit.
All the bearings on the axles are going to need service prior to the move. At minimum a good lube job to assure that they will survive the move after having sat idle for at least 40 years.
Once the sucker is on your home rail now what?? You are going to need at least a small crew to overhaul this monster.
At the bare minimum you will need a shed big enough to get the thing out of the weather.
A drop pit is an absolute must to be able to service the axle bearings.
The asbestos lagging has got to be removed and disposed of properly.
All the tubes and flues will need to be replaced as well as many other pipes and such.
The Boiler will have to be sonic tested to varify it integrity.
If the boiler is found to be sound then comes all the stay bolts which will no doubt have to be replaced.
The tubes and flues all replaced and then a hydro test.
Now you have the air pumpsl, no doubt after 40 years they will need work, or at least a tear down and a clean up.
The air valves and such will all have to be gone through.
Now that we have the basics looked over we are going to have to convert this giant to burn oil.
All the needed parts will have to be made special for the engine.
The tender will need to be modified from being a coal bin to being an oil tank.
The water tank may or may not be sound after all these years.
The engine alone has such an aray of equipment on it that I have not even mentioned including such items as wheels, bearings, brakes, air lines, electrical equipment, steam dynamo, the lubicricators, steam packing, piston and valve rings. OMG the list is as long as the locomotive.
Remember too that the parts you could need have not been made since the late 50's and I doubt you could find any. So any parts will have to be made from scratch.
What are you going to do if a main cylinder is in bad shape? you are going to have to set up a portable boring machine and bore the sucker out and then sleave it back to standard.
We have not even discussed the possibilities of problems with the frame or anything like that.
Any issues requiring that the boiler come off the frame is gonna really set you back. A large enough crane to pick the boiler off is not going to come cheap.
$1000's per hour and then a crew to rig it.
Oh my, the dream of a running Big boy is getting futher away isn't it??
Is the cab sound or will all the wood have to be replaced, what about gauges and valves and such?
Do all these still function or do we have to rebuild/replace these to??
This project has already soared into the area of the national debt and we have not even built a fire in it yet. I would venture a guess that to ready a 4000 to be able to run again would cost close to $1000,000.00 if not more and this would be with volunteer labor.
Possibly if you could secure one of the last 4000's to run that had been shopped just prior to retirment you might get by for less money but how much is anybodies guess though.
Steam locomotives dont do well just sitting around
I think it would be wonderful to see a 4000 thunder by pulling a train but the bottom line is it's not going to happen unless there was a real good reason and I dont see one coming.
To have the fine old steamers we have still running is a very special gift to us all from those who have busted their butts volunteering their time and effort to make it so.
Lets all dream about what might be, but keep in mind that some things will never be again
Chooch