I've been looking into the maritime exploits of railroading and I have a couple questions may you all could help me out with.
I know that railroads operated car ferries (barge's with rails) on lakes, and they also ran some more shiplike operations on the great lakes, but I can find very few pics and info on the actual docks. I also can't find anything on whether they operated on any salt water areas, like across a large bay or something.
Can you guys help?
I'll look that up! Thanks!
I'm modeling a freelance coastal RR, so stuff like this is a great help!
Hi Phil: In the early 50s my grandfather took me to a dock area in or near West Palm Beach Fl. There was a steam 0-6-0 that was used to work the small freight yard and load cars on and off a ferry boat that went from there to Cuba. The ferry was like one of the ones that sailed on the great lakes. If you check some of the great lakes sights you might find pictures and info on the docks. There were 2 or 3 in Milwaukee that I know of and there is one in Manitawoc Wisc. that is still being used by the S.S. Badger. I have drawings of a great lakes ferry if you need them I could have them copied. I also have several books on the ferry operations. Let me know if you have any other questions. Oh yea, Walthers made a ferry dock a few years back for there barge. I think that they have discontinued it thou.
There were extensive car float services in the New York harbor area. NYC, Erie, Reading & Pennsylvania railroads all had tugs, floats and docks.
When Walthers did their Cornerstone Waterfront series (now out of production), they offered the following items: 933-3067 Pier And Traveling Crane, 933-3066 Municiple Pier Terminal, 933-3068 Car Float Apron, 933-3069 Warehouse No 1, 933-3152 Railroad Carfloat, 933-3153 Railroad Tug Boat, and a few other assessory kits/sets. Walthers also published a book "Railroading Along The Waterfront". You might still be able to find some or all of these items available on the internet somewhere.
There's also a couple of companies that advertise in MR offering 1/87 scale waterline boat kits. A couple of the models are also tugs, somewhat smaller than the Walthers model. Also advertised in MR is a Great Lakes ore ship.
I would definitely recommend trying to track down a copy of the Walthers book, it's got lots of great pictures of waterfront operations from all over the country.
This a shot of part of my small port, I used a smaller (than the Walthers) tug, and used only 2 of the 3 sections of the Wakthers car float:
still a work in progress!
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
This is great stuff guys!
As for the Walthers stuff, it's the wrong scale I think. I model in N scale. Might work for a pattern though!
BTW, Jay, that looks great!
Here as some good reference books:
'New York Harbor Railroads In Color Vols I & II', by Thomas R. Flagg, published by Morning Sun Books, Inc.
'Brooklyn's Waterfront Railways', by Jay Bendersky, published by Weekend Chief Publishing, Inc.
'Where The Rails Meet The Sea', author unknown, publisher unknown
(I've only heard of this one...haven't found a copy).
Follow this link to photos of float bridge ruins on NYC west side (I think this was a B&O facility):
http://michaelminn.net/newyork/index.php?westside_railyard
Follow this link to the Rail-Marine Information Group website:
http://www.trainweb.org/rmig/
Hope this info is useful!
Bruce J.
In MRP2007 they have a article about the Harlem Transfer CO. It's apparently an entire prototype that can fit in a 4'x8'. There is some photos that may be helpful.
Eatern Shore Railroad in Virginia. Check it out. This is a great prototype to use for a model railroad!
http://www.nrhs.com/spot/eastern_shore_rr/
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
In Mackinac City, MI there was a operating ferry up until the mid 80's. The name of it was Chief Wawatam (I'm probably spelling this wrong). It took cars across to St. Ignace in the upper penninsula of MI. I was old enough to remember seeing this in operation. In the mid 80's it was operated by the Detroit and Mackinac RR. Prior to that I think it was operated by NYC or one of it's subsidaries (Michigan Central maybe), but I'm not sure on this. The best part about the chief is that it was a steam ship until the day it was shut down. The last time I was in Mackinac the docks were still there.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Philip,
I'm in the process of doing my dock for HO now...
