UP puts screws to model railroad companies

[Anonymous]

Interesting problem. We've had similar difficulties over here in the UK with the new privatised train operators. Many of them would not allow decal companies to produce "their" decals, but they would allow Hornby et al to use their logos and paint schemes on RTR models. Apparently this is because they would have no control over the use of their logos if they were produced as decals, which could supposedly reflect badly on them. However, this point was made in many a letter to magazines over here, if model train enthusiasts are forced to create their own decals (this was before the availability of decal paper that would go in a normal printer), the results may not be very good. Surely the company would rather see decent renditions of their logo instead of a selection of hand-painted versions of varying quality?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Does this mean they'll stop making UP models??!!!!!

We can only hope!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bruce22

American corporate GREED what else would you expect !!!! It's time that all American's reassessed their values.

bruce22: There's no sense in isolating on Americans in your rant...there's lots of the SAME kind of "corporate greed" , if that's what this is, up here in Canada...AND in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Australasia...everywhere that there are corporations of any kind.
If you must jump up and down (and flap both left wings), at the evils of corporations, why not at least be grown up enough to be Global in your accusations ?

I think this UP thing may be more a matter of bureaucracy gone wild, and corporate legal departments sucking up to their CFO's, and trying to reinforce the sheer necessity of their anal-retentive and miserable bottom-feeding existences.
A politically-incorrect Merry Christmas to All,
Mike

[dehusman]

The license fee is NOT 5%.

Its either 3% of UP stuff or 1/2% of all sales. Its also based on wholesale prices. The example was give of $5 on a $100 locomotive. That was wrong. The wholsale price on a locomotive is less than $100. I pick $75. 3% of $75 is $2.25. So the fee on a $100 (retail )/$75 (wholesale) locomotive is only $2.25. If you buy it in a hobby shop, you'll proably pay twice that in sales tax.

Dave H.

Dave H.

[AltonFan]

I have heard that this matter has already been before a judge, and UP got their clock cleaned. Apparently some years ago, a number of railroads ceded usage of their heralds to the AAR, who licensed them "in perpetuity" for hobby use. According to what I heard, the judge basically told UP that unless they wanted to go into the model train business, the hobby industry was not hurting them by using their logos. I am also told that one of the eastern railroads, who had representatives in attendence at the hearing, up and left. I understand UP has filed an appeal.

My informant also thinks that up may drop the matter when their directors realize that they have thus far spent something like $3 million in persuit of about $300,000.

I'll try to hunt down some documentation on this when I can...

[Anonymous]

Was the Court in Wyoming?

I ask becasue that is a common sense ruling. Wyoming seems to be about the only place those are made any more.

(But I am from Wyoming so I may be sligtly biased[8D][8D][8D])

[bruce22]

robmik got u thinking tho.

[FJ and G]

AltonFan,

Yes, pls try to find your source. If that is true, UP, would owe a lot of money to model train companies and others it billed.

[FJ and G]

It appears that UP has lost it's bid to register the logos of "fallen Flag" railroads SP and D&RGW with possible others to follow. This just off of the US patent offices site: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76479581 This says under Current Status: "An office action making FINAL a refusal to register the mark has been mailed" The same is said for the D&RGW logo. The following is a list of serial numbers for the other railroads UP has swallowed up: D&RGW-76479578, CNW-76479575, SSW-76479576, T&P-76479582, MP-76479585, MKT (Katy)-76479699.


Above info provided by another model railroader.

[Anonymous]

Does UP have a right to protect it's company logo? Yeah, sure it does. My question is, why the sudden outcry about protecting it's trademark NOW? Hobby manufacturers have been recreating UP's prototypes for ages, and now UP decides it wants in on the cash flow? Greed rears it's ugly face yet again. What's going to happen if all of the railroads decide to follow suit? This is pathetic. I think the brass at UP are corporate donkeys.

[vsmith]

Whatever happened to the days when Santa Fe actively pursued Lionel to produce a Warbonnet Super Chief F9 back in the 50's? How far we have fallen...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Whatever happened to the days when Santa Fe actively pursued Lionel to produce a Warbonnet Super Chief F9 back in the 50's? How far we have fallen...

AMEN!!!

[BNSFNUT]

This came up as an news item on CBS news 12/18/03.
It was an interesting story complete with a UP rep trying to explain it.
It mention that they wanted fees for the railroads that they have taken over to.
A freind called me after the news was over. He is not a model railroader but knows that I am. His reaction was "corperate greed is even attacking model trains whats next mom and apple pie?"
I wonder how many other non modelers had the same reaction, this could be a bad PR case for the UP.

