Reading many posts about DCC and still havn't read the easiset or cheapest way to DCC with radio. The first question I have: Most say to go with a starter set, but if you want radio wouldn't you wind up with some unused parts after upgrading to radio from a starter set?
From what I read Digitrak radio has to be plugged into a terminal to aquire the loco. I think I have read that NCE will aquire the loco by radio without plugging in. If this is true, will NCE handle consists by radio?
Sorry to add another post to the DCC mishmash but You guys are the greatest for answers.
UPPD Union Pacific Port Doom Branch
cliffsrr
If I wanted to convert my Chief from Digitrax to radio, all I would need is a panel with a antenna that goes into the loconet and a radio DT400 throttle.
Once I have that the Radio panel goes into loconet and the throttle gets turned on and that should be the end of the installation exercise. No fooling with radio frequencies or any of that foo foo.
And no worries about taking over a neighbor's railroad a few miles over yonder either. The range is pretty much confined to your home.
Cheap? Not really, but I work around it by saving unspent hobby money each month.. little by little..
cliffsrr wrote: Reading many posts about DCC and still havn't read the easiset or cheapest way to DCC with radio. The first question I have: Most say to go with a starter set, but if you want radio wouldn't you wind up with some unused parts after upgrading to radio from a starter set?
It depends on the brand and what you start out with. Take for example the Digitrax starter set the Zephyr. First of all it is a console based command station/booster/throttle so in and unto itself adding radio does not impact the console as you are not going to walk around with it. However, all you need to do to add radio is purchase a radio equipped throttle like a UT4r and the UR91 radio receiver. Plug the UR91 into the loconet connector of the Zephyr and you have a walk around radio throttle working with the static command station/booster. So nothing is unused.
If you purchased the Digitrax Chief without radio, you can send your throttle off with $50 to get it converted to radio and then add the UR91. Again nothing wasted.
cliffsrr wrote: From what I read Digitrak radio has to be plugged into a terminal to aquire the loco. I think I have read that NCE will aquire the loco by radio without plugging in. If this is true, will NCE handle consists by radio?
Correct, the current Digitrax radio requires plugging in to acquire a loco. If you have the DT400r throttle it can acquire and run 2 locos or consists at once. NCE does not have to be plugged in. Digitrax radio systems will typically cost less than an NCE so you have to decide if the extra cost is worth the removal of the plug-in requirement. In other words, the cheapest radio solution is not the easiest radio solution. Rumor has it that Digitrax is about to release a new radio solution. I would not hold my breath waiting for it mind you!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I have a Digitrax Chief (radio). With Digitrax you can convert to radio by purchasing one radio receiver UP-91 which connects to your loconet; and you will need radio throttles. Go with the DT-4r, you don't need to spend money for a DT-400r. I have had my radio chief for several years. I purchased some DT100 and DT300 throttles on ebay and sent them to Digitrax to convert to radio. They no longer convert these throttles but will upgrad a DT-400 or DT-4. The one problem with Digitrax is that you must plug your radio throttle into the Loconet to aquire your locomotive. Then you can unplug and you are radio control. Eventhough I now have all radio throttles, yard crews could continue to use teatherd throttles without a problem. All in all, I believe that Digitrax is agood way to go if you are not sure about radio, because the upgrade is inexpensive and the rest of your Digitrax equipment is still good.
I'm sure others will have a different opinion about Digitrax but I have owned and operated my radio Digitrax equipment for more than six years and I am a satisfied customer.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Cliff,
You are correct in that the Digitrax radio system is a one-way communication system. As such the system does not communicate back to the throttle. You must plug into a throttle panel if you want to acquire a locomotive, create a consist, break a consist or doing any kind of programming - loco, stationary decoder etc or to program on the main or use the programming track.
The NCE radio is full two way or duplex system. Basically, anything you can do while tethered and plugged in can be done wireless. This includes acquiring a loco, consisting, programing etc. They do recommend being tethered while using the programming track.
With either system it can be upgraded to wireless with the purchase ofthe proper components. Throttles can be upgraded to wireless. NCE used to offer a DIY upgrade kit but has since stopped offering it. They now ask to have the throttle mail to them for the upgrade. From what I understand turnout is very short.
The Digitrax system has a slightly greater range than the NCE. This primarily due to FCC regulations that limit the power/range of 2 way radio systems like they use. Battery consumption can also be an issue. Digitrax is notorious for draining batteries becuase do will not go into sleep mode to save battery power. Also, contrary to what others have/will say, if there is an extended short on the layout with wireless Digitrax you will need to plug in and re-acquire your engine.
