Midnight Railroader wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: My layout has improved vastly from criticsm of others. "Attayboys" don't teach a modeler anything. They simply stroke the ego.And, at least on these forums, it has become SOP to give those "attaboys" to all posted photos, no matter the quality of the modeling. I wonder if some posters are afraid to be honest because they'll be slapped with the usual "it's-his-layout"-variety of lines.
Dave Vollmer wrote: My layout has improved vastly from criticsm of others. "Attayboys" don't teach a modeler anything. They simply stroke the ego.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Dave Vollmer wrote: Oh, and lest you feel I think too much of my own modeling (I know there's probably an air of conceit to this post), I know I have a long, long way to climb out of mediocrity myself. I'm lucky in that what I've done works, but I'm no advanced modeler. I would like to be, though!
Every once in a while I admire my work. Then I look at Charlie Comstock's work or Joe Fugate's and see where I have to go. I'm starting a couple new layouts so I have a chance to start over.
There's another trick here:
On one hand, you should be proud of what you have accomplished. On the other hand, you should continue to strive for excellence.
Too often I doubt my progress. That is when I look for attaboys. In the ideal world, I would be confident enough in what I have done not to need them. Still, when I write, paint, act, direct, or model, I like to put out my arms and gather the applause.
The poor and mediocre and master modelers are no different here, I believe. When we post our work, we want attaboys.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I think you just hit ONE of the nails right on the head. Plus, you don't want to hurt someones feelings that's doing the best job their capable of. We're not all master modelers here.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Not everyone will have the full suite of skills to be an exert modeler. But maybe it's just my personality, but I can't understand why people wouldn't want to hone those skills and advance. So, I tend to assume (often incorrectly) that everyone wants to keep advancing.That's my baggage, not yours.
Not everyone will have the full suite of skills to be an exert modeler. But maybe it's just my personality, but I can't understand why people wouldn't want to hone those skills and advance. So, I tend to assume (often incorrectly) that everyone wants to keep advancing.
That's my baggage, not yours.
Dave, its one thing to not have a full suite of skills to be an expert modeler, but when we're talking about comments being made on another's modelers work, what is required are people skills.
I think it is good to be honest if your opinion is solicited, but it is important to get your message accross without being hurtful. Some folks are more skillful than others when it comes to communicating.
I don't want what I'm about to say to cast doubt upon all of my past and future compliments, buuuuut....
I have on some past occasions been less than honest by offering praise because it seems like the right thing to do, but not because it's necessarily warranted.
I have since decided not to do that anymore. It's dishonest, and it doesn't help the modeler in question. So, at least now, if you get an attayboy from me you will know it's genuine.
But those few times when I did sort of "lie" in a compliment, I did a mediocre modeler a disservice. I did not give that person the chance to choose to learn (or not) from what I had to offer. Instead I fell into the "back-patting" trap. But, bear in mind that I always take into consideration any extenuating circumstances of which I may be aware, such as a modeler's age, disability, budget, etc. In that light there's not that much that really meets the "mediocre" moniker. But it's out there.
Oh, and lest you feel I think too much of my own modeling (I know there's probably an air of conceit to this post), I know I have a long, long way to climb out of mediocrity myself. I'm lucky in that what I've done works, but I'm no advanced modeler. I would like to be, though!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
SpaceMouse wrote:what I will do is find something in the picture that I do like and compliment that.
Sometimes probing questions can be used to move beyond a normal modeling mantra. "I notice you used a ppp track arrangment. Is there any particular reason you chose that over qqq?"
