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Why long drill tracks

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Posted by jimrice4449 on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:29 PM
Most of this (highly informative) discusion is concerned w/ breaking up trains but a long lead is also usefull in building them.   Typically inbound trains are switched out at one end of a yard (flat or hump) and outbounds at the other.   To build an out bound the switcher grabs the block for the first setout, doubles over for the next and so on.  Having a long enough lead simplifies the process.   Of course, given the improbability of shoving 30 plus cuts of cars through facing point switches on a MRR makes this kind of accademic for MRR purposes.
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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:21 PM

 Dave-the-Train wrote:
For DCC we just have to make sure that the DS doesn't nod off when we have pulled a long cut out onto the Main to classify it.
  That's what yard limits are for, takes the DS out of the equation.  The switcher can enter the main whenever it wants and just has to clear first class trains.

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Posted by R. T. POTEET on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:50 PM

This is model railroading, essentially an exercise in illusion.  We make a drill track long enough so observers at trackside will say, "My gosh!  Will you look at the length of that drill track!!!"

Actually, a drill track need not be any longer than the length of cars you are going to drill.  Going to drill ten cars and your locomotive - make your drill track ten cars and a locomotive long!!!

On the club layout in Massachusetts the drill track would handle a locomotive and about thirty-five forty foot cars.  During open houses they would put an end-of-track barrier about fifteen cars into the track; this increased operational interest for viewers at trackside because it now took three moves to accomplish what previously could have been done in one.

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Posted by Dave-the-Train on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:52 AM
 dehusman wrote:

 Dave-the-Train wrote:
For DCC we just have to make sure that the DS doesn't nod off when we have pulled a long cut out onto the Main to classify it.
  That's what yard limits are for, takes the DS out of the equation.  The switcher can enter the main whenever it wants and just has to clear first class trains.

Dave H.

Yes, certainly... we were looking at using the Main as a drill track for switching though...

Also I'm aware that the Main can be included in Yard Limits if the RR chooses to put that in its rules.  I believe that one RR classes all its tracks as yard limits..?  Maybe a Shortline or a Terminal RR some place?

Got to have something to keep the DS awake! Laugh [(-D]

 

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Posted by rogertra on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 2:35 AM

Having a yard lead, or a "drill track", is another one of those model rairoadisms purportraited by writers of model railroad magazines.

The vast, yes vast majority of real railroad yards do NOT have a yard lead.  By "yard" I use the railroad definition of a yard which is place named as such in the time-table.  They are not all 30 track yards, many of them are way smaller.

Don't believe me?

Go check it out yourselves.  Get a time time-table, read down the list of stations and look at those marked "yard".  Then, either visit these places or somehow get hold of the track plan and you'll see most of them have no yard lead.

However, a yard lead is helpful on a model railroad because we usually run more trains than the real railroads do.  We also usually operate to a fast time ratio.  Therefore, our yard operators need the yard lead so that they don't block the main line.  Blocking the main line to switch the yard isn't a problem for the prototype if you're only running two, three or four trains per day.  Which is why most real yards do not have leads.

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Posted by Hudson on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:56 AM

I guess the long and short of it is that although a "yard lead/ drill track" isn't necessarily prototypical it allows more prototypical operations given the constraints of a typical model railroad.

 

???

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:16 AM
 Hudson wrote:

I guess the long and short of it is that although a "yard lead/ drill track" isn't necessarily prototypical it allows more prototypical operations given the constraints of a typical model railroad.???

That would be my take. I was recently talking to a guy who had an absolutely great 4 x 8 layout. No doubt you've seen pictures of it. It was set up with a short lead.

This worked fine when he was by himself, but eventually he got into an operations group. When it was his turn to host the group, he found that the person running the through freight had to wait while the switching was being done. There was nothing the switcher could do in the length of time it took the train to make one circuit.

#1 of the Ten Commandments of Yard Design says, "Thou shalt no foul the main."  

 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:21 AM
 rogertra wrote:

Having a yard lead, or a "drill track", is another one of those model rairoadisms purportraited by writers of model railroad magazines.

The vast, yes vast majority of real railroad yards do NOT have a yard lead.  By "yard" I use the railroad definition of a yard which is place named as such in the time-table.  They are not all 30 track yards, many of them are way smaller.