MRC has just announced their wireless system. See the ad on the current MR back cover. Since it is brand it I don't know of any reviews or other info on it.
jktrains.
While it may seem amusing or strange to those that have not tried it, I use the cordless phone with my Lenz.
The cordless phone has no range problems, the adapter may be hidden anywhere as the signal goes through walls, etc.
I use the cordless phone more than my Lenz 90 or 100 cabs.
The keys on the phone are assigned in a very logical manner and it easily goes from one loco to another by simply pressing the #, then the loco address followed by an *.
Another great thing is the cost. The adapter cost about $60.00 and the cordless phone can be anything from $0.00 after rebates to maybe $25.00. This is a total cost of under $90. for a radio cab that works perfectly!
caellis wrote:While it may seem amusing or strange to those that have not tried it, I use the cordless phone with my Lenz.The cordless phone has no range problems, the adapter may be hidden anywhere as the signal goes through walls, etc.I use the cordless phone more than my Lenz 90 or 100 cabs.The keys on the phone are assigned in a very logical manner and it easily goes from one loco to another by simply pressing the #, then the loco address followed by an *.Another great thing is the cost. The adapter cost about $60.00 and the cordless phone can be anything from $0.00 after rebates to maybe $25.00. This is a total cost of under $90. for a radio cab that works perfectly!
Thats sounds like a great idea. What keys on the phone control speed/direction?
jktrains wrote:snip Also, contrary to what others have/will say, if there is an extended short on the layout with wireless Digitrax you will need to plug in and re-acquire your engine.jktrains.
Also, contrary to what others have/will say, if there is an extended short on the layout with wireless Digitrax you will need to plug in and re-acquire your engine.
'don't know where you heard or saw that, but I have five years of experience with two sizeable Digitrax-equipped layouts that directly contradicts that claim. We wouldn't have put up with that.
If someone's having a problem where a short requires that they plug a throttle back in to reacquire their train, then there's a defective command station involved.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I have an NCE radio system. One difference I noted when using a Digitrax radio system was the tendency of Digitrax not to 'send' the instruction until after you made the adjustment. If I was making a long slow decceleration the train tended not to start deccelerating until I stopped turning the knob. With the NCE system when you turn the knob or push the button the speed change starts as soon as the control movement begins.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
cliffsrr wrote:The first question I have: Most say to go with a starter set, but if you want radio wouldn't you wind up with some unused parts after upgrading to radio from a starter set?
To upgrade my Lenz (this would apply to any other DCC system that uses Express Net), I simply purchased the appropriate CVP base station. I plugged it into the throttle bus. Then I purchased a CVP wireless throttle, turned it on, called up the locomotive number, and ran the train. Can't ask for a much simpler upgrade or operation.
jktrains,I'm sorry, but what you wrote is partially incorrect.
It is true that the current Digitrax radio is simplex (or one way), and that one must plug in to acquire a loco, make an MU, and programming on the programming track (IOW, Page Mode, Direct Mode, or Physical Register Mode).
However, you are wrong WRT programming on the main (Ops Mode). I have done this both on my club's Digitrax Chief system and my home Zephyr layout with my DT400R radio throttle. I can assure you that Ops Mode programming via Digitrax radio is not only a possibility, but a reality. I have changed the momentum CV's on the fly with my Atlas H24-66 many, many times.
I believe you are quasi-incorrect when it comes to breaking MU's and deselecting locos with Digitrax radio throttles. From the factory, the default setting does forbid this. However, I believe that one can program the base station's OPSW variables to allow breaking MU's and deselecting locos via tetherless throttle.
As for stationary decoders, it depends on which ones you have (DS44, DS54, DS64, etc.) and what you're trying to do. If it's just the addresses, you don't have to be plugged in (for example, after you hit the "program button" on the DS54, all you do is send a "switch" command and it sets the addresses for the stationary decoder). For something more complicated, I believe you have to be plugged in (but it's been a while for me with that).
BTW, the "Digitrax system has a slightly greater range than the NCE"? That's putting it mildly. My club with it's Digitrax radio system uses one UR91 radio receiver for a layout that's currently 60' x 32', and folks have been known to operate decoder sound effects by radio from the bathrooms, from the meeting room, or from the back shop (all through walls and doors). IIRC, the Digitrax radio is good for a 200' range. NCE, correct me if I'm wrong, has to have many receivers to get that kind of coverage, and doesn't like walls at all.