[AltonFan]

Forget the PR - my sources tell me UP has spent $3 million to recover $300,000!

Someone's priorities are out of order...

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AltonFan

Forget the PR - my sources tell me UP has spent $3 million to recover $300,000!

Someone's priorities are out of order...

So its not about the money, its all about Control?

That wouldnt surprise me.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFNUT

This came up as an news item on CBS news 12/18/03.
It was an interesting story complete with a UP rep trying to explain it.
It mention that they wanted fees for the railroads that they have taken over to.
A freind called me after the news was over. He is not a model railroader but knows that I am. His reaction was "corperate greed is even attacking model trains whats next mom and apple pie?"
I wonder how many other non modelers had the same reaction, this could be a bad PR case for the UP.

If Mom and Apple Pie were part of the corporate logo, then they'd be sueing everyone that had a Mom and/or Apple Pie or ever used either without their written permission.

Shakespeare said it best , "First off, we kill all the lawyers..."

[Anonymous]

UP/logo/fees
Granted,UP does own the logo and name,but after all these years could it not be considered moot? They failed to respond when they should have years ago. In the end, a PR bomb blast and corporate greed at its finest.
Geepnine(Mitchellville,Iowa)

[Anonymous]

I don't like how UP tries to make every extra buck they can, lets just face it the only reason they have a steam program is to make money, I saw on their website their building a new headquarter building, I wonder where they got the money to do that? Remember when last year UP arrested that railfan just for taking pictures of trains?

[Anonymous]

It never ceases to amaze me that people want companies to operate at charitable levels only. Of course we want to see UP make money. Look at AMTRAK struggling, and other lines that have passed and will be gone forever. If they had stuck to their guns, or found alternative income, we would have a strong rail system, modernized and healthy. Instead of needing to bail out defunct airlines, cut passenger rail services, and subsidize huge highway projects as alternative transportation.

Closer to home... UP is an American Icon. They cannot infringe free speech. Technically, our "hobby" is art. All Americana in art is fair game. We are modeling small history markers, small "pictures" of America. That makes me wonder if they really can hold an enforcable copyright to the same litmus test as newer "products," and companies. This is not a t-shirt manufacturer selling profitable shirts only because they say "pepsi." We don't buy the loco just for the name, but more for where it runs and what we want to capture in our art. Just imagine a collection of Americana, Icons and all, placed in a mosaic or diorama. Each manufacturer couldn't step in and sue the artist because their bottle, can, or old road sign is in the artwork.

The unfortunate fact is that they are fighting so deliberately. This could be a bad sign for railroading as an industry. If this is where they see the fight, against their loyal supporters that vote legislation to save companies like theirs when times are tough and they need government and public support... then maybe there is a more ominous issue behind it.

Why wait all of these years, then raise such a stink? As railfans, we would have paid a small royalty to have their logo, just as we do with other products on our layouts that we don't even think of. But 5% is a slap in the face. Moderation would have been a wiser path for UP. Their PR people need to be flogged for allowing this catastrophe.

What a shame...

[Anonymous]

I brought this up in a posting some months ago, and at that time, probably half or better of the modelrailroaders that post on this forum felt it was no big deal. Wellllll, now all of a sudden, it is. UP's Public Relations People, need to be made aware of just how we feel, and that needs to be extended all the way up the line to the shareholders and their "Board of Directors". If the "MR Community" doesn't start a writing campaign to stop this, we'll all be paying a whole lot more for our hobby down the line[:(!][:(!][banghead][soapbox]

[Anonymous]

Where's a good place to write too. Got an address? [:)]

[Anonymous]

I think that this move will prove to be a bad one from a public relations point of view. It certainly leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth as regards UP. Its one thing to go after someone who's abusing your logo or violating your copyright in order to cause harm; but model railroaders love the railroads they model. UP should be flattered.

But follow the money: I have already seen an ad for a certain locomotive that was $150.00 or $155.00 for the UP version. And if this move generates any cash at all for UPl, how long will it be before other railroads follow suit? Pretty soon all our cars and locomotives will come undecorated.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

I Remember when last year UP arrested that railfan just for taking pictures of trains?

Is this really true? How disgusting if it is.[xx(]

Boy, I am glad I'm a Santa Fe Super Chief fan. I assure you that I will never have a UP on my layout, unless they change their greedy attitude towards the model railroad industry.

And 3 million bucks to collect 300K? What idiots!

