Is there anything special you all do when painting Details West parts? Since they are bare metal, should I clean and prime them before I paint them or just paint them as they are? I don't want to lose crucial detailing by overpainting them, if I don't have to.
Thanks for the help...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Something to think about.
What type of paint are you planning on using on the bare metal parts?
If you use water based paint, will it cause the metal parts to rust?
Doug,
Thanks for the reply. I was planning on using aerosol paint to paint the parts. So the answer would be enamel. Would that still happen with acrylic paints on cast metal parts?
Tom, you have two practical choices as I see it...three if you consider a quick covering burst of Tremclad a good start ( I would FWIW). You can use acetone (no need to go into the nause here, but the pros will tell you that there is nothing better for prepping a metal surface), or use good old TSP. Rinse, air dry, and spray with ...Tremclad...rustoleum...any white primer in a spray can... and then resort to the artist's acrylics.
I have read recently that using a dark wash (India Ink) as a final coat helps to get rid of any shine and makes the figures look real.
-Crandell
Thanks for the comments so far. I forgot to clarify. These will be parts added to a Norfolk Southern GP38-2. The final paint coat will be black.
You don't have to do anything special, especially if you're going to paint with enamel. It's always a good idea to prime a model, one, it's easier to inspect the model for imperfections before applying the final color coat, two, it will give you an even undercoat making it easier to cover dissimilar colored parts and surfaces.
So, after applying all your parts and the model is ready to be painted, just wash the whole model with some detergent and rinse very thoroughly, let dry and then paint it.
Details West parts are "white metal" alloys and do not rust. They can corrode if left unprotected for several years, actually the newer alloys are much less susceptable to this. The only metals that would actually rust would be steel or iron and I'm not aware of any detail parts made of those metals. Most parts are cast in white metals, brass, resins and other assorted plastics.
As far as acrylic paints go, the same methodology applies for all the same reasons. The water in acrylics is not going cause anything to rust including steel or iron, it will have evaporated in 5 to 10 minutes, it would take prolonged continuous exposure to moisture for ferrous metals to even begin to rust.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Sounds like your mostly talking about plows and pilots. These cast metal only need the flashing cleaned and if painting w/ solvent, just paint. Tamiya will paint directly on, but I would prime first for any acylics.
You may get a very heavy coat w/ a spray can. This could hide some detail. Most small metal detail parts are better brush painted. Floequil and ScalecoatII seem to have the best coverage /coat and are the most durable on metal. The fine pigment of Floequil especially airbrushed, gives the best results in my opinion w/o hiding or diminishing any of the fine detail. If I am painting Smokey Valley stanchions, a few plows etc, I will airbrush the parts. Otherwise most times the part can be glued in place and just brush paint. Any seam at the attaching area will be filled with paint and look better if the fit isn't that tight.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
The basic challange with painting metal anything (die cast or brass locomotives, automobiles, what ever) is to get the paint to stick and not peel or chip off. Metal is smooth and slippery and paint has a lot of trouble staying attached to it.
First secret of painting metal is surface preparation. Any trace of oil or grease, from fingerprints, lubrication, kitchen cooking, or dirty rags, or just bad karma kills what ever chance the paint has of grabbing onto the metal. With any tiny trace of oil on the surface, the paint is bonding to the oil film and not the metal, and it will peel in time. Use alcohol, hot soapy water, clean rags, a tooth brush, 409 cleaner and/or Goo Gone to get the surfaces squeaky clean. Use what ever works. Once clean don't touch the model with your bare hands; use gloves. A trip thru the kitchen dishwasher is good, the water is hotter than your hands can stand and the detergent is aggressive.
Etch the surface. A mild acid such as supermarket vinegar will roughen the surface and give some tooth for the paint to bond to. For best results, first clean surface so the etchant doesn't get repelled by oil, etch for an hour or so, and then clean again to account for the inevitable fingerprints. Sometimes I do a short cut by omitting the first cleaning and going right to etch. Be religious about the last clean and dry. Any dirty spots that slip thru can ruin the paint job.