There's 3 variations of a waterfront plan in "48 Top Not Trackplans" Kalmbach. The nice thing about this plan is it's made from one 4x8 sheet and has 22" curves in some sections.
Iain Rice has a very nice layout that also fits in a space a lil over 4x8. I believe it was in "Small Smart & Pratical Layouts" by Iain Rice
Car Floats and Car Docks were common were small islands needed routine supplies shipped in, or the gap was too big between land masses.
The Chesapeake Bay used Car Floats to supply food, lp, and gas to small islands (Smith Island I believe was one). They also ferried cars across the Bay to the Eastern Shore if I remember correctly. The Chesapeake Bay is a combination of fresh and salt water.
Books on Waterfronts:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/913-103
http://www.amazon.com/Railroading-along-waterfront-Eli-Rantanes/dp/0941952533/ref=sr_1_22/103-1861820-5224631?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176908616&sr=1-22
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567995977/qid%3D976770207/sandiegohistoric
Web info:
http://www.olimpia.com/mer/potomac-div/ClinicsCD/JohnTeichmoeller/WALTCLIN06.pdf
Book on Ore Docks (typical on great lakes)
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/503-135242
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
pcarrel,
See page 96(lower left) of May '07 Model Railroader, LaserKit has ad for NYC Harbor Barge. Also might want to check Model Railroader archives for articles on car floats/barges.
Jon
DigitalGriffin wrote: The Chesapeake Bay used Car Floats to supply food, lp, and gas to small islands (Smith Island I believe was one). They also ferried cars across the Bay to the Eastern Shore if I remember correctly. The Chesapeake Bay is a combination of fresh and salt water.
You remember correctly! Check the link in my prior post. I love the photo of the steam engine aparently heading into the ocean. This is one of the better articles I've seen on car float operations.
Sylvan Scale Models makes an N scale car barge ( http://www.nscalesupply.com/SYL/SYL-N-2066.htm ), but I'm not sure this would be correct for a shortline RR hustling cars across an ocean bay, even if the bay is fairily well protected.
From what I'm seeing, I may want something that sits a bit higher in the water, or am I wrong here?
pcarrell wrote: Sylvan Scale Models makes an N scale car barge ( http://www.nscalesupply.com/SYL/SYL-N-2066.htm ), but I'm not sure this would be correct for a shortline RR hustling cars across an ocean bay, even if the bay is fairily well protected.From what I'm seeing, I may want something that sits a bit higher in the water, or am I wrong here?
That's a pretty good model! Just add a bit to the bottom to raise the height a little and you're golden!
tangerine-jack wrote: pcarrell wrote: Sylvan Scale Models makes an N scale car barge ( http://www.nscalesupply.com/SYL/SYL-N-2066.htm ), but I'm not sure this would be correct for a shortline RR hustling cars across an ocean bay, even if the bay is fairily well protected.From what I'm seeing, I may want something that sits a bit higher in the water, or am I wrong here? That's a pretty good model! Just add a bit to the bottom to raise the height a little and you're golden!
I didn't know if that would be all, but the Chesapeake Bay float looks kind of similar. Thanks!
Any other thoughts anyone?
Dumb question: how in the world did the rails line up between the shore and the barge!? As soon as a train boarded the barge, didn't it sink a little bit, thus the tracks no longer aligned? Or did the barge run aground--but then you have the problem of having to run a giant barge aground with a 1" tolerance for error. I can imagine many ways to solve these problems (none of them easy) but I'm curious how it was actually done.
PC - of course the New Haven had a maritime fleet as well starting with ferry service from Norwalk,Ct to NYC (actually started with the merged predecessor Danbury/Norwalk RR.) Also had a group of car floats to cross New York harbor.
There have been many articles over the years on floats and ferry ops and modeling of same. Many of the larger operations used special built ferry boats for longer distances (such as over the Great Lakes) but most was barge and tug service. Regards, J.R.
