Modeling some abandoned track?

[shawnee]

This brings me to a related question...how often do railroad ties get replaced?  How often do tracks typically get re-ballasted?  I recall from my youth walking home along the railroad line, the ties, yes, there were bunches of them tossed to the side in small heaps. 

Are there any hobby manufacturers who make railroad ties alone, for scenic purposes? I guess I could take my old brass rail and rip off the rail itself, but the results might not be impressive. or I could fabricate them from plastic or wood.

[Anonymous]

Campbell makes ties, there maybe others. You could get stripwood the correct thickness and cut them to size, put them in a ziploc bag with india ink and some alcohhol, leave them for a day, let them dry and glue into stacks. New ties are almost black. mike h.

[Dave-the-Train]

AAAARGH!

 Maintenance depends on -

• original materials
• replacement materials
• revenue
• weight of traffic
• line speed
• density/frequency of traffic
• policy decisions
• statutory requirements
• compensation claims / risk
• labour costs
• plant costs
• environment
• drainage or lack of
• local soil... may wash in or wash out from under.
• plus...

 Unless you are modelling a specific time and/or place you need to figure out what sort of recent history you want your line to have had ... and where the Board think/hope they are going.  This will depend on era and location.  Sometime things like Nuclear power plants and/or military bases throw an element into the equation.  Also some states have intervened to keep RR active and maintained.  This is down to your preferance and research.

I posted on the old forum about track maintenance - if you can dig it up you might post the links -

Maintenace-

• periodic examination - from daily to whenever
• scratch and sniff
• tighten and adjust - drive in loose spikes and tighten fishplate bolts
• replace ties
• "fettle" ballast - make sure that it is draining and where it should be.
• replace rail(s)
• turn rails on curves
• draw back rails and re-set spaces at joints - this happens more at the foot of heavy grades where train braking shoves the rail down hill over time but also because of movement cause by rail heating or cooling in summer/winter.  If gaps are not maintained rail can kick out sideways - which will derail a train.
• lift and line (i.e. get it level and pointing where it should)
• hand tamp ballast - locally or as part of lifting and lining
• machine tamp... can be satnav guided these days.
• top up ballast
• work in top-up ballast
• clean ballast - mostly by machine now
• renew ballast - pull out old and replace
• renew ties - individually or in strips
• renew rail - in lengths or over distance
• renew track - may include all 3 main elements
• deep dig - strip out everythng down to bedrock or fill formation and start with some sort of fibre mat these days... then build up in layers as specified by the engineers for the location (don't tip the stone in in the wrong order you'll only have to pull it all back out again... This will often include new drains.  Almost last will be new track on top... panels later switched to ribbon rail.  Hope the job gets done on time

 ... and everyday train crews will report lumps and bumps and other bad oatches that need looking at.  There are also ultrasonic testing trains that find weak spots in rail resulting in the length being replaced or a chunk of ribbon rail being cut out and a fresh bit welded in.

Does that answer your question?

[GAPPLEG]

Well kinda by accident I produced an abandoned right of way. When I changed some trackage I left the ballasted area alone.

[shawnee]

Geesh, that's some maintenance.  Guess I'll just go and crawl into a fetal position for a while while I ponder it.    Seriously, great info, thanks.  I guess it's true what they say, it's cheaper to send freight by train vs. highway, but trains are much more capital-intensive in an ongoing sense.  Beginning to understand here why there are so many abandonments...

Well, gives me ever more reason to run my MOW units on my layout, and have them hang out on the sidings.

I'm curious about "ballast cleaning" though...please forgive my ongoing ignorance of matters prototype, but why do they need to clean the ballast?  Never would have occurred to me to clean the rock.

[Dave-the-Train]

Before explaining cleaning...

It occurs to me that ties can split end to end... so we do get a small number of "broken" ties... but busted along usually rather than across... or broken along first before across.  Also in US practice you have "tie cutters"... don't know for sure but i suspect that they cut old ties to make them easier to pull out... less clearance needed and a half tie is half the weight for lifting.

