Great, yet another esoteric topic destined for a padlock.
Oh, and a hobby is simply a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation (per Webster). Seems like a few here are pursuing this hobby as though it IS their regular occupation.
selector wrote: I don't necessarily invite the picking apart of my definitions, but can they provide a basis for a friendly discussion of how we minimize the rancor in important and potentially revealing threads?
Do you think it is possible to deal with the broader hobby without specificity and personal interests adversely affecting the tone and the advancement of the subject, or will we just have to live with threads that have a natural half-life?
For example, there are some threads that have specificity, and others that are merely a friendly form of banter, that tend to stay up in the first two pages quite handily?
What is it about these threads that is unlike others that make some of us angry with one another?
How is it that in a single hobby that welcomes folks from all walks of life we so easily break into camps?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I've never had such philosphical thoughts or ideas about our hobby. I just do what I enjoy doing, making models and taking photos of them. I follow this forum to hopefully be able to learn something, share info that I might have and hear about new products.
Perhaps the OP with over 8200 posts on this forum spends too much time musing and not enough time modeling? To each his own I guess!
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Selector,
I read your definitions with interest. I understand your motivation for this thread, given that all too many recent ones have deteriorated into rather uncivil affairs.
I would offer the following thoughts if I may.
Of course, however any given individual chooses to pursue it, the hobby is indeed "fun" for us as individuals. But having said that, clearly some people pursue their fun with greater passion than others, and feel strongly that their particular approach to the hobby is "the best one". The hobby is fun, but given the amount of time, energy, and cash used in its pursuit, it can also be taken very seriously.
The nature of a forum like this is that every time we post something, we do so with the understanding that there is an implicit invitation to comment. While I'm no psychologist, I believe that it is a common human trait to want to "win people over" to your point of view. People with strongly held views (political, religious, and yes even model railroading) cannot resist the temptation / opportunity to preach their version of the gospel. Unfortunately, they often fail to promote their own views without simultaneously denigrating others'.
Civilities all too often go out the window for several reasons:
Generally speaking, the threads that are most likely to degenerate into flamethrowing spectacles are the ones that invite subjective "philosophical" responses (like this one ), rather than technical details. I wonder if the forum might be well served by a separate Debating Area where people can (civilly) engage in whatever topic is chosen for that week...let a topic run for a specified period of time, then shut it down and pick another. Just a thought. I don't know if it would work.
At the end of the day however, the problem is virtually impossible to fix. You can ask for civility and tolerance all you want, but I suspect that you won't get it. There will always be a few individuals who can't temper their enthusiasm. When things get out of control the only remedies that remain are thread-locking or banishment of individuals by the powers that be.
As is the nature of threads like this one, I've provided a lot of commentary but unfortunately, no answers. I share your hope that people will think twice before hitting the SEND button when they've composed a nasty comment in haste and anger. Cheers.
Well, I can see we're not all working off of the same definitions. Maybe that's part of the problem. My version:
Hobby: I agree and would add not usually done for financial gain.
Railroad modelling: The building of models/minatures of railroad equipment, structures, settings, etc. that may or may not have moving parts/animation. Just as there are different schools of painting so there are different schools of railroad modeling, including but not limited to exact replication (all the details), impressionistic (less detail), fictional, fantasy, etc.
Model railroading: The building and operation of a model transportation system that simulates movement of people and goods using railroads. This could be done using Lionel 027, Plasticville structures, and grass mats; or highly detailed museum quality locomotives, tracks, structures, scenery; or something in between. Again there can be different schools of operation including exact replication (including paperwork), impressionistic (less paperwork), fictional, fantasy, etc.
Toys: I'm okay with this.
Toy Trains: I would add that these are intended for children, yeah I know who's going to spend $2000 for a Big Boy that some kid is going to run around the floor and then stuff into a toy box. Maybe nominally intended for children or once intended for children.
Fun: I would stop after the first sentence.
Conflict:I would add that it also occurs when there is greed or desire to dominate.
Good will: To me good will means that I care about the well being of others and is extended without regard to merit.
Interests: I admit I don't quite understand where you are going with this one. My interests are things I enjoy doing or learning about.
As someone (Winston Churchill?) once said, "We are two peoples separated by a common language." I suspect part of the problem with some threads is due to our having slightly and not so slightly different definitions of terms. Case in point is the term "Rivet Counter"; it means very different things to different people some of whom are passionate about their definition to the point where several threads have gone into total warfare over it.
Personally, I try to never take anything personally. I'm not always successful, but I do try.
Enjoy
Paul
Have you read some of the discourse on YouTube?
Unfortunately, some people are predisposed to argue. Egos are fragile and fuses are short. There are lot of angry folks in this world. It's pretty amusing to think that most people expect entire nations to coexist peacefully when they can't even get along with their own neighbors.
File that sad truth under "Nature: Human."
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
If I may share...
Back in 2000-2002 while stationed in Ohio I joined the 6th Ohio Volunteer Militia (Guthrie Grays), a Civil War reenactment group. I'd been a member of the 148th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry, a great unit, up until then. The 6th Ohio were a great bunch of guys, but the unit fell apart because of differing visions of what it should be. In fact, the whole Civil War hobby was being torn at that time.
The stitch counters (I'm not making this up) hand-made all their clothes, slept in the open, and criticized everything. The mainstreamers packed beers into coolers they covered with period blankets and wore machine-made uniforms. One side said "We must suffer like the real soldiers did so that we honor them." The other side said "It's just a hobby; let's have fun!"
