After seeing Chris Comport's HO scale PRR Middle Division layout (featuring the Denholm Coal Warf and Lewistown) I find my mind drifting back toward doing the Middle Division and not any electrified portion. I'm so confused!!! There are so many neat sections of the Pennsy from which to choose.
Chris Comport's layout is on display at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It's essentially a railfan-type layout (no staging) with four trains drilling around the (4-track) main. Ample switching is possible in his renditions of Lewistown and Mifflin. Plus, there's a small engine terminal at Lewistown. That raises an interesting idea.
Can one build a layout where the main operation is the local freight and the mainline trains are essentially moving scenery? Would such a layout be satisfying?
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
My layout takes pretty much that approach, except the mainline trains don't necessarily move. I model Sacramento Northern, a short line, in a town where Southern Pacific was the big dog. Because they operated in close physical proximity, I am including a certain amount of SP trackage, but in many cases it is non-functional. Just south of my main yard is an SP-owned berm, with a set of old Athearn "Daylight" cars sitting on it:
It serves as a reminder that this was a town with many overlapping railroads, and also helps provide a visual barrier: if one is standing in the yard area, it's difficult to see over the berm and the train on it into the industrial area.
Providing a continuous-running loop for moving "scenery" isn't a new idea: folks like John Allen included short streetcar lines in their towns that were simple loops, to provide animation and action in the background. One could even work these trains into the operating scheme, through interchange, or at diamond crossings--whoop, stop that peddler freight so the Cannonball Lighting Express Special can run through the interlocking!
It seems like a nice compromise for those who want both switching and continuous running trains: keep the kids' (or visitors') attention while you're spotting boxcars.
Dave Vollmer wrote:Can one build a layout where the main operation is the local freight and the mainline trains are essentially moving scenery? Would such a layout be satisfying?
That's how mine is mapped out. The 'Main line' is only visible for a small portion to pass thru and deliver/pick up cars for a small local freight yard. Then the freight gets sent out to the small industries around the layout via smaller swithcing locomotives. ( SW1200's and a GP7 )
That way I can have a continuous running train while I work on the layout, or switch freight.
When I was working on my layout, I found it very gratifying to set the trains in motion and let them run. Mostly ignored them and they were like a radio--background noise. But at times I'd look up and watch them roll past.
If I was made of money and had three simultanous lives, I think I would design an N-scale around the walls of my office so that when I was relaxing--reading. watching TV, (not this forum because it is too exciting)-- I would have the trains running like others would have an aquarium.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I don't see why you couldn't do this. Though my view is that if it's scenery then it shouldn't interact with the local. If the mainline trains do drop offs and pick ups for the local/yard, then they are part of the operation and not scenery. If the local shares the mainline with them, then they are part of the operation. On the other hand, you could have it partway. Your four track main can have one track with trains that drop off/pick up or share with the local and the other three tracks don't. Also, when the mainline trains are scenery, they can be on a different level from the operational trains.
Like any other scenery you can fake mainline running as well. One example is a visible length of track where the trains runs forwards/backwards using automatic reversing units. This works well if the train looks okay running in both directions. If not, you could do it with two spring switches so the back up movement takes a hidden return path. Of course there is the time honored method of using a smaller scale in the background. I have never seen anyone do a larger scale in the foreground - a new frontier maybe?.
Enjoy
Paul
Paul...
That's an idea... Passenger trains will look fine running in both directions. So will most freights.
On potentially sticky wicket is that most of the westbound PRR passenger trains rain on the Middle Division in the late evening, while the eastbounds mostly ran in the early morning. There were exceptions, of course.
For the Pennsy, the kicker is the coal drag. Generally on the Middle Division, eastbounds were loaded and westbounds were empty.
Maybe, then, I could do coal operations while the other trains drill in loops. That way I'm operating only a small subset of the huge list of trains on the Middle Division.
Food for thought.