As far as scenic ties... I would tend to use left over ties and bits of rail that occur in ordinary construction - there's always some.  Then, price for price, I'd reckon that I might just as well get an extra length of ME weathered rail track and be sure that my scenic ties were the same basic size and colour as the track in use rather than try to mess about colour matching and (worse) size matching.  But "really old" ties or a car load of new ties could be created from one of the suppliers' bulk packs.

When stacking new ties there were specified patterns at one time.  Two ties, then layers of ties at right angles to the first two for a number of levels, two more first way round then levels then just one and one level.  top level would therefore be at an angle to run rain off.  There were variations on this.

Okay.  Ballast Cleaning.

What does ballast do?  i.e. what's it's purpose?

• locating the track by height
• locating the track transversely
• locating the track longitudinally
• draining the track - so that the ties don't rot... so fast...
• resisting the tendency of the track to be shoved out under load - forwards - sideways and backwards.  (Think about it - put yourself on a rug on a polished floor and lean different directions - the rug will try to skid out from beneath you... that's the track on a blad planet - of rock.
• absorbing the impact of rolling wheels with loads on them.  This helps the rail and ties wear less.  Both id too stiff can be crushed or hammered out.
• So there is an element of flex in ballast ... again, try walking on ice or compacted snow... your foot will tend to slip.  But on softer snow you foot will dig in slightly and gain something (a slight angle) to push off against.  Rolling wheels on locos use this... also - the rail drops fractionally in front of the wheels.  You will not normally see this.  But... pumping track and bad joints are the big-bad examples that RR do not want to have.

You might think that a lot of this could be done with concrete - but concrete creates all sorts of technical problems and is generally just far too rigid causing things to break.  Ballast is both cheaper and able to do a better job.

In many repsects what does a lot of the work done by ballast is the spaces in between - the "interstices".  These allow the ballast and track set in it to shift around.  They also provide the space for water to drain away.

Right... why does it need cleaning?

Two reasons

1. all that small movement gradually grinds off some of the surfces of the stones where they are in contact making a dust which, when wet, can form a slurry, a mud or - when it dries out again - a weak concrete.
2. any rubbish, dust, leaf mould... anything that can be blown or washed onto the track can get down into the ballast and clog the spaces with pretty much the same result.

This is one reason that track/ballast changes colour with age... it's filling up with crud.  This can include load spill and local pollution.  Anything like oil is of course a problem in its own right... but then it can mix with the dust stuff and make a real mess... that not only blocks drainage but holds surface puddles.

New ballast tends to be bright in whatever colour it comes out of the quarry in (assuming that it's not an industrial slag of some kind).  Oxidation usually dulls the colour.  Dirt then discolours...

Cleaning on its own is a matter of lifting the ballast out of the track, putting it through a screen and putting it back.  imagine doing that for a 12 hour shift in the "good old days"...  These days it is done by very noisey machines.  Noisey because they are lifting and banging about loose stone.

Another difference you can see between modern new ballast and older stuff is that the new  stuff, which is shattered out of the rock face, will be jagged and sharp.  Older ballast has had the edges knocked off.  Old fashioned ballast was sort of half way as a rule because it was quarried in lumps and broken which involved it being bashed about more than modern ballast.

Cleaning usually reduces the volume of ballast so at some point new ballast will be added to top up the grade.  Local condtions and practice determine whether this is dropped before the clean - which will mix the new stuff in - or after - which will tend to leave it near the top or around the points the tamper picks ram in.

The earlier stuff went on about how and when ballast is dropped and the affect that has on the appearance of the track.

Hope that this helps.

PS... as well as rotting ties water in track can either cause it to set like concrete or lubricate so that everything becomes unstable and slides around.  One way or another you don't want water hanging around in track.  And again, any acid in the water will rot the rail and spikes.