And Digitrax battery life? Not a problem if you always remove the battery after use (and they do have a power saver mode...it's just not that good). One can always use recharable 9v batteries for Digitrax throttles to save money (especially with the NiMH), but alkaline batteries work well, too. On my home layout, I operate 2 hours a week with my DT400R, and I can go 6 months easily on one Duracell battery. At my club, going 16 hours constantly (in two 8 hour shifts) during a weekend show with one battery is no big deal. FYI, to improve battery life, turn off the throttle's back light for the LCD screen in radio mode.
As for your claim that you must plug in after every extended short circuit...you are dead wrong. Heck, I was running about 2 hours ago on my UR91-equipped Zephyr layout (with no circuit breakers but the one on the Z), and my father derailed a couple times that caused a short. At no time did I have to re-aquire my loco. I've seen it at my club over and over again for the last 6 or 7 years. Short circuits do not cause anyone to loose control over an address. There are many other reasons why it happens, but track shorts aren't one of them.
FYI, when I talked with Norm of Digitrax at the Springfield (MA) Show this past January, he told me that A.J. Ireland is working on the Digitrax Duplex radio at that time, and was just trying to get the range increased to typical Digitrax radio range. Norm said that while he couldn't promise anything, he said he'd be surprised if the Duplex radio wasn't out by the end of this year.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
My experience in using a Digitrax radio system leads to make the statement about losing control after an extended short. I've had it happen! There has been a short on a modular layout I've operatred on and I have had to plugged back in a re-acquire the loco I was running. I've had it happen more than once with different command stations. What the cause is ???, but I've had it happen more than once.
If there's an OPSW that can be changed to allow for wireless programming on the main then the people I've operated with don't know about it. They've always told me it couldn't be done. Can you change other CVs beside momentum? Can you change long or short address? If you can do wireless programming on the main shouldn't you be able to change the CVs for consisting while wireless and do wireless consisting? or headlight functions? Afterall, consisting is just a matter of programming specific CVs just as setting momentum is simply programming CV4 and CV5. If you can do one you should be able to them all.
The battery life issue has to do with the fact that the Digitrax throttles don't go into a sleep mode and turn off. They will last longer if you take them out at the end of a session, true, but then so will the batteries in my flashlight if I forget turn off the switch but remove them instead.
It is an undisputed fact that the range on NCE is less than Digitrax. This is a function of the power limitations placed on it by the FCC because it is a two way communication device. Its range is affected by the location of the antenna and obstructions within the room/area. It will be interesting to see the range of the new MRC wireless and the 2 way Digitrax system when it is introduced.
This has been my own personal experience from using Digitrax wireless.
I use the NCE ProCab radio system and the only time I have ever had to plug in was during initial setup to configure the base station. You do not have to plug in to program anything after that.
Range should not be a concern as long as you are within viewing distance of your layout. As an experiment with my ProCab when I first installed it, I was able to run trains on a home layout from two rooms away, even through the walls.
The only other wireless system I have any experience with is the EasyDCC radio throttle on an HO layout and the CVP AirWire 900 used outdoors for G-scale trains. The range of the AirWire 900 is over 100 feet outdoors. I don't know what the range of the EasyDCC system would be indoors.
JPM335 wrote: caellis wrote: While it may seem amusing or strange to those that have not tried it, I use the cordless phone with my Lenz.The cordless phone has no range problems, the adapter may be hidden anywhere as the signal goes through walls, etc.I use the cordless phone more than my Lenz 90 or 100 cabs.The keys on the phone are assigned in a very logical manner and it easily goes from one loco to another by simply pressing the #, then the loco address followed by an *.Another great thing is the cost. The adapter cost about $60.00 and the cordless phone can be anything from $0.00 after rebates to maybe $25.00. This is a total cost of under $90. for a radio cab that works perfectly!Thats sounds like a great idea. What keys on the phone control speed/direction?
caellis wrote: While it may seem amusing or strange to those that have not tried it, I use the cordless phone with my Lenz.The cordless phone has no range problems, the adapter may be hidden anywhere as the signal goes through walls, etc.I use the cordless phone more than my Lenz 90 or 100 cabs.The keys on the phone are assigned in a very logical manner and it easily goes from one loco to another by simply pressing the #, then the loco address followed by an *.Another great thing is the cost. The adapter cost about $60.00 and the cordless phone can be anything from $0.00 after rebates to maybe $25.00. This is a total cost of under $90. for a radio cab that works perfectly!