That is what I like to call a "soul searching" question. When ever I plan a layout, I will usually thing loooong and hard about what I want to accomplish with it. I am not going to sit here and say that that approach wouldn't work, but you got to really think. Do you like operating your trains more or do you like the construction aspect more? I am more of a builder than an operator, so I usually try to include as much detail and scenery that I can, even if it means that there are fewer switching and operating possibilities. But like I said, that is your call, can it be pulled off.........short answer, yes. The real question is if it would be something you would enjoy long term.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Dave, The operations of the Pennsy and New Haven have very distinct similarities. The New Haven had a four track electrified mainline from New York to New Haven. Except for locals and commuters, all trains ran through to Hartford/Springfield and/or Boston on the Shore Line. Both of these were double tracked and power was changed from electric to steam/diesel at New Haven.
Most freights, except for Hot shots, ended at the Cedar Hill classification yard for sorting as to destination and were sent out accordingy. Trains for the car floats at NYC and Maybrook across from Poughkeepsie were asembled in the Westbound departure yards and either equipped with electric or steam/diesel power depending on destination.
Does this sound familiar? Substitute New Haven for Harrisburg and the GG-1s for the EP-3s and EP-4s and the P5s for the EF-1s and Tuscan livery for the New Haven's various greens.
I plan to run symbol freights as "scenery" from staging yards at either ends of both the New York and Shore Line (Boston) mains. They will trundle on through the New Haven station as in the prototype. Others, will be replaced from the staging according to freight timetable.
All passenger trains will stop at New Haven for the engine change, and some will be split in two East bound to both Hartford/Springfield and Boston and reunited when Westbound. Head end cars, extra coaches and diners, etc. will also be added or removed at New Haven.
The Westbound freights from the Shoreline will be diverted into the same freight staging as the New York trains simulating the Cedar Hill yards. An alternative will be the Water Street yard adjacent to the New Haven station trackage.
Due to space limitations modeling Bridgeport and Stamford stations on the New York main is not an option so only the smaller stations will be represented ending at Rye, NY. MU locals will stop at all of them. Thus, all of the passenger trains will be express and functioning as "scenery" on the way to and from New Haven. The same will be true for the Shore Line.
Local freights will service the industrial sidings on both the New York main and the Shoreline giving me plenty of operational opportunities in addition to all of the activities at New Haven.
In your case, through freights and passenger trains could run from the hidden staging at Harrisburg to Paoli and take the Trenton cut off to hidden staging for the moving "scenery" aspect. Past Paoli, the Mainline would also go into hidden staging. You also have the opportunity to do the engine changes at Harrisburg as I do.
If I can model the New Haven Union station in HO as the center piece of activities, you could surely do the same thing with Harrisburg in N scale.
Good stuff, BigRusty! Much good fruit in that post.
Technically what you've described is the PRR's Philadelphia Division between Harrisburg and Philly... I'm more interested in the Middle Division from Enola to Altoona. That said, however, the same principals apply.
I have often considered some sort of continuous running with visible staging representing both Altoona and Enola yards, witha few scenic bits from each (like the Juniata Shops buildings on one end and the Enola electric motor pit on the other). Neil Schorr did something similar with his 3-rail PRR.
Jerry Britton is doing essectially what you mentioned in N. His layout is centered on Harrisburg and its passenger ops (electric to diesel change). He's also including a portion of the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions on 3 decks (more than I can stomach, that's for sure!).
In the decades that I've been reading the model railroad press, I can't even begin to count the number of track plans and layout articles have featured mainline trains, and entire Class I connections, as scenery, usually with moving trains, frequently without (dummy crossing and an interchange track.) My own 'half a garage' layout that enlarged into my present design was originally intended to concentrate on my freelance short line, with the JNR present only at the interchange point.
If the "scenic" mainline is a loop, it is possible to have a train orbit the main while the switcher or branchline train does its operating thing. Even if it isnt operational, it helps to justify the existence of that which is modeled in detail.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Ditto....I think. I have a central pit, a folded loop outer main, but the yard is accessed from this outer loop as it swings past either end of the yard. So, I can park a local passenger train at the station, do switching right under my nose, including the interchange bridge that you may remember crosses my operating pit diagonally (a reversing loop, really), and still have my J1 (genuflect, everyone..) thunder past with a long coal drag doing circuits. Gosh, she's purdy.