3989
SpaceMouse wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: My layout has improved vastly from criticsm of others. "Attayboys" don't teach a modeler anything. They simply stroke the ego.And, at least on these forums, it has become SOP to give those "attaboys" to all posted photos, no matter the quality of the modeling. I wonder if some posters are afraid to be honest because they'll be slapped with the usual "it's-his-layout"-variety of lines.This is a tough point for me. On one hand, I have trouble acknowledging people who post photos of work that is not up to my standards. The farther from my standards it is, the harder it is.On the other hand, I know my work is not up to other people's standards, but I still want the attaboys from them. I admit that many times, I resolve the issue by pretending it doesn't exist--uh I mean, not posting.If I am true to my nature, though, what I will do is find something in the picture that I do like and compliment that. Hopefully, it will encourage the poster to bring the rest of what's in the picture to that standard. Sometimes, all I can come up with is attaboy.
This is a tough point for me. On one hand, I have trouble acknowledging people who post photos of work that is not up to my standards. The farther from my standards it is, the harder it is.
On the other hand, I know my work is not up to other people's standards, but I still want the attaboys from them.
I admit that many times, I resolve the issue by pretending it doesn't exist--uh I mean, not posting.
If I am true to my nature, though, what I will do is find something in the picture that I do like and compliment that. Hopefully, it will encourage the poster to bring the rest of what's in the picture to that standard.
Sometimes, all I can come up with is attaboy.
And please continue to shine your light, it is welcomed and appreciated, as too many folks on these forums cast a shadow.
It's also important to note that various forums encourage or discourage growth. Some can be downright blind to the obvious, while others are so challenging, that some newcomers or novices don't even feel welcome.
This forum tends to run down the middle of the road since the host doesn't want anyone to be offended, but also welcomes and occasionally showcases high quality work.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Well said, Crandell!
Although, your argument about the 123 cm of track almost - almost - makes me want to start up about "model railroaders" vs. "model railroad dabblers," but I'll let someone else start that fight!
I think too many of you are missing Dave's points because you've been doing this too long to look at the problem with a fresh point of view.
I'm new to this hobby, meaning I've been doing research for over a year. My first vision was of a completely freelanced layout running in circles. Had my first guide (LHS owner) let me do that, I'd have already built something, been bored of it, and left the hobby forever. Thank goodness he didn't have a big car payment to make that month.
After learning more, my next vision was of a RR that was still freelanced, but had some kind of working industry and some limited reason for running.
As I continued to learn, I changed to decide that engines and rolling stock should be somewhat realistic, but not painfully perfect, and the railroad should work. This is where I'll probably end up building my first actual layout because that's what I want. That's what I've chosen to do.
You see? It's a matter of choice, and I think Dave is railing on people who are defauliting instead of making an active choice. I am finding that there is so much more joy in making an active decision, as opposed to defaulting to what someone else suggests. Make an active choice to freelance, or build with Legos, or superdetail. Knock yourself out. But those that are being ecouraged to default into decisions because it's expedient or easy will not get as much out of the hobby as those who are presented active decisions, and follow their gut on what they really want.
Apologies to Dave if I missed his point entirely.
Wow, Dave, good discussion. I think everyone is generally in consensus that when you pursue plausibility, whether free-lance or prototype, you will find that your horizons expand, your knowledge of railroading deepens, and your appreciation for your own and others' modeling efforts becomes more genuine.
We probably all started out the same way, with a "shot-gun" approach. A simple track plan, a variety of engines and rolling stock that we "liked". Plausibility or theme hadn't entered into it.
If you've ever been to a Lionel collector's house, this is usually where they get off. We scale guys may think that's a silly guy playing with trains, but ask him the difference between a 1944 power pack and one produced in the late '50's, and they'll floor you with their knowledge.
We also have our different paths to satisfaction. One guy will spend two years scratch building a particular passenger car so he can enjoy watching it trail around on a circle of Unitrak on a sheet of LifeLike grass mat. Others will spend untold hours carefully replicating a passenger station in their town, along with the scene around it, then run a Bachmann train set engine through the scene.
Sometimes "Rule #1" is the last refuge of a scoundrel, but more often it's a confession that the modeler hasn't mastered the particular phase of the hobby that's in question.