Water can also get in from underground sources and well up saturating track or bringing ground material up into it.

Lubricated track tends to "pump" as the ballast oozes around the ties in a goo instead of holding it firmly. I don't know why but the goo tends to form pillow shapes between the ties.  If the track is really shifting vertically it will pump up a spray of goo which will spattere the ties and rails in whatever colour it is.  I wouldn't attempt to model the movement but the appearance would be interesting... also - there would be an enforced speed restriction over the bad track so that trains wouldn't come off or do more damage to themselves or the track.

these "wet beds" get dug out pretty quickly as a rule.  they may be left to dry -or for the cause to show up - for some days while they are monitored -- and the speed restriction stays on.  You can use this to run trains fast one way and slow the other.  A bit of re-sculpting and you can change sides later if you want.

Um... how about changing the thread title a bit?

[shawnee]

Great stuff, Dave-the-Train, learned a lot from this thread...so thanks, and to all the abandoned track modelers~!  Hey, I actually have a basic understanding on how ballast works now.  

[Newyorkcentralfan]

The WAG ran into 1979. It was known for the ex FoMoCo Rouge River plant GE switchers and later ex SP FP-7 units it used as well as the ex B&M singled sheathed boxcars that were used for transporting raw hides to leather tanneries. The Northern PA /Southern Tier area of NY area it ran in was rather hilly and rather picturesque.

I think the FRA has different classes of track which limit operation to specific speeds.

There's some more pictures in the MAY 2004 Railroad Model Craftsman of a 1970 railfanning trip to the WAG. The track was grass covered in 1970.


Wellsville, Addison and Galeton Railroad
Edward A. Lewis
1970
Short Tracks Development Corp [pubisher]

Wellsville, Addison & Galeton
Railroad Model Craftsman, December 1970 page 29
Bob Walker

You mean, there really is a Sole Leather Line?
Trains, February 1972 page 36
Wellsville, Addison & Galeton
DAVID H. HAMLEY

Where the first generation became the second
Trains, March 1972 page 38
Wellsville, Addison & Galeton
DAVID H. HAMLEY

Wellsville, Addison & Galeton Railroad
The Historical Guide to North American Railroads, Second Edition page 454
GEORGE DRURY

Perspective: Junction on a hillside
Railroad Model Craftsman, May 2004 page 48
Newfield Junction, Pa.
JIM BOYD

These last photos - the WAG - is that an operational railroad?  If it is, the condition of that track is bizarre!  I would have thought there were laws or regulations of some kind that made you maintain track that you're going pull pull many hundred tons over.

[fiatfan]

I hearby nominate Dave-The-Train for Model Railroading Gentleman of the Week.  Thank you Dave for taking the time to answer all of the questions as well as providing a valuable resource for all of us.

Tom 

[SteamFreak]

Shawnee, I posed a similar question a few months back. Here's the link: Modeling Abandoned Trackage

NewYorkCentral, I love the WAG photos. They remind me a bit of D&H's branch up to Tahawus, NY (near Mt. Marcy and Lake Placid) shortly before it was abandoned in '89.

[WCfan]

If you have a road, try to keep the cross bucks in place unless it's a main road. There's a bunch in Wausau. One of my favorites is a cross buck that still says five tracks when there's only one. Or keep the buck there but let it say 2 tracks instead of 1. Here's the link: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=66392

[Dave-the-Train]

If you have a road, try to keep the cross bucks in place unless it's a main road. There's a bunch in Wausau. One of my favorites is a cross buck that still says five tracks when there's only one. Or keep the buck there but let it say 2 tracks instead of 1. Here's the link: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=66392

Call the cops!  Someone stole the railroad!

[Newyorkcentralfan]

If you liked the Tahawus, NY branch you'll also like the Crescent Branch. In 1976 after the creation of Conrail, they decided to abandon the Penn Central Crescent Industrial Trackage. The state of New York didn't want that to happen because there was a Ford tractor plant in Crescent/Latham located on it. Since it connected with the D&H at Green Island, the state hired them to take over operations.