Second secret. Always use a solvent based real metal primer for the first coat over the clean metal. Best are the spray cans of auto primer from the auto parts store. They are sold to busy auto body men and mechanics who want the best stick-to-metal performance they can get. Second best is Floquil Zinc Chromate Primer. Primer has special chemistry to enhance the stick features and a very opaque pigment with the power to cover anything, wood grain, bright solder joints, CA adhesive, anything and the primer covers it. Primer dries dead flat and offers the best surface for the finish coats to stick to. Beware of "primers" offered by hobby paint companies, they may just have the distinctive color of primers without the special paint chemistry. I've used the Floquil zinc chromate primer on metal handrails with good luck, but I am suspicious of any other hobby paint primers. I great confidence in the auto primers. I have no confidence in any water based metal primer. The auto primers are available in red, dark gray, and light gray. Pick a primer color to help the finish coat cover better. Red primer under red, dark gray primer under blues and greens, light gray under yellow and white.
Once you have a good coat of primer on the metal model, then any good finish coat, solvent based or water based will work just about the same way it does on plastic. For myself, I often quit with the primer coat. Dark grey auto primer is just right for steam locomotives and red auto primer makes a fine box car red.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Thanks, David, for the excellent explanation on prep work. Thanks everyone for your suggestions, as well.
A couple of other questions. I'd like to match the black of the painted detailed parts (horn, plow, hosing, etc.) to the shell of my Proto 2000 Norfolk Southern GP38-2. Can anyone suggest a good match for that particular black - e.g. Engine Black? Floquil or Pollyscale doesn't happen to make an "NS Black" do they?
Lastly, after I prime the detailed parts, can I just hand brush the black paint on instead of spraying it? I've had pretty good success hand painting other things. I just don't want a fairly new locomotvie look like it has 40 years worth of umpteen layers of paint and I end up loosing some subtle detailing.
Thanks.
Black ought to be no trouble to match, or at least a lot easier than a pastel like the old New York Central green. I would expect anyone's engine black to be a good match for the Proto2k shell. Especially as the eye is insenitive to small changes of hue. The eye tends to see objects with small color changes as all one color. They was a time we selected and had custom mixed a base color and an accent color for painting a stairway. After laboriously applying the accent color, we found we couldn't see it. The vast expanse of wall painted in the base color overwhelmed the accent color and the stairway looked all one color. I'd expect the same effect to make small changes in hue and luster between your painted detail parts and the factory painted shell go away.
Brush painting works fine. I usually brush paint the handrails and stanchions on GP diesels and they look good, the brushmarks level out. I usually do some masking to guard against slips of the hand.
I liked David Starr's detailed description of how to prepare and prime the metal for painting.
But now I'd like to add a twist to this thread
I recently dug out some old Hobbytown kits which are all cast metal frames, parts and body shells. Over the many years aging carefully in my "cellar" they have become quite oxidized. I'm not sure what the metal alloys used are but I think they are some alloy of zinc and tin. We used to call it "pot metal" in days gone by.
In any event, I am wondering if I need to do any additional prep to remove the oxidization. Perhaps, David's method of "etching" in vinegar will suffice. Of maybe I need to take the Dremel with a wire brush to all the parts!
Does anyone know how to de-oxidize the metal?
My other question involves using automotive primer. Years ago I read that the main reason for using a special model paint, such as Floquil, was that the physical size of the pigments were tiny so as not to cover any detail. Wouldn't an automotive paint use much heavier pigment particles therefore hiding the detail?
Thanks!