As for me personally, I chose to model the Western Maryland in the late 60's about 8 years ago. Since then, I feel my skills have increased, my desire to learn more has increased, and the quality of the models and scenery I build have improved. But I don't adhere to every little detail. My Vo-1000 was retired in 1968, and my GP 40 was delivered in 1971, but there they are side by side on the layout! My primary source of coal traffic is the Chaffee Branch, most of which was closed by 1956, but I dig switchback coal operations, so there it is! No true WM steam survived the scrapper's torch, except #202 which became a paper weight in a Hagerstown Park, and the Shay #6, but I now roster a Bachmann Consolidation which earns it's keep running the occasional excursion train (The WM was a popular place for surviving steam engines to run back in the early 70's, so this isn't out of bounds in my mind, either.)
I also maintain an interchange with my Laurel Valley Railway, a freelance in the Alleghenies. I did a lot of custom cars years ago, and I needed an excuse to keep them.
So yes, it's my railroad and I run what I want, but I do so within a particular context that contributes to the plausibility of the layout.
Thanks for prodding the old noggin' to life on this languid afternoon.
jasperofzeal wrote: selector wrote:So, the upshot is, "Beware invitations to be less than you can be."I think letting people enjoy the hobby is the proper idea. When they get bored of just playing with trains, then that's when you educated folks come in and show a different aspect of the hobby, show them that there is more than just playing with the trains. Why should "newbies" be robbed of their enjoyment? Not everyone finds researching and running only one type of equipment fun and enjoyable. We need to keep a diverseness to what we do, or just like Mr. Smith up there, I too would lose interest in this hobby.
selector wrote:So, the upshot is, "Beware invitations to be less than you can be."
I think letting people enjoy the hobby is the proper idea. When they get bored of just playing with trains, then that's when you educated folks come in and show a different aspect of the hobby, show them that there is more than just playing with the trains. Why should "newbies" be robbed of their enjoyment? Not everyone finds researching and running only one type of equipment fun and enjoyable. We need to keep a diverseness to what we do, or just like Mr. Smith up there, I too would lose interest in this hobby.
Tony, I get it...really, I do. I couldn't agree with you any more than I do this very minute. My statement was a way of trying, once again, to get inside of Dave's head. There are others readings this thread who may wonder what the heck we're all on about. For them, as I began to do early in the thread, I wanted to make sure I knew exactly where Dave was headed. Dave came across as peeved that too many newcomers are encouraged to mark time indefinitely, that they were given approbation to dally, to have fun, and to not look around at other ways to do this hobby that others find more appealing. My several attempts to state what I thought Dave was saying were to help me, and perhaps by extension, others, to understand exactly what he is explaining.
So, what would be the point of getting into a passtime in which you were required, by some statute or custom/convention, to conform to a rigid set of rules that takes all the fun out of it? Dave agrees that we should all encourage rather than discourage growth. Yes, oh yes, each one of us absolutely has the self-determination to run a set of arcs comprising a perfect circle of track with a radius of precisely 123 cm, and thence to place whatever we can get to run on it and to watch that train perform endless cycles around the track. That is, and should be, fun for some.
But wait, Dave says, there's more! Much more!!! Have you considered this? Or, that?
All Dave is griping about is that too many among us seek to essentially actively discourage a wider vision than said 123 cm oval. We tell the person, "Relax, it's your hobby. Make of it what you will." All true, by the way. What gets lost in the message is, "Would you keep an eye to what others are doing? Notice this and that about their photos? Why have they done this? What was their goal when they set out on this path? Think about what there could be for you if you decide that you are becoming detached to your 123 cms?
Maybe in the end it is not unlike parenting; it can be hands-off or hands-on. If we only stroke the egos, and don't even affect to encourage development outside of the 123 cms, is this the stewardship on which the hobby is meant to thrive?
Dave, I don't know that I have managed to draw your arcs any better....
This thread just keeps folding back in on itself like a mobius strip. I think I get your point Dave, and there's an old quote that sums it up best: "Argue for your limitations and they are yours."