The trackage was very low profile. Quotes captions from the website.




"Northbound just ready to cross Lansing Lane in Cohoes on the way to the Ford plant in Latham. A spotter was always on the front of the train looking for debris, rail gauge problems, etc."




"They're throwing the switch for the runaround at Reepmyers. The spur for the Ford plant is behind the power to the left."




"Here is looking eastward from Reepmyers Feed warehouse and the train is being separated to switch at the Ford plant."



"The power running around the train at Reepmyers in Latham getting ready to head back down through Cohoes to Colonie. Reepmyers warehouse is on the right and the site of present day Clemente Cement is on the left. Shot looking westward toward the Route 9 overpass."




"Switching at the former Ford tractor plant off of Route 9 in Latham. The power is heading to the Ford warehouse to pick up empties to be brought back to Colonie. The photo is looking northwest and the power is crossing Fonda Rd in Latham. The former Reepmyers Feed warehouse can be seen at left."




"Here's a southbound heading back from the Ford plant. The flat behind the engine was returning from Ford. Bucket assemblies were placed on the flatcar and shipped to Ford for assembly to tractors at the Latham facility. This shot was taken looking nw from the Garner St bridge in Cohoes. This was the 'wye' that was formerly used to turn steam engines when the Cohoes yard was active. The remains of the north leg of the wye can just be seen at the center right of the photo. The wye went back to service a textile storage warehouse. Today this site is partially filled in and overgrown. The bridge is filled in and the warehouse has been replaced with new housing. This wye was located about 1/8 mile north of the Cohoes yard."

NewYorkCentral, I love the WAG photos. They remind me a bit of D&H's branch up to Tahawus, NY (near Mt. Marcy and Lake Placid) shortly before it was abandoned in '89.

[SteamFreak]

If you liked the Tahawus, NY branch you'll also like the Crescent Branch.

Boy, now you're bringing back memories of those D&H Alcos, although I never knew Alco made weedwhackers. And not very effective ones, at that. The crew had to have more than a little faith that there were still rails underneath all of that. Thanks for posting all of the info.

I read somewhere that the titanium ore mined at Tahawas was so abrasive that it took it's toll on everything mechanical, including the trains. Combine that with the Adirondack winters, and you've got a real torture test for man & machine alike.

I found an interesting site called Modern Ruins (link here) with photo essays of various abandoned sites, and according to them the mine complex at Tahawus was finally torn down last year. You'll see that they also feature an abandoned D&H engine servicing facility, though it doesn't say where.

 

 

[tgindy]

Do they just have ties, or the rails and ties overgrown? 

Question #1:  Where's the rails?

http://www.davesrailpix.com/john/htm/john086.htm 

Question #2:  Where's the rails?

http://www.davesrailpix.com/john/htm/john010.htm

[jecorbett]

A lot of abandoned rail lines have been converted to bicycle paths, including some stretches in Knox County, Ohio where I live. It would be an interesting feature if you are modeling the current era. A bike path could run as a branch off an active line on your layout. I model the 1950s and I don't think that was done back then but for a modern day modeler, it is an option.

[Guilford Guy]

Here is some not yet abandoned track...

These Images may be grapic to some railfans. If you are partial to lack of maintenance or stuck trains DO NOT click the links

We have rails down there somewhere.... 

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2004121917461612614.jpg:bysearch:watertown+branch:SEARCHTYPE=SIMPLE&PAGE=21&BOOL=ALL&SEARCHSTRING=watertown+branch

We may be here for awhile... 