Cindy

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DonCameron
[ Pretty soon all our cars and locomotives will come undecorated.

[:I] and we all stop knitpicking wich Railroad-company is good [:D] and what company is bad [V] and get back to only doing freelanced layouts [bow]

and how about the rights of architects and engineers that designed
the buildings, bridges, modelcars we put next to our [:o)] freelanced [:o)] tracks?
and the rights of ALCO, FM, GM, etc.
[2c]NOW: if everyone gives everybody a dime we all get filthy rich![2c]

[:D][:D][:D]remember guys it's a HOBBY[:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MiniCG

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

Remember when last year UP arrested that railfan just for taking pictures of trains?

Is this really true? How disgusting if it is.[xx(]

Boy, I am glad I'm a Santa Fe Super Chief fan. I assure you that I will never have a UP on my layout, unless they change their greedy attitude towards the model railroad industry.

And 3 million bucks to collect 300K? What idiots!

Cindy

Yes sad but true. Some guy (retired from the air-force) in Texas did get arrested. Some UP engineer called the cops, who called the FBI, who searched the guys car, took all RR related things and made the guy sign that he would never railfan at the location again. As unreal as it sounds it's true (this was post 9/11, many railfans have been stopped by cops since then but never in this manner). A even UP exec said that railfanning was suspicious! While China is letting you railfan you can't here in the US! I hope UP get's bought by somone else

[Anonymous]

It seems that the UP is going off the wrong end. Let's hope this doesn't give EMD or GE any ideas. **sigh**, whatever happened to the monster loco loving railroad absorbing UP I used to love?

[Anonymous]

This topic seems to have brought out a bunch of irate individuals! Whatever I say I know that some of you will pat me on the back and the rest will roast me over an open fire, preferably 'til I'm nothing but dust !! As I see it ( and I've got to tell you that I'm no lawyer) the Union Pacific has every right to do what they are doing. It doesn't even make a difference whether they are right or wrong. It doesn't make a difference whether they are trying to gouge the public or not. It doesn't make a difference if they are trying to make a statement or not. It doesn't even make a difference about the issue of control. But here in the U.S. of A. they do have the right to do what they are doing. I agree whole-heartedly with those of you who think this is a pile of ka-ka!! The more important thought is this-----------------I haven't seen anywhere that anyone is holding a gun at any person's head making them buy anything with a UP symbol on it!!!!! The way I see it, if someone doesn't want to pay the price, then-------------. Some modelers can afford the price increase while others won't be able to. And that will be a pitty. We modelers will take just so much abuse before we'll stop buying products with UP's logo on it. And then that certain railroad will just drop off the face of the earth. Now, wouldn't that be a delight.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, Paul M. you have hit the nail right on the head!

So here's to you Paul:

If you're gonna cry,
Then just don't buy.

No more UP models for you, so sad,
More for us now, UPer's are glad.

Revenue is revenue,
I know you'd want it too.

So realign your ethics with the situation,
Thank you America, a capitalist civilization.



DOG

[Anonymous]

All this stuff is starting to get into the internet "urban legend" realm.

People being arrested for taking pictures (if you read the story posted above closely you'll see that the FBI that was involved, it wasn't the UP by itself).

The UP spending $3 million to get $300,000 ($3M would be the equivalent of 60 workers spending all year doing nothing but administering several hundred minor contracts. I don't think so. It probably involves the one time cost of registering all the logos FOREVER to get $300,00 a year FOREVER).

All the logos are fallen flags (you guys ought to actually look at some trains, there are thousands of cars, buildings, signs, etc out ther with those "fallen flag" logos, reporting marks, etc on them in active service, those logos are STILL IN USE, so you are saying that the UP doesn't have the right to register a logo they are currently using?)

There are lots of ways this program isn't a good one, but all of the above reasons are malarkey.

Smith.

[Anonymous]

This will, I suspect, backfire rather spectacularly. Not only due to the PR aspect, but also I suspect that newbie modellers will avoid the UP due to the increased costs.

As far as the stories of railfans being hassled are concerned, these are worrying. There seems to be increasing paranoia amongst official bodies which is slowly eroding the rights and freedoms that we should enjoy. It's not that bad over here in the UK yet - though the editor of Model Rail magazine was "moved on" by a security guard for photographing a rail yard near an airport last year. Hopefully not an indication of things to come.

I'm amazed that nobody seems to have considered that railfans are ideally placed to report suspicious activity and could become a very useful counter-terror tool. Think about it. Railfans know their local area well, know the usual traffic flows, etc, and will notice anything out of the ordinary.