ScottGroff wrote: I have read that the fumes from these types of thinners are dangerous to our health. Now I'm wondering, in the small quantities and bried exposures we experience in mixing paints, thinning them and cleaning brushes (air or otherwise), what is the risk? What health consequences are there?I know the MR magazine always makes the point to use this stuff in well ventilated areas, etc. but I am assuming that is to protect themselves from product liability.Does anyone have accurate information as to exposure levels, length of exposure, health consequences, etc.?
I have read that the fumes from these types of thinners are dangerous to our health. Now I'm wondering, in the small quantities and bried exposures we experience in mixing paints, thinning them and cleaning brushes (air or otherwise), what is the risk? What health consequences are there?
I know the MR magazine always makes the point to use this stuff in well ventilated areas, etc. but I am assuming that is to protect themselves from product liability.
Does anyone have accurate information as to exposure levels, length of exposure, health consequences, etc.?
Those who have been in the hobby for a while should recall the disturbing letter to the editor in MR perhaps 15 years ago, from a gentlemen who indicated he had been a custom painter of railroad models. At the time, according to his doctors, he was dying of acute toxic exposure to certain of the chemicals in the old Floquil paints/thinner. MR made quite a deal about this at the time. As I recall, it wasn't too long after that that Floquil changed their formulae (I think they've done it again since, as well) but it still remained generally hazardous to your health. Severe nerve damage was one of the potential effects of the old stuff. I'm not sure just what the warning labels read today.
Now I'm pretty sure that an occasion few wiffs of the vapors aren't going to doom you but if you do any indoor work, or paint a lot of models, I'd be v-e-r-y careful, even with the new, improved stuff and be sure to wear both gloves and an appropriate respirator. Most hazardous chemicals generally become toxic only after excessive exposure but individual sensitivity can vary a great deal. I'd say be particularly cautious if you have any known sensitivity of certain chemicals/products, or any odd allergies.
CNJ831
Any company manufacturing and marketing a hazardous material takes on this type liability, and is also required by federal law to publish and distribute an MSDS on that product.
Directly form the Testors published MSDS for Dio-Sol, Section IX Special Protection Information:
Respiratory Protection: If exposure exceeds occupational exposure limits (50 ppm for the Light Aromatic Hydrocarbon from Section II) use a NIOSH-approved respirator to prevent overexposure. In accord with 29 CFR 1910.134 use either an atsmophere-supplying respirator or an air purifying respirator with appropriate chemical/mechanical filters.
Ventilation: If the product is used in a confined area, provide sufficient Mechanical (general and/or local exhaust) ventilation to maintain exposure below TLV(s). Heavy solvent vapors should be removed from the lower levels of area, and all ignition sources should be eliminated.
Protective gloves: Solvent resistant gloves are recommended for prolonged contact.
Personal note: when using any model paints, which I normally do in my basement, I have a home made vent booth that hooks up to the dryer duct that is vented outside. I also wear an air purifying respirator, as well as nitrile gloves, during mixing and spraying of the paint.
ScottGroff wrote:I have read that the fumes from these types of thinners are dangerous to our health. Now I'm wondering, in the small quantities and bried exposures we experience in mixing paints, thinning them and cleaning brushes (air or otherwise), what is the risk? What health consequences are there?
We need to add latex gloves to our list of safety equipment.
A couple of woodworking acquaintances of mine have had health problems which their doctors said the tests indicate are the result of a long term build-up of toxins from decades of exposure to solvents.
One buddy explained to me that oils in certain exotic woods as well as chemicals in paints, stains, strippers, rust removers/inhibiters (that we use on our machine tables) that can, individually, be culprits and that, in his case, it was absorption through the skin rather than inhalation of fumes that brought about the build-up.
Switching from enamels to acrylics is something I am seriously considering. In woodworking, I mix my own stains using alcohol diluted dies and, almost exclusively, use shellac as my top coat (also alcohol based)--alcohol is just so much safer than the rest. I wouldn’t mind being able to get rid of everything else.
Crews
Hi,
I doubt if anyone would really answer that question for fear of liability. I do know this, that when I am brush painting in my hobby room (ex bedroom, climate controlled) and leave the room and return, the odor is obvious. I try to keep my jars - especially thinner - covered as much as I can when using them.