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2004121917372212025.jpg:bysearch:watertown+branch:SEARCHTYPE=SIMPLE&PAGE=21&BOOL=ALL&SEARCHSTRING=watertown+branch 

Can someone saw Fwoomp 

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2003071722090113922.jpg:bysearch:watertown+branch:SEARCHTYPE=SIMPLE&PAGE=22&BOOL=ALL&SEARCHSTRING=watertown+branch

Nope not abadoned yet 

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2002051221335130281.jpg:bysearch:watertown+branch:SEARCHTYPE=SIMPLE&PAGE=23&BOOL=ALL&SEARCHSTRING=watertown+branch

Still not abandoned...

http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?2007021506020230564.jpg:bysearch:watertown+branch:SEARCHTYPE=SIMPLE&PAGE=5&BOOL=ALL&SEARCHSTRING=watertown+branch

 

[Newyorkcentralfan]

This being a line maintained by Guilford with trackage this rough doesn't surprise me at all. 

It would make a interesting line to model but I think our equipment would have trouble  traversing a scaled down version of trackage this rough. 

 Looking at these these phtos on NErail it strikes me that only railfans would waste film and/or storage space taking and posting photos like this, of decaying industrial areas.

We are quite a bunch, aren't we? 

 

Here is some not yet abandoned track...

These Images may be grapic to some railfans. If you are partial to lack of maintenance or stuck trains DO NOT click the links

We have rails down there somewhere.... 

[canoncityxp]

I've often used this site for reference on industrial areas and abandonned right of way:

 

www.oldnyc.com/bushwick/contents/bushwick.html

Just be carfeful.  I got lost there for hours one day.

Cheers,

G.

Priceless website.  Thanks a bunch for the tip.  Perfect for my needs.

[shawnee]

Since I've begun noticing more often abandoned track alongside the highways, it interested me all the abandoned track in Wash DC when I was up there recently.  It was clearly abandoned, huge weeds growing in the lines, and a major road passing over it without a stop light or sign anymore.  But all the rail was still there, not pulled for scrap!  And the crossbucks were sitting there too, and with all the vandalism, noone whacked it or stole it.  Or should I say "took it" since it had no function anymore, and noone cares. 

Not that the notion wouldn't have flickered my mind.  But i didn't have a chainsaw. 

[snagletooth]

Since I've begun noticing more often abandoned track alongside the highways, it interested me all the abandoned track in Wash DC when I was up there recently.  It was clearly abandoned, huge weeds growing in the lines, and a major road passing over it without a stop light or sign anymore.  But all the rail was still there, not pulled for scrap!  And the crossbucks were sitting there too, and with all the vandalism, noone whacked it or stole it.  Or should I say "took it" since it had no function anymore, and noone cares. 

Not that the notion wouldn't have flickered my mind.  But i didn't have a chainsaw. 

Don't bother, scrap prices for steel arn't that great. Unless your in Germany

[BRJN]

If you can locate a book titled "A Sampling of Penn Central" (perhaps through interlibrary loan - the Allen County Public Library (IN) has a copy - which I promise to not check out until next week), there are a bunch of photos of track that was in DIRE need of repairs or abandonment.

Maybe this will work as a how-to:  Get a stretch of flextrack.  Ballast &c as normal.  Pull the rails out.  Sprinkle ground foam around and place a few bushes on / next to the right-of-way.  Maybe add a dirt layer first so the ballast looks lower and some ties disappear into it.

I do not have photos (drat) but we have abandoned lines in city limits.  In most cases (but NOT all) the rails are gone except at road crossings.  Some have been paved over and are used by joggers.  A former bridge has been taken out and the road that goes under it had a whole lot of asphalt poured in to make an uphill slope less steep.  You could also have a street that goes under one track and stays depressed for a distance before returning to ground level (where the old tracks used to be).  Some old tracks are only identifiable because the brush has a straight-line dent in its profile.  We have a former division-point yard that now is used by Triple Crown.  There is room at one end where 8 tracks were and some tall weeds is.  Little-used tracks should feel vaguely claustrophobic as the trees and bushes get closer to the edge of the ballast.