Charlie
Hmm, Hobbytown of Boston. Used to be the absolute top grade of diesel locomotive drives. Sadly I never had the money to indulge in the best. They had a fantastic rep, and was one to come into my possession I'd surely want to fix it up and run it. What you call "pot metal" is probably zamac, a zinc-aluminum-someotherstuff alloy. Over time some (not all) zamac castings turn cruddy and flaky like a Saltine cracker. It's a distinctive thing, and not what anyone calls "oxidation". I call it Zamac pest. I know of no way to fix a casting infected by zamac pest. From what I've read zamac pest is caused by some problem with the purity or mixture of the alloy back at the foundry. If the alloy was done right then it lasts for ever, if done wrong it develops zamac pest after some tens of years.
Assuming your castings are good, and not infested, oxidation ought to be just some discoloration of the metal. If it's just discoloration, the primer will cover it and you are good to go. If your oxidation is really surface roughness on addition to discoloration, then I'd first see if hot soapy water would help it. Then I might try a supermarket metal polish for pewter. They have polishes for silver and brass and I think they also have one for pewter. I'd be real careful using a Dremel and wire brush, the zamac is soft and the wire brush could leave marks or even rub off some detail.
In regards to the "model paint has finer ground pigment than regular paint" thing. I've heard that one too, but I don't believe it. I have spray painted a fair number HO boxcar models in red auto primer and the surface comes out just right, dead flat, a most convincing boxcar looking like it had been out in the weather for a few months after leaving the paint shop. Real boxcars come out of the paintshop with a touch of gloss but the rain washes that off in a matter of months. All the details, both cast on and applied look great. The flat primer surface even takes decals well.
Thanks, David.
I bought these Hobbytown diesels nearly 30 years ago as kits. Stuck them away and forgot about them after I moved to Silicon Valley in 1979! In the 70's they were considered the smoothest running models and I would like to get them out on the layout.
I have 3 of them and they appear to be infected with what you called Zamac pest. Once you mentioned the noun "zamac", I remembered the term :-). The castings are covered in a white crust which looks just like the saltine cracker you mentioned! I assumed it was some oxidization effect with the aluminium or zinc or whatever the alloy is made of.
From your experience, it sounds like I am hosed :-(. A shame since these are such nice models.
I think I will try to remove the "crust" as gently as possible. I had hoped that some sort of chemical soaking might work, but it sounds like I may need to scrub it off somehow. I would hate to trash these so I am hoping that if I can at least salvage the frames and running gear I can rebody them with body shells from someone. I did a Google search looking for anyone who sells just body shells. Athearn used to do it years ago but I could not find any. Maybe I'll need to go to a swap meet...
Thanks again.
Too bad. Zamac pest gets into the body of the casting and the whole thing gets crumbly, it's not just a surface thing. On the other hand, if the body of the casting is still sound, it may be recoverable by cleaners or abrasives. If you can get the crud off the surface and get down to good metal you are OK. The real Zamac pest goes deep and clean thru the metal, deforming the entire casting. So, yeah give it a try, if you can get the crud off and find decent metal underneath, you are OK.
I have a Varney Casey Jones from the 1950's. The tender underbody got infected. It got all bent out of shape, pulled the screws out of the plastic tender body. I was about to just make a new underbody from wood and press on, but my friendly local hobby shop guy pointed me toward Bowser, who bought the old Varney tooling 40 years back, and lo and behold, I was able to order a new tender underbody casting for a 50 year old locomotive, and it came in within a week. You might do some searching to see if the same thing happened to Hobbytown. There might be a sucessor company still making the stuff, and all you have to do is find it.
As for shells, I'd expect Athearn, P2K or Bachmann shells to fit, with perhaps some filing or hacking or shimming. You used to be able to order nearly any spare part from any of them. Athearn is under new management and I don't know what their spare parts policy is now, but you might still be able to just order the shell you want, painted for the roadname of your choice. Or, go to a train show. Plenty of junkers for little money with usable shells. Take the humblest shell out there, glaze the windows, do some wire handrails and grabs, paint and decal it well, and you have a winner.
Good luck