Don't believe me?

Go check it out yourselves.  Get a time time-table, read down the list of stations and look at those marked "yard".  Then, either visit these places or somehow get hold of the track plan and you'll see most of them have no yard lead.

However, a yard lead is helpful on a model railroad because we usually run more trains than the real railroads do.  We also usually operate to a fast time ratio.  Therefore, our yard operators need the yard lead so that they don't block the main line.  Blocking the main line to switch the yard isn't a problem for the prototype if you're only running two, three or four trains per day.  Which is why most real yards do not have leads.

Roger,First a major terminal can have 60-70 or more trains to terminate or originate in 24 hours.A Small yard may have several.There is no real "yard lead" because any YARD TRACK can be switch including the A/D tracks.Yes the A/D track is switch.

As far as number of trains ran that depends on the division..NS runs 40-60 trains a day on the Sandusky line here in Bucyrus.Go to Fostoria(Oh) and you can see 80-100 trains in a 24 hour period.

As far as yard limits that can vary and is not a true indicator of a yard because a "yard limit" can start miles from the yard or can be use for a major junction especially if there is inter-division interchange tracks.A "yard limit" can also be used for a section of track where no yard is present.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:26 AM
Chip said:1 of the Ten Commandments of Yard Design says, "Thou shalt no foul the main."  

Chip,Don't even get me started on those 10 BS yard design commandments.Dead [xx(]

That doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:40 AM

Dave said: The various comments on switching out onto the main and/or multiple switches to reach buried cars are interesting.  Yes these are a "nuisance"... but they are one of the "interesting" aspects of operations... if we can we switch cars early so that they don't get buried.

======================================================================

Sadly the majority of modelers is clueless when it comes to switching cars.They "cherry pick" cars instead of classifying cars.They think I need CSX 345900 and they fish that one car out then they think I need CR 568324 and they procee to fish that car out..A real crew would never get a train built doing that.

The proper way to classify cars into trains is by pulling the cut and start switching cars by destination.

Put all A cars on track 1,B cars on track 2,C cars on track 3 as you switch..See how easy and quick? Pull each yard track and repeat the process till the yard is classified into trains that is built toward their destination-staging,the other yard,interchange etc..

Now there is "cherry picking" switching but,thats another subject.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 7:56 AM

Nick and Guys,When I was talking about switching 75-100 cars that was in a major terminal that seen 60 or more trains a day and originated the same number.Power was usually 2 SW1200s or SD9s we had no problem kicking cars because several cars would have air for added brakes.For pulling cuts of cars out of the hump bowl for the outbound trains the number of cars we would take varied.Say a train had 187 cars,we would move 60,60,67 in TRAIN ORDER.On the other hand if the train had 90 cars we would make one pull.

The reason behind this is because once the cars are in train order carmen would connect the air hoses and inspect the train and that of course takes time.Then the cabin(caboose) switch crew would add the cabin car/caboose once the blue flag was removed.The  brakeman would connect the cabin air hose to the train and open the air valves..

 

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:00 AM
 BRAKIE wrote:
Chip said:1 of the Ten Commandments of Yard Design says, "Thou shalt no foul the main."  

Chip,Don't even get me started on those 10 BS yard design commandments.Dead [xx(]

That doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.

I've operated layouts with poorly designed yards. They can be very frustrating and can also bottleneck an entire layout. In my experience if a yard can be designed to these 10 rules you will have a much more enjoyable time working the yard in the long run. Granted, for smaller operations all of these rules would not apply.

Brakie, what issues did you have with the 10 BS commandments?

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:18 AM
 BRAKIE wrote:
Chip said:1 of the Ten Commandments of Yard Design says, "Thou shalt no foul the main."  

Chip,Don't even get me started on those 10 BS yard design commandments.Dead [xx(]

That doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.

Brakie,

I'll grant that you have a lot of real world experience. However, it is obvious, that fouling the main when you are operating with someone else, well it is really boring for the one that has to wait. In the real road the switcher would give the main to the through freight. On a small layout, one of the two has wait unless the yard does not foul the main.