One thing I will not do is spray - either can or airbrush - unless I am in the garage with front/back doors open to the outside. One exception was when I sprayed flat white "overspray" on the layout backdrop and I used a solvent approved mask at that time.
I guess the best advice here is to use common sense!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
AntonioFP45 wrote: Testors did change the formula of the Floquil line a few years back to meet with updated government VOC and Haz-Mat standards. I certainly would like to see an MSDS sheet on its composition. However, just my opinion, it's apparently lacquer based, not enamel. http://www.floquil.com/fileshare/color_charts/110000_Floquil%20RR%20(Enamel).pdf
Testors did change the formula of the Floquil line a few years back to meet with updated government VOC and Haz-Mat standards. I certainly would like to see an MSDS sheet on its composition. However, just my opinion, it's apparently lacquer based, not enamel.
http://www.floquil.com/fileshare/color_charts/110000_Floquil%20RR%20(Enamel).pdf
The MSDS I have for DioSol is dated 2005. The formula listed on the MSDS is repeated in my previous post. It's definately still a HAZMAT.
One other difference not mentioned between lacquer thinner and mineral spirits is the evaporation (drying) time. Lacquer thinner evaporates faster.
jrbernier wrote: lacquer thinner - I stopped buy that expensive stuff years ago! Jim
lacquer thinner - I stopped buy that expensive stuff years ago!
Jim
I also use regular laquer thinner and have had good results. I sure beats the heck out of paying ten times more money for Floquil's so-called "special" (aka overpriced) thinner.
According to the Testors website, their "Universal Enamel Thinner" has replaced all sizes of Floquil Diosol and Model Master thinners.
http://www.testors.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=2818
I have tried the alternate Floquil thinner someone mentioned above; it sucks. I tried it, and the paint would not flow on the plastic or primed surface, it beaded. I will use it to clean the airbrush and paint brushes until it is gone, then forget it existed. For the time being, I am using the new red can universal stuff to thin Floquil and Model Master. I have not had a problem with it.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Distilled water when I use Polly Scale. Results have been very good, so far.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
AntonioFP45 wrote: I use mostly acrylics now and utilize solvent based paints for metalizing. After using the above mentioned products for 20+ years, I always recommend using acrylic based paints in scale model work whenever possible.
I use mostly acrylics now and utilize solvent based paints for metalizing. After using the above mentioned products for 20+ years, I always recommend using acrylic based paints in scale model work whenever possible.
Antonio, what do use to thin acrylics? Just curious.
My friend who paints uses Xylene to thin Floquil paint (yes, he has a paint booth), so I tried it, but I really dislike using Xylene and would like to shift over to acrylics and water-based paints.
Gary
Hi!
If you do a lot of painting, I would check out some of the alternatives offered up in previous postings. But if you don't paint all that much, I would stick with the Floquil.
All that being said, Please remember that ALL of the various thinners are very dangerous - either to breathe, to ignite, or to ruin stuff that it touches. Please take this seriously!!!!
Mobilman44 - been in the earl bizzness for 40 years.....................
Railphotog wrote: loathar wrote:Have any of you ever painted a real car with enamel paint? Did you thin your enamel paint with lacquer thinner? (I seriously doubt it) Why would you do this on a model? Enamel paint should be used with enamel reducer.(or the tolulene/xylene)I don't paint real cars, so it doesn't matter to me. I doubt if they even use enamel these days, more modern fast drying high techpaints are used.I use lacquer thinner because it works.
loathar wrote:Have any of you ever painted a real car with enamel paint? Did you thin your enamel paint with lacquer thinner? (I seriously doubt it) Why would you do this on a model? Enamel paint should be used with enamel reducer.(or the tolulene/xylene)
I don't paint real cars, so it doesn't matter to me. I doubt if they even use enamel these days, more modern fast drying high techpaints are used.
I use lacquer thinner because it works.
I was going to stay out of this, but I feel that some additonal info might clear up a few disagreements here.
I teach automotive collision repair and can attest to the fact that Enamel based paint refinishing systems (Single Stage Acrylic Enamel, Single Stage Urethane Enamel, and Enamel Basecoat/Clearcoats) are still used EXTENSIVELY in the United States. These products have undergone "high-tech" changes over the past 2 decades. DuPont, PPG, and BASF are the dominant "top guns" in this arena. Catalyzed Urethanes and Polyurethanes are tough, but quite expensive. Single Stage Polyurethanes Enamels are usually preferred for commercial transportation fleets because of their high durability properties. This is often the choice of rail, trucking, aviation, and marine companies. The prototype Santa Fe F units that were repainted a few years back were refinished in Polyurethane.