I fell in the middle, like I do in model railroading. I had some machine-made and some hand-made stuff. I slept in a shelter half or in the open, not a full tent. I tried to be as accurate as possible, but never forced others too. Eventually, the stitch-counters pushed too hard and the unit split in two.
My point? Not everyone has the same vision of what the hobby should be. We all want to have fun, but there's no one standard for what is fun.
From the recent locked thread I get the impression some might think a guy like me is too busy being accurate to have fun. In fact, besides my family and friends, model railroading is the greatest joy in my life. Re-creating a railroad scene I was born too late to witness in person has been extremely fulfilling.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Selector I agree with what I think are your thoughts. This is a hobby that is supposed to be fun and relaxing. The conflict that has risen on this forum as of late has been sometimes created on purpose, sometimes created when poster is trying to promote healthy discussion, and sometimes from misinterpretation of what we are trying to say. The tone and the language used in our posts sometimes creates conflict. It puts people on the defensive and closes our mine to healthy discussion. Dave V's post recently on 3 Mantras was very interesting, I hope he starts one on themes because it really has caused me to think on how I can improve my Modelling whether I do prototypic or a fantasy I see many ways to improve and hold my interest for the long term. Thank you all
Kevin
Full Moon. May 31st.
Werewolves of London again....
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
loathar wrote:Just curious where you got these definitions from? ...
They're my own, Loathar. They may resemble others, but that would be largely coincidental, although all that I am is from the works of others before me, here or elsewhere. I thought I would try to derive, as an exercise (perhaps in futility), a set of definitions that we might accept...even if we have to hold our noses. Just for the purpose of trying to find a method to keep our discourse oriented toward the topics, and not toward the utterer.
Even when we disagree we lose richness and opportunity sometimes if the discussion gets into the gutter and we can't continue apace. Gutter balls are spectacular in that they hold our attention, but they don't amount to much when we tally the score. I really dislike it when otherwise decent discussions get sidetracked into personal vitriol.
selector wrote: (snip)...How is it that in a single hobby that welcomes folks from all walks of life we so easily break into camps?
(snip)...How is it that in a single hobby that welcomes folks from all walks of life we so easily break into camps?
Just like anything out in the world, everybody will relate better with some people than with others, and I see it on this forum a lot. It's too bad that we can't all accept each other despite what we like and just try to enjoy this hobby. Then again, if it were in our human nature to be forgiving of differences, then there would be no racism, sexism, and all other forms of separation that we see day to day.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
HOBBY
Defined: an activity normally outside of one's occupation done for diversion, pleasure, and relaxation.
RAILROAD MODELLING
Defined: a hobby in which the person endeavours to replicate a scale example of a currently operational or an historical railroad using various skills, techniques, and materials. The goal, conventionally, is to approximate the reality to the extent possible within one's means and abilities. The outcome tends not to rely on the opinions of onlookers for validation and worth unless it is presented for that purpose.
MODEL RAILROADING
Defined: common term used to denote the pursuit of enjoying scaled toy trains, not always prototypical, sometimes on an elaborate and highly functional mock-up or layout, and otherwise with simple and temporary orientations of track on available surfaces. Unlike railroad modelling, this pursuit is less restrictive and is even more subjective in that fidelity to a real or former prototype is not necessary. Its purpose is more fanciful or whimsical, and not meant to be a rigorous attempt to replicate the reality in detail.
TOYS
Defined: small implements, devices, replicas in scale of real items, meant for amusement and pleasure. They may operate realistically when provided with energy and a motive device, or may not be meant to move at all. Toys may be stuffed animals, dolls, cars, trains, planes, and other commonly found objects.
TOY TRAINS
Defined: any item, whether mechanically moved or static, that is a scale replica of a real or imagined locomotive or full train, extant or no longer existing, that is meant to be used for fun and amusement, as in a hobby.
FUN
Defined: a partially dissociative experience or emotion induced when excited, pleased, aroused, or when doing anything that is interesting and desirable. It can be an end in and of itself, and is occasionally used to justify any pursuit. This last point often results in conflict between those whose path to fun is markedly different from others', even in the broad confines of the same game or hobby.
CONFLICT
Defined: a state met when either two or more persons with incompatible interests must share limited resources or when their divergent preferences for a desired state causes resentment, mistrust, or anxiety. Commonly the conflict arises out of errors in understanding, such as ambiguous or arcane taxonomies, poorly defined terms, or from concepts and constructs with low face validity (not intuitively acceptable). The remediation involves building trust and good will among the affected stakeholders so that they can build a common understanding upon which to bridge their differences.
GOOD WILL
Defined: a cultured and wilful disposition to regard positively all others, regardless of their appearance, mannerisms, creed, sexuality, marital status, medical condition, stage of life, or interests. Note that this does not preclude value judgments against proscribed, illegal, or immoral acts, nor does it preclude the withholding of good will towards those who are judged to be mean-spirited, evil, egoistic, untrustworthy, or generally uncivil and unfriendly.
INTERESTS
Defined: one's privately or publicly defined means or outcomes for achievement, advancement, gratification, self-promotion, power, and status.
I wonder how all this fits in with some of the more intractable discussions we have had lately. I don't necessarily invite the picking apart of my definitions, but can they provide a basis for a friendly discussion of how we minimize the rancor in important and potentially revealing threads? Do you think it is possible to deal with the broader hobby without specificity and personal interests adversely affecting the tone and the advancement of the subject, or will we just have to live with threads that have a natural half-life? For example, there are some threads that have specificity, and others that are merely a friendly form of banter, that tend to stay up in the first two pages quite handily? What is it about these threads that is unlike others that make some of us angry with one another? How is it that in a single hobby that welcomes folks from all walks of life we so easily break into camps?