2-10-10-2 steam locomotive

[R. T. POTEET]

I checked my Brown Book and the only Virginian 2-10-10-2's were the 200 imported by Custom Brass in 1979. LMB did import the Erie Triplex but not the Virginian one, that was imported by both PSC and WMC.
Rick

I know the Brown Book to be incredibly accurate so if it does not give recognition to any 2-10-10-2s except for the Custom Brass import then I, undoubtedly, have been laboring in a delusion.  I do remember being exposed to this particularly unique - and  extremely rare - wheel arrangement early in my model railroading experience: I thought for sure that it was through a model import but I appear to have been incorrect in this circumstance and I apologize to the readership for advancing misinformation. Perhaps my knowledge of this locomotive came from rhetoric in one of the model railroad magazines; whatever might be the case I am glad that this issue has been clarified by those with more knowledge than mine.

As a clarification on a somewhat related issue involving triplex wheel arrangements I believe that the Virginian triplex was a 2-8-8-8-4 wheel arrangement whereas the Erie triplex was a 2-8-8-8-2. I do remember a writer somewhere stating that the Virginian triplex succeeded in running out of steam before running out of yard limits! Having just stumbled in my facts I am advancing this information as a "I think" possibility which, admittedly, may be incorrect.

[Virginian]

What the Virginian was trying to accomplish with their 2-10-10-2s, N&W with their 2-8-8-2s, and UP with their 4-8-8-4s, were different tasks.  If success is measured by service length, I think N&W wins hands down, but I don't think it's quite that simple.  While I am not a huge Big Boy fan (I doubt I'll be missed in the stampede), I do believe it was an emminently successful design; it was highly suited to it's task, and the Challenger did okay too.  N&W's freight loco's, the As and Ys, were in my opinion the very best out there at their jobs; N&W specialized in getting more from less, size wise.  C&O and VGN kinda stumbled with their 2-6-6-6s in my opinion - barely matching the capabilities of a Class A in any category but horsepower, at the cost of thousands and thousands of pounds of more weight.  They won the last horsepower war of the steam era, to what end I am not sure.  UP got the "biggest" glory, true or not, and N&W emerged as the legend of steam for all time.

Technology has progressed at a faster and faster pace as mankind has developed tools to help this evolution along.  The trend had already begun by the time the Big Boys and Y6bs arrived on the scene.  The last Js only served 9 years, and they are as fine a steam passenger engine as was ever built.

In our society, it matters not what product or service a company renders; only whether or not it makes money, and manages to keep it's name out of the mud.  On that basis, history should score the N&W, Virginian, and UP fairly highly I would think.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Bigger than the 4-8-8-4, no. They had more drive wheels, but they were a smaller diameter, as were the boilers.

Not true. The boiler of those VIRGINIAN beasts had a FAR GREATER diameter - thus having BY FAR the greatest heating surface. Only the grate area was a bit smaller, but this was never an issue because the coal they used was better than on UP. I had the opportunity to compare that model directly with a 4-8-8-4 - and aside from the somewhat shorter length it looks much bigger than the Big Boy - both higher and broader.

[Morpar]

Bigger than the 4-8-8-4, no. They had more drive wheels, but they were a smaller diameter, as were the boilers. They were NEVER built for speed, but for dragging coal trains out of the mountains. Remember, these locos were compound Mallets, (meaning the steam got used twice, so it didn't need a huge boiler) and the low pressure cylinders were four feet in diameter! The thrust loads on something that size are huge, and to go very fast (I understand they were limited to 15 mph) would have made the loco self-destruct. MR had plans for them in the August 1967 issue, and the drawings show that they were a compact loco for the number of wheels. The same can be said of the N&W 2-8-8-2 locos, none of them had a big boiler, they were about the size of the ones used on the 4-8-4s. But again, the N&W wasn't looking for high speed in these locos, but an efficient mountain killer that could bring the coal to the loading docks. The needs of these roads were greatly different than for the UP with it's longer, constant grade runs through the west.

[asta]

so are these engines are alot bigger the the 4-8-8-4?