Waterborne Enamels are increasing in popularity, but not dominant yet, except in California. GM's Saturns are factory finished in Waterbased enamels.
Lacquer based automotive products are still available but are not as popular as in the past due to inferior durability. An exception would be the House of Kolor lines owned by Valspar which include beautiful quality lacquer based products (enamel as well) used in custom paint refinishing. Very, very expensive.
For the issue of thinning the solvent based Floquil:
I have found that Automotive Paint Lacquer thinner works just fine. The paint cures to a tough, durable finish. Wet sanding and adding multiple colors is a cake walk. The "Mineral spirits lacquer thinner", works in many cases but can be more of a hit or miss shot as far as adhesion and durability.
Metaphorically:
Mineral Spirits = Ford Escort.
Automotive Lacquer Thinner = Ford Boss 302 Mustang.
For those of you that have been using Automotive Enamel reducers in lacquer based paints, that is also a "hit or miss" russian-roulette game that can work, but why risk it? Generally, automotive lacquer thinner is cheaper than automotive enamel reducer.
BTW: Enamel products may be sprayed over freshly cured lacquers, HOWEVER, spraying lacquer material over freshly applied or freshly cured enamels can wind up destroying the enamel finish. Been there done that.
Automotive Lacquer thinners in varying grade qualities are usually sold in 1 gallon, 5 gallon, and 55 gallon containers. Wash lacquer thinner, used to clean spray guns, is cheaper and works well with Floquil and even Scale Coat II.
Guys, Have you all forgotten Scale Coat II Thinner? Also a good product that you can still acquire in 1/2 pint cans. Should be enought for a good number of HO scale paint jobs.
A friend of mine that does a lot of airbrushing uses lacquer thinner.
Dave
Let me try again.
The question was is there a cheaper and more available thinner for Floquil. I gave an answer: Mineral Spirits. I stumbled upon this old thread looking for answers about other thinners and had an answer to give so took the time to write the post and share my experience.
I know what the Floquil paint smells like-- it smells like paste wax and paste wax contains mineral spirits to soften the wax, which led me to try mineral spirits as a thinner and it worked perfectly.
TomDiehl wrote:Wow, your nose is out of whack. Dio-Sol smells nothing like mineral spirits…
My nose is out of whack? You sound like my ex-wife. I am sure you are very proud of your nose, and see that it is accustomed to being upturned, but leave mine out of it because, besides its being “out of whack,” it can also get out of joint. That is, if you respond to one of my posts, do so with respect.
cregil wrote: bogp40 wrote: I had a chemist do a quick analysis of the DioSol and it came back about 80% toululene 10- 15% Xylene plus other. I have tried straight toululene and it works, but will dry very, very fast. It is hard to not get a rough, gravel finish when this happens. You need to apply more paint and shoot much closer to the model than I'm comfortable with.If anyone has found a better substitute I would like to know also.Now, I am referring to the red label stuff:I did not use a chemist, I used my nose. The Floquil paint smells like mineral spirits. I thin Floquil with mineral spirits for spraying and use mineral spirits for clean up. Not being a chemist and reading this thread, I am surprised at my success. Makes me want to try alcohol to see what happens….…gathering Floquil paint, alcohol, pipette…Sorry it took so long, but now that the firefighters have left… Just kidding, but no joy. I’m back to ($1.89 a quart) mineral spirits.Crews
bogp40 wrote: I had a chemist do a quick analysis of the DioSol and it came back about 80% toululene 10- 15% Xylene plus other. I have tried straight toululene and it works, but will dry very, very fast. It is hard to not get a rough, gravel finish when this happens. You need to apply more paint and shoot much closer to the model than I'm comfortable with.If anyone has found a better substitute I would like to know also.
I had a chemist do a quick analysis of the DioSol and it came back about 80% toululene 10- 15% Xylene plus other. I have tried straight toululene and it works, but will dry very, very fast. It is hard to not get a rough, gravel finish when this happens. You need to apply more paint and shoot much closer to the model than I'm comfortable with.
If anyone has found a better substitute I would like to know also.