(sigh)
I'm planning on having the Mainline - just the track and roadbed - as scenery on my layout.
KL
A continuous-running loop makes switching a bunch more fun on my 5x12 foot HO layout. Actually, I have 2 such loops - on above ground for freight or passenger operations, and one below for the subways. This way, the operator has to be constantly aware of traffic on the main line, and when the switchers can "take the main" for a short run to a siding or back to the yard. I also sometimes run a trolley on both loops, interleaving it with trains so as not to interrupt the through traffic.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Dear Dave,
One My Layout I have "two mainlines". The outer one (my layout being around the walls) is Canadian Pacific. The Inside loop is Canadian Shield (my made up line, but the star of the show) Now I only have me myself to operate with, so my layout was ENTIRELY planned with Canadian Pacific running by on their main, weaving in and out of tunnels and mountains, while Canadian Shield is THE railroad servicing the two cities and town en route.
If my friends come over, they can have the Canadian Pacific drop off cars at an interchange track. So then it can become part of the timetable you'd say.
What I wanted to accomplish is having CP all brand new diesels in its glory in 1959, and Canadian Shield (or CASH as the reporting marks actually are, hehe) "that poorer, struggling with used FT's and old and tired steam.
So Dave-you and I...we speakinz ze same train-languige!
The layout here is designed with three mains, for combinations of "rolling scenery", switching, pickup/spotting, and access to and from hidden staging. At any given time, at least two trains are expected to be "rolling scenery", while operations take place along the middle, third, mainline, interacting dynamically over time with respect to the rolling scenery consists.
This is the general trackplan, (minor modifications not shown, due to a PC crash and un-availability):
At the center, there's a two level folded dogbone mainline, with five percent grade, serving the town (and interchange) of Silverton (center), and the Red Mountain mining district (center right). Due to the steep grade, and 15" curves on the Silverton spurs, this track is limited to smaller locomotives, 2-8-0s, 4-6-0s, geared, and in modern diesel mode, 4 axle power.
Just outside that, there's an oval mainline that serves the Durango yard and locomotive service area/MOW plant, (far left) ,which connects to the Silverton line via the interchange at front center.
At the outer edge, there's an oval mainline connecting hidden staging at the rear of the layout to the middle oval main.
Much of the trackwork is hidden under terrain, with purple ridges and subsidiary ridgelinesshown in this image being rugged mountains, and blue features being waterways and drainages:
Most operations will be combinations of the following basic maneuvers:
1. Building and re-organizing trains at the Durango yard.
2. Breaking down trains delivered to Silverton into 2-4 car consists for delivery to Red Mountain.
3. Numerous short consist deliveries to Red Mountain, and pickups from the mines there, mostly coal for steam power, silver ore headed down to the Durango smelters, and groceries/lumber/mining equipment.
4. Assembly of longer consists at Silverton, after delivery from Red Mountain, for transport to Durango, and points east, represented by hidden staging.
5. Durango-Silverton-Red Mountain passenger service, heavier than you'd expect since this was a high volume tourist attraction as well as a booming mine district.
6. Staging entry and exit, numerous trains, some for operations at one or more of the three towns, others simlpy for background variation.
In comparing the two images, you can there is room for 4 hidden staged long trains (rear staging areas, plan since modified from version shown), 4 hidden staged short consists, 3 operating trains on mainlines, and 3 trains under construction at the three main operations centers, for a total of 14 trains, maximum, at any given time on the layout.
Obviously, at this saturation level, three trains could be running and switching could take place, but movements from switching areas to mainlines to staging would be problematic, so more likely would be 10-12 trains on the layout at a time, variously moving from staging to mainlines to yards, etc.
However, I recently noticed that an additional level for staging is possible across the rear of the layout, accessed from the upper level of the folded dogbone, which would allow hidden staging for 4 to 8 additional short consists, bringing the realistic total to 12 to 16 trains available for operations, on short notice, at any given time.