If you have another way of solving the problem short playing by yourself--because every so often some one realizes ops as a team sport can be a lot of fun--I'd like to hear it.  

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:23 AM

Simply put,those commandments doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.Those are great for large layouts but,on smaller home layouts they may not feasible in many layout design applications including following prototype LDEs..

So IMHO they are BS commandments and should be called 10 yard design SUGGESTIONS IF APPLICABLE..

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:35 AM
 SpaceMouse wrote:
 BRAKIE wrote:
Chip said:1 of the Ten Commandments of Yard Design says, "Thou shalt no foul the main."  

Chip,Don't even get me started on those 10 BS yard design commandments.Dead [xx(]

That doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.

Brakie,

I'll grant that you have a lot of real world experience. However, it is obvious, that fouling the main when you are operating with someone else, well it is really boring for the one that has to wait. In the real road the switcher would give the main to the through freight. On a small layout, one of the two has wait unless the yard does not foul the main.

If you have another way of solving the problem short playing by yourself--because every so often some one realizes ops as a team sport can be a lot of fun--I'd like to hear it.  

Chip,It is not uncommon at the club to have to wait on a yard track to open before you can yard your train,its not uncommon to have to wait in a siding on 2 opposing trains or perhaps over taken by a superior train.Running a local at the club can take up to 2 hours depending on work load and the number of trains you need to wait on and yet this is the most coveted train on the layout!

So,you see many enjoy operating like the prototype and a little wait adds realism of operation.

Of course at first a lot of the new members was impatient having to wait several minutes but,they have learn to sit back and enjoy operation to its fullest.

Larry

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:43 AM

A large club layout was not the situation. I was talking about a small layout where waiting means only one person can play.

I've spent my time in the hole.

But on a large layout, the whole layout doesn't shut down to allow an industrial switcher to do its job.  

Chip

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:25 AM

Chip,As I stated earlier there are other factors at play to include the size of the layout,following prototype LDEs,modeling a branch line or perhaps a short line.

What many modelers fail to realize is a lot of the "commandments" and "expert" advice may not work in all situations.The faster a modeler realizes that the better off he or she will be.

Larry

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Posted by nbrodar on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 11:25 AM

Larry, 

I am quite familar with the process of switching cars.   There is one MASSIVE difference between when you switched and when I switched...You were probably one of THREE groundmen.  I was all by my lonesome, throwing switching, pulling pins, and tying the tracks down.   I couldn't afford to hold on to 100 cars, and have the engineer pull or shove to me everytime we needed to let one fly.

I've humped and flat switched.  Using managable size chunks, I was able to flat switch a car every minute to minute and a half, once the tracks were set.   Humping, with helpers (our hump had manual switches, now it's an intermodal yard Censored [censored]), one car went over the hill every 20 to 30 seconds.

No "cherry picking" is not the proper way classify cars.  However, if you working a SIT yard "cherry picking" is what you do to dig out the requested cars.  Granted there are smarter ways to go about this then the average MR operator uses.

Nick

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:02 PM
 nbrodar wrote:

Larry, 

I am quite familar with the process of switching cars.   There is one MASSIVE difference between when you switched and when I switched...You were probably one of THREE groundmen.  I was all by my lonesome, throwing switching, pulling pins, and tying the tracks down.   I couldn't afford to hold on to 100 cars, and have the engineer pull or shove to me everytime we needed to let one fly.

I've humped and flat switched.  Using managable size chunks, I was able to flat switch a car every minute to minute and a half, once the tracks were set.   Humping, with helpers (our hump had manual switches, now it's an intermodal yard Censored [censored]), one car went over the hill every 20 to 30 seconds.

No "cherry picking" is not the proper way classify cars.  However, if you working a SIT yard "cherry picking" is what you do to dig out the requested cars.  Granted there are smarter ways to go about this then the average MR operator uses.

Nick

Nick,As I stated there is a time to switch cars by "cherry picking".

Also I was very fortunate to be train by and work with "old school" railroaders that knew railroading in and out and how to get the job done in the quickest and safest manner and I dare say many would bend rules in the process.