[dti406]

None of the real ones has been saved, and as others stated, the only H0scale model is a Japanese built brass one, but imported by CUSTOM BRASS. It is a very good model, but due to the era it has been produced some details have been omitted, and currently I add these, plus I would rework the drive line.

Custom Brass may very well have imported one of these but that must be a second offering then and I missed it in the dark; I am certain that Custom Brass came into being AFTER I first became acquainted with this engine which, I am sure, dated from the mid-60s.

I know when I first got in the hobby this LMB outfit was importing the Matt H. Shay; I did not initially realize that 2-10-10-2s and 2-8-8-8-2s were unique wheel arrangements; they sure looked impressive to this rookie model rail!

 

I checked my Brown Book and the only Virginian 2-10-10-2's were the 200 imported by Custom Brass in 1979. LMB did import the Erie Triplex but not the Virginian one, that was imported by both PSC and WMC.

 

Rick 

[andrechapelon]

The Virginian used the electrics also which probably cut short the life of these drag engines.   If you have the dates of their mainline service, I would appreciate the information. 

All of the Virginian AE 2-10-10-2 locos were built in 1918. Seven were scrapped in 1948, two in 1952 and the last, #805, was not cut up until May, 1958. They all had a service life of at least 30 years.

Source: "The Virginian Railway" by H. Reid, Kalmbach Publishing, 1970.

Andre

[Don Gibson]

THE SANTA FE 2-10-10-2 was made up from 2 900 class 2-10-2s. for their Arizona divde pull. 

The WHALEBACK TENDER was designed so this engine could be run backwards. It is doubtful the ATSF had turtables long enough to turn it.

Reputedly, this engine' suffered from insufficient boiler steam and limited top speed. They were all rebuilt back to 2-10-2s. The 'Whalebacks' were primarily attached to the new 1600 class rebuilds.

 

[tatans]

Cute, real cute !!

[R. T. POTEET]

None of the real ones has been saved, and as others stated, the only H0scale model is a Japanese built brass one, but imported by CUSTOM BRASS. It is a very good model, but due to the era it has been produced some details have been omitted, and currently I add these, plus I would rework the drive line.

Custom Brass may very well have imported one of these but that must be a second offering then and I missed it in the dark; I am certain that Custom Brass came into being AFTER I first became acquainted with this engine which, I am sure, dated from the mid-60s.

I know when I first got in the hobby this LMB outfit was importing the Matt H. Shay; I did not initially realize that 2-10-10-2s and 2-8-8-8-2s were unique wheel arrangements; they sure looked impressive to this rookie model rail!

[CAZEPHYR]

Most of the so called early large steam experiments like the 2-10-10-2 and the Triplex engines were not sucessful in actual operation.  The 2-10-10-2's were extremely slow and the boiler was not sufficient size in steam generation.  This was the problem with the Triplex engine as the boiler could not provide sufficient amount of steam for the three sets of cylinders.  They were used very little in actual service. 

Cheers

But the VIRGINIAN 2-10-10-2s were VERY successful - much more than the later 2-6-6-6s and 2-8-4s. They ran for decades, and did it UNCHANGED - except some got a Worthington BL feedwater heater. These engines were what the road wanted. A huge boiler (btw it was the largest ever used on any steam locomotive) which COULD AND DID provide sufficient steam, and plenty of T.E. VIRGINIAN always was a drag speed road, so these engines fit perfectly, thus the long operating life span. 

I am not sure and don't have any reference books to find out how long the 2-10-10-2's were used, but I am under the impression they were not used like the USRA 2-8-8-2's of other railroad.  They were not high horsepower locomotives and could not have sustained the amount of steam sufficient needed for any other service other than slow drag service.  The Virginian used the electrics also which probably cut short the life of these drag engines.   If you have the dates of their mainline service, I would appreciate the information.  Even the Virginian used the 2-8-8-2's in their road service.   Did ALCO build the 2-10-10-2's ??   I could not find any reference to them in my Baldwin books, which has the Triplex I referred to.

 The Triplex design was really a problem. The quote below is from the Norfork and Western Historical Society concerning the merged Viginian.   They were returned to Baldwin after the tests.