Under normal circumstances, I'd expect to see an operating session begin by getting 2 trains moving, one on the outer oval main, and one on the inner folded dogbone, while switching and building a third train at any of the three yard/spur areas. At this point, any of the three could access, or share access to, the inner oval main (which is the operating "core" of the layout, the interchange that connects towns, staging, and both other mains) to complete the next evolution of the operating session.
On completion of that first evolution, two different trains would be in continuous operation on the outer and inner main, (temporarily "rolling scenery"), while the next switching/train building evolution begins. Effectively then, the layout schematic consists of three operating/switching areas, three mainlines, and 16 hidden staging tracks all matrixed together, with the inner loop mainline mostly used for transiting from the outer loop to the folded dogbone, and access to Durango operations.
Currently, only the inner dogbone (mainline C, Silverton and Red Mountain),exisits in reality, but the space is allocated for the expansion, all components are cut and stacked for assembly of the three expansion benches, a 3'x4' extension for the Durango yard at left, a 2'x4' extension for the right end, and a 1'x14' shelf across the back of the layout, and the track has all been acquired and is ready to lay.
Scenery wise, the right extension and right half of the rear staging shelf will be all rugged mountains, with lesser and newer mining and prospecting operations taking place, not served by rail lines. The front and middle of the left extension will necessarily be the Durango area, on low, rolling hills, leading up to a larger mountain covering the back half and left end of the staging shelf.
Recent efforts have been to complete scenery on the existing layout since reach-ability will suffer after the expansion, but that phase is rapidly reaching a point of diminishing returns. In theory, I could assemble the new benchwork and begin attaching it as early as an hour from now. More likely, the last odds and ends towards scenery completion on the existing section will continue for a day or two, and with the kids visiting this weekend, expansion will begin early next week.
I normally don't get into industrial switch and would rather just watch my trains run.
However, I did design my layout so that I can have two trains running unattended on the main line, while I'm switching a local on the branch. The only time the local interacts with the main is when it crosses from Lampson Yard to the branch and back again.
EDIT - I changed the trackplan to a more readable version.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Dave Vollmer wrote: After seeing Chris Comport's HO scale PRR Middle Division layout (featuring the Denholm Coal Warf and Lewistown) I find my mind drifting back toward doing the Middle Division and not any electrified portion. I'm so confused!!! There are so many neat sections of the Pennsy from which to choose.Chris Comport's layout is on display at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It's essentially a railfan-type layout (no staging) with four trains drilling around the (4-track) main. Ample switching is possible in his renditions of Lewistown and Mifflin. Plus, there's a small engine terminal at Lewistown. That raises an interesting idea.Can one build a layout where the main operation is the local freight and the mainline trains are essentially moving scenery? Would such a layout be satisfying?
Dave,That isn't exactly a new thought seeing our layouts are "stages" and our trains the "actors" as per Frank Ellison.Let's take his thought one step farther..We can choose who we what to be in the "starring" role and who are the supporting actors and extras.
The local will be the "star" and the main line trains are the "supporting actors." See what I am saying? While our local is the "star" it will need to take siding to allow the "supporting actors" to do their part in the "play".
So,yeah it can be done and it may be feasible as well as far as operations.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Check out John Bowling's Louisville & Nashville in the August MR. Three independent loops: the first is a way freight operation playground - several towns, lots of switching. The other two appear as a double track main line with little switching, but with access the main yard and engine terminal.
The article doesn't describe operations in detail, but obviously the point-to-point on the first loop runs against the backdrop of through freight and passenger traffic rumbling along the high iron - nice scenery! I assume John sees it all as L&N, were it mine, I'd probably think of the double main as a class 1 RR with the point-to-point as an connecting independent branch line.
I've noodled this concept a bit, but never had the space to do it justice; nice to see one in print.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Can one build a layout where the main operation is the local freight and the mainline trains are essentially moving scenery?
This is the best description I've seen for what I was trying to accomplish with the small table-top/portable layout I was trying to accomplish...and basically the way the Wabash/NW opperated in my small town growing up. Mainline traffic moving through the scene with a local switcher servicing the small town customers on scene, and going off scene to pick-up/drop-off.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Would such a layout be satisfying?
That it wouldn't had been my paralising fear <shrug>
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."