Gazoo,
From what I can tell, there was a bridge (or 2) that was on a pivot on the shore side and it had a pocket on the barge that the other end of the bridge fit into. A small crane-like setup lowered the one end of the bridge into place once the barge was secure. An idler car or two was used so that the loco didn't actually enter the bridge or the barge. As each car moved out onto the bridge the barge sank a little, but the bridge moved with it, so it all stayed in alignment. Vice-versa for off-loading.
That's how I understood it.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
pcarrell wrote:I didn't know if that would be all, but the Chesapeake Bay float looks kind of similar. Thanks! Any other thoughts anyone?
It's HO, but this is one they used on the Chesapeake...
http://www.frenchmanriver.com/Frenchman%20River/HO%20Scale/2track.ht
Review and Info:
http://borhs.org/ModelerMag/BO_Modeler_2_2006_JanFeb.pdf
m
GMTRacing wrote: PC - of course the New Haven had a maritime fleet as well starting with ferry service from Norwalk,Ct to NYC (actually started with the merged predecessor Danbury/Norwalk RR.) Also had a group of car floats to cross New York harbor.
See, you'd think I'd know this since I used to live in Fairfield and Bridgeport, huh? I was into other things back then though.
Thats kind of what I'm gathering, but it's sometimes hard to tell because often times the ones that get written about are only the more grandious getups.
pcarrell wrote: Gazoo,An idler car or two was used so that the loco didn't actually enter the bridge or the barge. As each car moved out onto the bridge the barge sank a little, but the bridge moved with it, so it all stayed in alignment. Vice-versa for off-loading.Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
An idler car or two was used so that the loco didn't actually enter the bridge or the barge. As each car moved out onto the bridge the barge sank a little, but the bridge moved with it, so it all stayed in alignment. Vice-versa for off-loading.
Small switchers were sometimes allowed onto the Apron/Floating Bridge Dock. I've seen photos. But this isn't common. (Yes B&O did this)
Gazoo wrote: Dumb question: how in the world did the rails line up between the shore and the barge!? As soon as a train boarded the barge, didn't it sink a little bit, thus the tracks no longer aligned? Or did the barge run aground--but then you have the problem of having to run a giant barge aground with a 1" tolerance for error. I can imagine many ways to solve these problems (none of them easy) but I'm curious how it was actually done.
Dumb questions are the ones not asked.
Read this article carefuly, it explains in detail how this was done.
It's not really that techno difficult, hinges and pins is all it took. Many other carfloats used the same concept.
Here is an excerpt:
The tracks set on the deck must also pivot. This is made possible by a double-holed hinge forming a rail joint in each rail just above the bridge's pivot point. The hinge is bolted to the stub end of each rail in the joint and moves loosely around each bolt, making a pivot point in the line of rail.
As mentioned above, controls along the bridge's railing operate a pump and winches that tighten the barge to the bridge. The single span forming the float bridge sits on top of a steel pontoon on its water side. This watertight pontoon allows the bridge to float, moving up and down on the pivot point at the land end. The pontoon is mostly air-filled, of course, but also contains some water. The pump allows ESHR personnel to vary the water level in the pontoon, changing its floatation and, therefore, the height of the bridge. This allows crews to match the elevation of the float bridge with the height of the carfloat when it docks.
Water level, of course, is dependent upon tides. Tides are not bad on the Little Creek side, but a fully-loaded carfloat cannot be docked at the Cape Charles float bridge during extremely low tides. At the water end of the float bridge are the four pins, which rest upon a manual locking mechanism and slide through two yellow-painted, greased slots. A third slot on the carfloat is the receptacle they lock into.
Follow this link for a diagram and explanation of how a carfloat is attached to the bridge for loading/unloading and also some great photos of the float bridges at Greenville yard, Jersey City, NJ:
http://members.aol.com/bedt14/Floatbridge.html
I'm building an HO scale model based on this prototype. I'll post photos soon.
It's going to take me weeks to sort through all of this great info!
Thanks guys!