The problem is that I am hard-pressed to think of anyone who's potential is being restrained by a few cliches. Do you have examples? When people say such things, generally they're indicating that they're comfortable where they are, and so be it. Don't bother me none. You should concentrate on what you like to model, and thereby serve as an inspiration to people when and if they're ready to learn, but not everyone is at the same point on the curve, or has the same goals in mind. It's as true with model railroading as any other aspect of life.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
I think alot of it depends on how you pose your reply. I've seen some replies that come off as just plain rude, even thought that was not the posters intent.
Also offering advice as to how to accomplish a task better -vs- just telling someone they've done it wrong is also a faux paux I've seen here alot too.
I'll never pick on someone's theme, but if I see something that should at least be brought to there attention I will tell them, then I will offer a way to fix it and usually couch it with "If you choose to fix it then.... if not, then enjoy"
All we can do is offer the advice, its up to the modeler to decide whether it to their advantange to listen to it. But its very important to consider how we pose the advice
Theres a world of difference between "I suggest this" and "You should have done this" in the eyes of the reader.
Have fun with your trains
Dave Vollmer wrote: Mr Smith,You missed my point. Sorry about that.I was not railing against freelancing. Many freelanced layouts are far more plausible than some attempts at prototype modeling.And no, no one's saying your models look bad. They look fine to me.Neither am I telling you what to do on your layout. Some people, however, close the door on ever getting any better by screaming "it's my layout" any time someone offers constructive criticsm.The other issue is that some people take any criticism, no matter how constructive or good-natured, as condemnation.My layout has improved vastly from criticsm of others. "Attayboys" don't teach a modeler anything. They simply stroke the ego.
Mr Smith,
You missed my point. Sorry about that.
I was not railing against freelancing. Many freelanced layouts are far more plausible than some attempts at prototype modeling.
And no, no one's saying your models look bad. They look fine to me.
Neither am I telling you what to do on your layout. Some people, however, close the door on ever getting any better by screaming "it's my layout" any time someone offers constructive criticsm.
The other issue is that some people take any criticism, no matter how constructive or good-natured, as condemnation.
My layout has improved vastly from criticsm of others. "Attayboys" don't teach a modeler anything. They simply stroke the ego.
I get where yer coming from. I'm just a wild and wolly modeler who wanted to say "dont be afraid to just do it" .
I know what you mean by the types who cannot take ANY criticsim, well intended or not, unfortunatly there really is very little you can do for some of them, they just ramble along in their own way. I tend to find these types being lone wolfs anyway. I always listen when someone offers an opinion on something I've built, I then weigh what they said versus my intented goal. and I have changed some models for the better due to these comments, and I have disregarded others as not being within what my intended goals wee.
Its amazing how many people will offer you strong urgent recommendations of how to "improve" your model, based strickley on what they want to see, with no consideration of what your goal was. So it goes both ways. I came up thru different scales and other hobbies as well so its easy for me to sift the wheat from the chaff. But it can be hard for a newbie to sift through all that.
Brakie
Its been my experience that any monkey using a Klambake or Atlas layout building guide can with reasonable ease build the basic 4x8 support structure of a layout. It really isn't rocket science, and the plethora of different instant roadbed track out there really takes alot of the issues of bad track laying out of the equation. I've seen the Model RR project layout videos, and for most guys who start with a 4x8 Plywood Pacific, its really a no brainer these days. Try using felt backed flex track, I did.... once.
My term refers to what you choose to model, and how you choose to model it. So if you want a 70's disco themed RR complete with rhinestone clad rolling stock and disco ball over the layout, then do it! If thats what makes you happy then go for it.
"Theres no wrong way to build a Model Railroad".