Now, I am referring to the red label stuff:
I did not use a chemist, I used my nose. The Floquil paint smells like mineral spirits. I thin Floquil with mineral spirits for spraying and use mineral spirits for clean up.
Not being a chemist and reading this thread, I am surprised at my success. Makes me want to try alcohol to see what happens….
…gathering Floquil paint, alcohol, pipette…
Sorry it took so long, but now that the firefighters have left… Just kidding, but no joy. I’m back to ($1.89 a quart) mineral spirits.
Wow, your nose is out of whack. Dio-Sol smells nothing like mineral spirits, but a lot more like lacquer thinner, which is a combination of xylene and toluline.
According to the MSDS on Dio-Sol it's 40-45% VM&P Naphtha, 5-10% Xylene, 1-5% Ethyl Benzene, 5-10% Aromatic Hydrocarbon Solvent, and 40-45% Light Aromatic Hydrocarbon.
Since I'm not painting huge areas with Floquil, a 16 oz can of Dio-Sol lasts me several years. I use it only for thinning the paint to spray, and clean up with lacquer thinner.
All these components come under the warnings of "good ventilation" and "air purifying or air supplying respirator." These can be dangerous chemicals if not used with the proper caution.
I use PPG Shop Line JR505. $17.00 a gallon at your local auto paint supplier.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Funny you should mention it...I did that all the time.
My full size race cars are all painted with single stage enamel. My short track car got banged up pretty often, I spray the straightened panels with the same enamel thinned with laquer thinner. Turned out fine, and it sure dried fast!
On the other hand, one time I painted my road race car with industrial enamel. The label on the paint can said use mineral spirits. Well, we had no mineral spirits, so we used enamel reducer. We missed 2 races, because the paint would not dry! It was 3 weeks before we could put the car back together!
Painted the trailer using the same paint, using the mineral spirits, and it dried in about a half hour.
Moral of the story, be careful using thinners not recommended for the paint.
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
bogp40 wrote:I had a chemist do a quick analysis of the DioSol and it came back about 80% toululene 10- 15% Xylene plus other. I have tried straight toululene and it works, but will dry very, very fast. It is hard to not get a rough, gravel finish when this happens. You need to apply more paint and shoot much closer to the model than I'm comfortable with.If anyone has found a better substitute I would like to know also.
I would use Xylene found in Home Depot or Lowes. Toluene is a suspected carcinogen and I would stay clear of it. Even with Xylene, use a spray box and wear a respirator. These hydrocarbons are not good for you if inhaled. I would be surprised if there will be any organic solvent based paint on the market a few years from now. There are just too many liability issues associated with them.
Steve B.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
reklein wrote:Didn't Floqquil get bought out by Testors a few years back? That may have been when the thinners changed. I have a lot of the old Floquil but not the new stuff and still have a little Dio-sol left.
Floquil was bought out by Testors several years ago, but the formula starting changing long before that. First the EPA, (and I think the FDA both), dictated that all lead had to be removed from all paints. This effected every paint maker in the country/world that sold paint in the US. Some things this caused was loss of shelf life, as lead also served to keep the pigments from coagulating in the bottles over long periods, as well as surface durability. Some older paints such as Scalecoat, lost much of their well touted ability to take damage without chipping or flaking. The next change in Floquil came when they started converting their lacquer based formula over to enamel. This is when the "black" label Floquil became the "red" label paint we have today.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
For the last few years, I found that lacquer thinner works great for thinning Floquil.
Years ago, Floquil colors could be mixed with each other, thinned with their own thinner, and kept, ready to spraying, for years. (Quite a few years ago. I still have some paint in their square bottles.)
In recent years the formulation must have changed as a spray mixture often becomes gummy in just a few weeks or months. I assume they are trying to make the fumes less toxic.
So now I use lacquer thinner and mix only what I will use in a couple days. After spraying, lacquer thinner does a very good job of cleaning the airbrush, followed by spraying a quarter ounce of a 50/50 ammonia - distilled water mix ,then a quarter ounce of straight distilled water.
Floquil's Diosol is a mixture of two common thinners, Xylol, and Toluol (tolulene). These can be had by the gallon at any hardware/paint store for not much more than the price of the pint/half pint.
Either one on its own also will thin floquil, scalecoat I & II, any enamel based paint so you do not have to buy them both and mix your own.
Scalecoat's thinner is also a mixture of the same two main ingredients, although in different ratios.