[Dave-the-Train]

There's some nice not-in-use tracks here

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=166117&nseq=26

[Anonymous]

Well, gives me ever more reason to run my MOW units on my layout, and have them hang out on the sidings.

Yeah. Reminds me of that awsome photo published in MR of the Utah Belt spreaders. I don't remember what issue, but it was a great photo!

I built an abandoned track in a lumberyard which no longer has rail service. I just used a piece of brass track and worked the dirt parking lot into the track. I left the rails in, but added some loose ties on the end which used to connect with the mainline, (still there and active.) I'll try to get some pictures up, but I need to remember how to put them in an album on my web site.

[WCfan]

Well, gives me ever more reason to run my MOW units on my layout, and have them hang out on the sidings.

Yeah. Reminds me of that awsome photo published in MR of the Utah Belt spreaders. I don't remember what issue, but it was a great photo!

I built an abandoned track in a lumberyard which no longer has rail service. I just used a piece of brass track and worked the dirt parking lot into the track. I left the rails in, but added some loose ties on the end which used to connect with the mainline, (still there and active.) I'll try to get some pictures up, but I need to remember how to put them in an album on my web site.

Was it in Trackside Photos? That's the one I'm thinking of. I forgot what issue it was too.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah. It was in Trackside Photos. They should put more photos in, that's one of my favorite sections.

[wedudler]

My friend Lars has made his module a "bumper" module:

Wolfgang 

[CPRail modeler]

hehe those pics of the sinking Guilford unit were FUNNY!!!

i too have seen some abandoned track here in Burnaby. there was even a rail line 10 minutes from my house. it was torn up around 2000. the tracks would connect from the mainline and pass under the highway. then they would go through my neighborhood and off to some other industries (The Brick, Imperial Oil) before going off into the parts unknown. i think it then reconnected with the mainline at a later point because there was also another section of abandoned track that recently had the turnout removed. there is a good thing though. the rails and ties are gone and most of it has been replaced with greenery BUT, the area were there is no greenery has been converted to a walking path that leads right to the mainline. the not so good thing is that there is a fenced wooden bridge between the path an the mainline which prevents me (or anyone else) from getting some trackside photos.

i think there was also some remnants of streetcar or trolley tracks in downtown vancouver and granville island. most of the street system has been paved over but there are some perserved cars and even a railline that operates them. i rode them before and it was kinda cool. there was also a tram that was restored and is now on display at the burnaby heritage museum.

[tomikawaTT]

Unless the entire line was abandoned, there is probably a place where the abandoned/neglected/no longer present rails met some that are still active.  You can achieve this effect with a set of well-weathered switch ties under the active rails, possibly with the frog still in place but the points replaced by solid rail.  If the abandonment took place some time ago, there may be a few new standard-length ties among the older switch ties (If this is true, the frog is almost certain to have been removed.)

I have seen such 'ghost turnouts' in person and in photos, but didn't find any when I went looking (not very hard) for them.

In my own modeling, I expect to have the opposite - a set of brand new switch ties under older rails where the new double track will be cut into existing trackwork once the new Harukawa bridge is in (pile driver driving pilings for footings at present) and the TBM finishes digging its way through Haruyama (the mountain, not the village.)  Estimated completion date is (model) June 1966...

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[SteamFreak]

I found a few interesting examples of abandoned trackage on RailPictures as well.

I still can't believe this isn't abandoned. A GP9 tows Susquehanna 142 and a caboose into the woods on the former Belvedere & Delaware. I don't think weeds like this could be modeled, much less have scale motive power run through them.

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=188480&nseq=11

 

This shot is from Wisconsin, and shows what must be a former diamond severed on one side, and joined to BNSF trackage through a turnout on the other.

 

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=176449&nseq=47

 

An overgrown spur in Central NJ.

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=186432&nseq=16

 

And finally a slightly decrepit bridge in North Carolina.

http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=178306&nseq=0