98% of the engineers I worked with on the PRR and later PC was old steam locomotive engineers and ALL of them operated the by the seat of their pants and knew how to work a throttleand sander (if needed) to get the most out of a locomotive..When I hired on the C&O under Chessie in 1978 I found few old steam locomotive engineers left..Gone was the old "throttle masters" that could put a locomotive through its paces.The old school brakeman was now conductors that had their own ideas on how to get the work done and as a brakeman I don't think none of them could fully agree on how to get the work done and as a young brakeman I thought the old line PRR conductors was bad about doing things"their"way.

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Posted by Dave-the-Train on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:05 PM

Shock [:O]Shock [:O]Shock [:O]

Come on... let's be nice guys... Big Smile [:D]

Okay Modellers don't know so much about how the real thing works these days... I don't know so much about how you do things in the US when it comes to detail - like i forgot both that you would have no air in the car brakes and that you could have some with air next to the loco until you'd sorted the cars ahead of them...

What would be really good would be if we could seperate out several different things

  • Yes there is a difference between real world and model
  • Time and distance are distorted in the model world so we have to compromise - yard design gets affected by this.
  • Those of us who are lucky enough to get paid (or to have got paid) to play with the big toys have insights and knowledge of working practices that most people can't even get access to - e.g. Nick's comment about crews liking to use hand signals because they can't be listened in on - I know that feeling... I also deliberately use recorded phone lines when I want to cover my tail or drop a deserving person/manager in the poo.
  • Instead of "right and wrong" it would be good if we could provide illustrations that people can find their own way of achieving.
  • One plays at a time or big layout opportunity aren't going to meet.  Both can compromise.  There is a degree to which knowledge - or fore knowledge of what goes on might help out the small layout builder in particular - For example, he may want to build the model to look right but, if that means that he doesn't have a drill track that is going to create a huge problem of "one player at a time" later.  A solution I would suggest is to provide a kick back road opposite all the rest of the yard switches for a line alongside a factory.  Officially this is the factory service siding... unofficially it gets used as the drill track and the Main gets left clear.  Whether you provide a loading dock, discharge pipes or whatever and whether they are in use or not (maybe the doorways are bricked up) is up to each modeller.  It is also possible for most of this track to be off scene along one side of the ladder of switches going into/out of a staging yard off scene - but probably a dead end and not linked to the ladder.
  • It would almost certainly be useful to segregate the discussion by era.  Both Nick and larry are right - in different time frames - talking about them wthout distinction will only confuse modellers.  I suspect that if we had a steam era switching man here he would be telling us we don't have a clue and that it would be done another way again.  one thing with steam was the difference in reversing a loco.  Even with a power reverser this took more time than a diesel.  Coal and water had to be used wisely in different ways from diesel fuel.  I suspect that getting the power down was different as well.  Someone has noted that some big yards used Mallets...
  • There are several possible segregatiions of yards by size, type purpose and so on. 
  • The easiest thing is probably to start each post with a note on what sort of era/size of yard/purpose/motive power we are talking about.  this may be prosaic but it might also save us from getting at crossed purpose

 I find this thread both extremely interesting and informative.  Maybe with some careful nurturing we can develop it as long as or longer than the cafe threads...

have a nice day all! Cool [8D]

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:24 PM

I for one love hearing real train men "discuss" their differences. I like it better when it translates to useful info in designing a layout.

If there's any smoke left, count on me to fan the--uh bad analogy.  

Chip

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:34 PM

 BRAKIE wrote:
So IMHO they are BS commandments and should be called 10 yard design SUGGESTIONS IF APPLICABLE..

AGREED.

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:41 PM
 SpaceMouse wrote:
I for one love hearing real train men "discuss" their differences. I like it better when it translates to useful info in designing a layout.

If there's any smoke left, count on me to fan the--uh bad analogy.  

 7 years ago I got the privledge of a cab ride on the Algoma Central in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario. This was back when they were running FP9's. The cab ride was for about the last 100 miles of the trip to Hearst, ON. The most memorable part was listening to an Engineer of a freight screaming over the radio at the yardman. Apparently when the yardman made up his train, he left all the cars that were to be dropped off intermixed in the train instead of putting all the set-outs up front for easy switching. Quite the .... ahem..... "discussion".