Untrue..There are many wrong ways to build a model railroad starting with poor equipment running on poorly laid track on poorly built bench work.Thats just the tip of the wrong way to build a railroad iceberg..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
Brunton wrote: Sounds like we're getting into the usual chasmic divide between those who believe that model railroading is a personal activity that one can pursue as they please, and those who apparently believe it should be as regimented as Nazi Germany was! These threads usually end up that way."Slap someone upside the head?!" Who do you people think you are, that you would even consider the idea of demanding that someone give up his/her choice in order to take up yours instead?! Did God himself annoint YOU the dictator of the modeling world? Model railroading in some way other than the way YOU do it is not the moral equivalent of murder or some such thing! Quit acting like it is and get a life! Sheesh!
Sounds like we're getting into the usual chasmic divide between those who believe that model railroading is a personal activity that one can pursue as they please, and those who apparently believe it should be as regimented as Nazi Germany was! These threads usually end up that way.
"Slap someone upside the head?!" Who do you people think you are, that you would even consider the idea of demanding that someone give up his/her choice in order to take up yours instead?! Did God himself annoint YOU the dictator of the modeling world? Model railroading in some way other than the way YOU do it is not the moral equivalent of murder or some such thing! Quit acting like it is and get a life!
Sheesh!
Mark,If you knew some of the guys I was talking about I am sure you would agree with a slap to the old noggin would be needed as a wake up call...
I dislike seeing talented modelers doing mediocre work.I encourage them to do better as I do all modelers.That doesn't qualify me as a dictator of the modeling world but,a encourager in a kind way.If a modeler shows less then standard work I base my replies as a encouragement.IF its terrible I don't reply..Best to remain silent in some cases then to either encourage bad work or hurt feelings.Either one is as bad as the other.
When I answer a question its based on facts either from lessons learn(usually the hard way) or from observation of what I seen done by other modelers.
A lot of my comments is to (hopefully) cause one to stop and think outside of the normal box and rethink the matter through and draw their own conclusions BASED on ALL replies or answers..
Maybe so Chip
But I felt I needed to add a shout out for the wild and wolly freelancers, I live by the creed;
"Theres no wrong way to build a Model Railroad"
And I truely beleive that, theirs only whats wrong to other people POVs.
Granted that leaves the barn door wide open, but I also beleive modelers will eventually model to their best skill level, but no one should on them for starting somewhere less than spectacular. This hobby takes time and most modelers who get deep into it (notice I did not say "serious") build 2 or 3 or more layouts in their lifetime.
So if someone gets a kick building a Thomas themed layout with anything and everything running in circles, then let them. Who can say 10 years from now they wont be gracing the pages of a magazine with a terrific layout that was the result of the seed planted with that first successful Thomas layout. Ya never know.
Mr. Smith,
I don't think anyone is really questioning your right to freelance--I'm certainly not as I am fairly well out there in my own freelance efforts. And I agree there is a certain amount of comfort in prototypical operations.
But that was not the gist of Dave's arguement. The Gist is that some people use the three mantras as an excuse to as Crandell put it, "Be less than they can be."
I don't think you do that.
My Karma ran over your Dogma....
The following is from a longtime freelancer who think youz proto guys are missing the very point of freelancing....
1. "It's my layout, I'll run what I want."
But it is MY layout, not yours, not MRs, not the guy behind the counter at the LHS. MINE...and therefore its MY decision to choose what I want to add. In my case its large scale narrow gauge thats a mix of several narrow gauge tram lines. I build or kitbash all of my engines and as such I have to opportunity to model a vast array of subjects from plantaion lines logging lines, industrial and mining tram lines. If I see a cool subject for modeling, like a railbus pic I saw from a long gone Alaskan RR, I just build it, add my own decals and it becomes part of my roster. For me the whole idea of restricting myself to ONLY one RR, ONLY one set specific roster of allowable engines and stock I'd get so bored I'd bail on the hobby.
2. "Rivet counting is bad!"