Steam Locomotives   

The Virginian was often in the forefront of steam locomotive development, particularly in the area of LARGE articulated locomotives. The most (in)famous was the class XA Baldwin Triplex. This was built expressly for pusher service up the Clark's Gap grade. Unfortunately, its appetite for steam exceeded the capacity of its boiler. It was returned to Baldwin after extensive field trials, and was rebuilt into two smaller locomotives.

.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Most of the so called early large steam experiments like the 2-10-10-2 and the Triplex engines were not sucessful in actual operation.  The 2-10-10-2's were extremely slow and the boiler was not sufficient size in steam generation.  This was the problem with the Triplex engine as the boiler could not provide sufficient amount of steam for the three sets of cylinders.  They were used very little in actual service. 

Cheers

But the VIRGINIAN 2-10-10-2s were VERY successful - much more than the later 2-6-6-6s and 2-8-4s. They ran for decades, and did it UNCHANGED - except some got a Worthington BL feedwater heater. These engines were what the road wanted. A huge boiler (btw it was the largest ever used on any steam locomotive) which COULD AND DID provide sufficient steam, and plenty of T.E. VIRGINIAN always was a drag speed road, so these engines fit perfectly, thus the long operating life span. 

[CAZEPHYR]

 

Most of the so called early large steam experiments like the 2-10-10-2 and the Triplex engines were not sucessful in actual operation.  The 2-10-10-2's were extremely slow and the boiler was not sufficient size in steam generation.  This was the problem with the Triplex engine as the boiler could not provide sufficient amount of steam for the three sets of cylinders.  They were used very little in actual service. 

Cheers

 

 

 

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

I have seen about 15 of them on Ebay so far. They go for a fair price.  Westside makes them. When I get home I'll email you all the pics you want on them. I can also give you the prices they went for. It seems like you could buy one a lot cheaper then you could build one.

He meant the VIRGINIAN engine, not the SANTA FE - which you are thinking of. The VIRGINIAN model from Custom Brass is much rarer (only 200 pieces) than the Westside SANTA Fe engine, and they are much more expensive. The last one I saw went away for exactly 2500$, but it was as mint as it could get. And since my 3 ebay years I found only about 5 or 6 of these models (one of these is in my collection now) - and none at the online dealers.

[Virginian]

Interesting locos.  They did exhibit some TE.  I love VGN (rather obviously), but between the VGN 800s and the SF whaleback tender ones, I think the 2-10-10-2s win the ugly tender competition, hands down, among all classes.  I know why they did it and I don't care - it's ugly.  On the other hand, the VGN's USE class were about the most handsome mallets in my opinion with that classic plain boiler front, and the BA's were the Ultimate non-articulated fast freight locos.

[ndbprr]

The 2-10-10-2 was built for the Virginian Railroad for hauling coal from West Virginia to Norfolk.  They were built in a drag era and were designed to run at ten miles an hour.  The front cylinders were 48" in diameter and were shipped separately becasue of clearance problems on other railroads.  MR had plans for it back in the magazine back in the 70's.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

None of the real ones has been saved, and as others stated, the only H0scale model is a Japanese built brass one, but imported by CUSTOM BRASS. It is a very good model, but due to the era it has been produced some details have been omitted, and currently I add these, plus I would rework the drive line.

[Cheyenne Roundhouse]

some one made on in brass and it was on ebay not to long ago.

[R. T. POTEET]

i had found this information on these two railroads website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-10-10-2#Virginian_Railway_class_AE  and i am trying to get more photos of these engines so i can attempt to build one for my layout or if anyone knows if these where ever made for a HO scale layout and if any do exist

 

  thanks

 david

I got interested in the hobby in 1962 and shortly afterwards one of these showed up as a Japanese import; I seem to recall it was by a company called LMB with offices in Cleveland.  I have been in this hobby now for forty-five years and that is the only one I can recall ever being on the market.

[asta]

i had found this information on these two railroads website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-10-10-2#Virginian_Railway_class_AE  and i am trying to get more photos of these engines so i can attempt to build one for my layout or if anyone knows if these where ever made for a HO scale layout and if any do exist

 

  thanks

    david