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:49 PM
 el-capitan wrote:

 BRAKIE wrote:
So IMHO they are BS commandments and should be called 10 yard design SUGGESTIONS IF APPLICABLE..

AGREED.

But at least they are good suggestions.

(And if you don't know a hole from a porcupine, it's better than nothing.)

Chip

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:52 PM
 SpaceMouse wrote:
 el-capitan wrote:

 BRAKIE wrote:
So IMHO they are BS commandments and should be called 10 yard design SUGGESTIONS IF APPLICABLE..

AGREED.

But at least they are good suggestions.

(And if you don't know a hole from a porcupine, it's better than nothing.)

Yes, they are all good suggestions. But when you use the term "commandments" it suggests that you must have everything on this list or you have a poorly designed yard. One list cannot be applied to every yard in every situation.

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 12:58 PM

So I should write Craig Biesler and suggest he change the name to:

The 10 Strong Suggestions to Yard Design?

Chip

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Posted by el-capitan on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:17 PM
 SpaceMouse wrote:

So I should write Craig Biesler and suggest he change the name to:

The 10 Strong Suggestions to Yard Design?

I would say: "10 things some people use in designing yards when they have enough room while others think that they are BS"

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:30 PM

You think that it would be easier to have TWO A/D tracks. That way the yard can handle more faster both Outbound and Inbound. You already have the length, the only issue would be two extra switches and about 3-4 inches more side room.

Im thinking that if the A/D is train length, my drill can be half that so I can put a train away in two bites. Or deploy a train by simply assembling two cuts off a pair of yard tracks. For that to work the drill needs to be as long as the longest yard track.

I had a light bulb the other day, having the roundhouse, caboose tracks etc on the far end of the A/D tracks so that the road engines and caboose does not have to wade through the drill/yard tracks to get to and from the facility.

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Posted by Dave-the-Train on Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:48 AM

Safety Valve

IF you have an A/D track specifically dedicated you don't need a second  - unless you have a MASSIVE yard with lots of routes disgorging into it.  As we discussed in Stein's thread on yards you can use any track to arrive or depart.  If you choose to nominate an A/D track you can always get a second by arranging your workings so that any other track that is long enough will be free when you want to arrive or depart.

Then again you can use the Main as your A/D track... which will block it for a time... you just plan your ops accordingly.

Don't forget that if you switch the train in two cuts you will re-shuffle it in the process - either into different roads or the same road... you can, however, plan to use this to get cars where you want them in the yard/consist.  Local crews are aware when this will happen and plan ahead accordingly.

I love the other post about the Engineer screaming on the radio Big Smile [:D].  Been there!  I'll bet he said "Oh deary me.  this isn't quite the way it should be".

Rather than have a Main blocked or an A/D track I tend to plan my layouts with a passing siding or a thrd main that can double as anA/D track and /or a switching lead/drill track.

I do this because my original research showed me this occuring in steam days and i love the huge amount of flexibility it provides.

Doubling the Main without the extra track being a full Main to be kept clear allows me to run trains through the siding. make meets, overtake, swicth, classify and tie down/lay-over.  I get the same on top of Double track provision with a 3rd Main (slighlty different moves).

I love the ability to bring a train in off the single Main and run it past whatever is on the Main on the "wrong side".

With 3 mains and a big enough staging yard with suitable routes in the switching I can go really crazy and have 3 trains running at dfferent speeds.  I can even have 3 in the same direction instead of 2 and 1.  This drives the UK "purists" nuts Laugh [(-D]

One reason i chose CNW is that they run on the correct side. Mischief [:-,]  I just love people saying that the trains are going the wrong way round.  Childish but FUN! Whistling [:-^]

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Posted by Hudson on Thursday, April 26, 2007 4:11 PM

"Rather than have a Main blocked or an A/D track I tend to plan my layouts with a passing siding or a third main that can double as anA/D track and /or a switching lead/drill track."

 

Can you go into a little more detail on how you do this?

What's the orientation of the track in relation to the yard?

Is it essentially a third track that via operating rules has multiple functions depending on the scenario?

Meaning is it essentially a siding (within yard limits) long enough to accomodate twice your typical consist as well as having direct access to the yard ladder all the while in terms of operation the YM and DS can allocate to each other depending on what's going on?

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