It is when the riveteer insists on telling you why everything you are doing is an insult to his POV on the hobby, and I'm not talking about merely using a 4-4-0 to pull a streamliner car...I'm talking about the guy that gets upset becuase your brake cylinders look out of proportion to the prototype or are not quite in the correct place. Insistance on belevability is one thing but when that insistance borders on obsession it is bad. I've learned to laugh at these guys now, I just say "Move along small change" When I build, my goal is to build a belevable model, not a 100% accurate to the last nut model, why? highy accurate and hightly detailed models break highly easily and are often highly unreliable due to highy finicky drivetrains. So I build robust models with a good degree of detail but not to where they are so delicate that you need to handle it like a Fabrege egg.
3. "Modeler's License"
This is the Freelancers rallying cry. As I stated above, this gives me the opportunity to model a wide spectrum of stock, structures and details. I kitbash, ALOT! Like Rumplestiltskin I like spinning straw into gold, namely using a wide range of parts and just "have at it"! The end results are unique, yet beleivable within the narrow gauge realm, theres a prototype for everything is the freelancers creed, everything I've modeled has been based on something I've seen in either person or in old pics. The resulting models are similar, but not exact, to the proto, this is done for either limits due to construction or material constraints, or designers choice. No one has so far said, "thats just plain unnatural!" but I'm working hard on that...
Here are some examples of my work, are they believable? are they reasonably accurate? yet all are freelanced, based on some old photo or other source, except one.
Now if for what ever reason someone does NOT like these, then too bad! and dont worry about it as none of them are on your layout now, are they....hehehhe
SpaceMouse wrote:I think you are taking my statement a tad seriously. In fact, I've learned to walk away from what I assume to be idiotic behavior. On the other hand, if a person asks for help, I might go the extra mile to convince them to expand their thinking. If they choose another path, once again I walk away. Perhaps the "slap upside the head" was humor in poor taste.
Perhaps the "slap upside the head" was humor in poor taste.
I was aiming more at those folks who really ARE serious in that same regard. Soory I wasn't more clear about that.
Dave,
I applaud your effort in trying to open up some eyes with what can stunt modeling growth. I'm not a teacher (as I'm sure this is the frustration they feel as they are trying to educate or young ones) but you can't touch them all. Unless a person is ready to expand their knowledge and modeling style, telling them about researching to be more prototypically accurate, not mixing eras when it comes to equipment, or etc., will fall upon deaf ears. Like it or not, it is their layout, it is their property, and ulitmately, it is their money. I think that Brunton's earlier post about him running an ACL passenger train in his layout to please his wife, illustrates the basic nature of this hobby: personal enjoyment. Enjoyment is subjective because as much as a lot of people see "rivet counting" as a bad thing, for some it is a method for personal enjoyment as well. Some people like steam engines and modern freight as well, what's the problem with enjoying running both? Do we really need to just choose one style? Again, I applaud your efforts, but for some modelers, just running a train around an oval is enough for them to enjoy at this time. Hopefully you (and others with experience) will still be around when the time comes for the "newbies" to truly focus. Hopefully you can walk them through the process of being more "prototypical" and teach them the other side of enjoyment from this hobby. All we can ask, and I'm summing up your original post, is to keep an open mind when it comes to this hobby and don't let others discourage you from learning more.
BRAKIE wrote:Chip,Cut yourself some slack..You have a williness to learn and should go far.I seen that in some of your topics and replies.
I am not particularly self-deprecating. However, I know my knowledge of model railroading has limits. It's one of those "the more you know" clichés.
On the other hand, I can recall several instances where people were ready to slap me upside the head--particularly when I was trying to design a layout and thought the yard ladder was the yard lead. People would make comments and I would screw up the redesign. I give the people who stuck it out with me a lot of credit, I got a good design because I listened to what they had to say and let go of my sense of "rightness." It was about a month later I saw that a drawing I based my assumptions on was abbreviated, and it was assumed that you knew what a yard lead was, even though it was not pictured. Suddenly my layout made sense--and by then I had it built.