I have the same system works really good, here's the functions off the Lenz website
The keys work as follows
3 - speed up one speed step with each press6 - speed up multiple speed step with each press9 - speed up quickly with each press
1 - slow down one speed step with each press4 -slow down multiple speed step with each press7- slow down quickly with each press
2 - forward5 - stop8 - reverse
0 - emergency stop (can be customized)
# and * are used for special functions. For example # 6 1 1 * assigns locomotive 611 to the handheld.
* 7 activates function 7
Ken.
jktrains,The only way a track short can cause a lack of control is when:1). CV29 on a decoder is set for "analog mode on" (CV29=38, for example). What can happen here is that when the short occurs, the voltage crashes to zero. And when the short is removed, the voltage spikes back up. A decoder can interpret this crash and spike as a variable analog voltage input, and will route all track power direct to the motor. This results in a "runaway" at full speed. To stop this from happening, program all CV29's to either "34" (4-digit) or "02" (2-digit). This has nothing to do with the Digitrax radio system.
2). A track short can cause locos to loose their addresses, or even cause them to reset back to factory defaults. Again, this has nothing to do with the Digitrax radio system.
There are several other ways to loose control of a loco with a Digitrax system. Address time-outs are a big one. There's ones I still don't understand (tho' consistant dumping of the slot memory is a big help). Simply having a short, while tetherless, is not enough to cause a loss of control. And I'm not some occasional user of Digitrax products. I'm running on three different Digitrax layouts every week (my friend's, my club's, and my own). My club layout has 60 members, and we have people who have been model railroading since WWII and those who didn't know what HO scale was 2 months ago. We have guys who are IT specialists and those who probably can't spell DCC, let alone understand it. But in my years of constant Digitrax use (at least 4 days a week), I have never come to the conclusion that shorts cause a loss of control with a Digitrax radio as there is no direct, repeatable evidence to support such a claim.
IMHO, in your situation, you had another reason why you lost control, it just coincedentally happened when you had a short.
BTW, who said there was an OPSW to allow programming on the main (Ops Mode)? There isn't one, as it's built into the throttle. It's like asking if there's an OPSW to allow locos to reverse direction.
If anyone is telling you that you can't program on the mainline with Ops Mode wirelessly with a DT400R, then they are either flat-out lying to you or just ignorant. You do have to have the loco already selected (but then that's a given) and when your DT400R throttle is unplugged, hit the "PROG" button and it will automatically go to "Ops Mode" allowing full CV access to anything you want to that one address. I have changed momentum effects, lighting effects, sound effects, heck, even addresses. All in Ops Mode by wireless radio throttle.
As for why Digitrax' "Universal" consisting needs to be plugged in to MU, I assume there's some need for the system to talk to the throttle. But it's true that you could at the very least do "Basic" consisting with "Ops Mode".
For battery use, there are some out there that have put in a mini switch to turn off the battery. You can also leave your Digitrax throttles plugged into a powered Loconet jack and save the battery that way, too, as Digitrax throttle panels have an aux. power input for just that reason. Or one can just pull the battery out and reverse the polarity of the battery. After the first couple times you kill a battery, you tend to remember not to let them die like that. Sort of like leaving your car headlights on...one doesn't usually do that too often after the first time.
I use rechargeable 9v batteries, so running the batteries down is not a problem. I can ususally go several operating sessions before this becomes a problem.
I have a decent sized basement (1800 sq ft) and have one Digitrax Radio receiver for the whole layout with no reception problems.
I have programmed locomotives with a DT-100, DT-300 and a DT-400. They work fine but I now use DecoderPro which is free from the JMRI web site. If a decoder starts acting weird I put it on the the programming tack and use Decoder Pro to quickly reprogram all of CVs in the decoder. Decoder Pro saves the CV settings in the computer. while I still use the above throttles, visitors like the new UT-4 as it is very simple to use. All future throttles will be UT-4.
NZRMAC answered this question correctly. And looking at the key numbers in his response does not fully show the logic in their assignments.
If you look at a phone number pad and also look at the key assignments in his response the logic becomes apparent and is very easy to use with out looking at the phone after some practice.
I also used a toothpick with model paint and drew arrows and + or - signs next to the keys.
I use the phone cab more than my other cabs. You may use multiple adapters and therefore have more then one radio cabs.
The reason Lenz went this route is to satisfy their world wide customer base. As each country has its' own cordless phone frequencies and regulations. So Lenz avoided having to get a radio cab approved for the many countries in which they market their products. And as a bonus the cost for going radio for the customer is very attractive.
NCE does just about everything by radio without plugging in. Works great.