Well, actually, I knew better. It's not like I didn't already have some Walthers cars, and I have struggled before with those tiny little wire grab irons.
However, I just could not pass up a deal. Recently, Walthers advertised their P-S 64-seat coaches for under $20.00. It was about $17.00 each if I recall correctly. Northern Pacific was one of the roads offered, and my ficticous division on the CB&Q operated through trains with either NP or GN. SO. Why not? A bargain is a bargain.
At first, I operated it without the grab irons as is the case with most of my Walthers cars. However, I have a new coach made by Rapido. It has grabs installed AND lighting installed. So I got a lighting kit for the Walthers coach. That way, I thought, the cars might look okay together in a train. Of course, the greens do not match, but no two manufactureres will match NP greens anyhow.
A couple of nights ago, I was inspired to install the grabs and the lighting kit on my walthers coach. Well, as I said, I had causes to know better.
About two frustrating hours later, I had two broken #80 drill bits and about 2/3 of the grabs installed. Crooked. Out of shape. But, installed nonetheless. I omitted the roof grabs thinking I did not want my screw-ups in plain sight.
Well, I didn't want to spend the entire evening with grabs irons, and the hobby was becoming less of a relaxing endeaver. I decided to move on. Time for the lighting kit!
That's when I found out about part number 17. The car has five #17's in the roof which clip the roof to the car sides. Carefully, following directions, I only broke three of the five #17's. The light bar, itself went into the car easily. Before re-installing the roof, I placed the car on a test track. Lights worked fine.
I re-installed the roof and put the car on the test track again. .......rats! ..lights would not work. Somehow, the electrical contacts separated. ....Off with the roof, and ooops!... one more #17 breaks... I worked on the connection some more, and reinstalled the roof. The lights worked.
Okay, now the car number decals. NP numbers are white. Decal paper backing is white. Can't read the numbers. ......why me?....... I cut out one number and installed it on one side. Next, I cut out one number at a time and wet each one until I found the matching number for the other side. ....
So now I operate my two coaches together. You can tell which is the Walthers car. It has some crooked grab irons and a loose roof. The Rapido car does not have those problems Also, the Rapido car includes some neat window blinds, end gates, and marker lamps which can be placed on the last car of a train.
I've installed grabs on 2 of my Walthers cabooses. It was quite a struggle, with them too. I have 4 more Walthers cabooses in their boxes. I wonder now if I'll ever install grab irons on them.
Lately, my friend who is new to model railroading asked for some help. He said he bought a really nice Walther freight car but it need to have #80 holes drilled and grab irons installed. .................... er, well,.......need help with something else, by chance?....he had to ask that question..... just had to ask............
I wonder why Walthers does not install grab irons at the factory. As I said, Rapido does that. P2K locomotves have grab irons installed. So do others. I add the cost for #80 drills and the lighting kit to my $17.00 or so, and I am well on my way to having enough to buy a Rapido car.
Anybody else have a problem with Walthers grab irons?
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Yup, been there, still doing it. I have the Walther's CB&Q 4 window wood waycars as well. One has the grabs added, it was a real pain. The other is still waiting for me to get both the gumption and 4 hour block of time to get em installed. They look nice but dang!
Rick
Garry:
Yep, bought a Frisco caboose from them during their recent sale, and bought a couple of reefers on ebay last year. Just started with the caboose, and I beat you, only broke one #80 drill bit, but, though I have all of the holes drilled, have a grand total of two(2) irons installed. Haven't even started on the reefers yet. I'm sure some of the vets out there are going to call this whining, but I find it a real pain. By the way, installing the grab irons on my Stewart Baldwin switcher a few months ago, though still requiring my Optivisors, I still found quite a bit easier than those staple diameter grab irons with the Walther's cars.
Jim
Understandable Loathar, but are you satisfied with their appearance?
Don't be discouraged, I've had few problems with my Walthers Budds. Consider purchasing one or two at a discount dealer and checking them out for yourself.
For installing handrails, it's a good procedure to make a paper templates and pre-drill the holes where the hand rails would go once the template's placed or taped onto the body. (Just like the old Walthers F unit "dress up" kits).
Though I have a powered drill, I prefer to use a pin vise. IT TAKES A WHILE but you have to be patient. Modelers with steady hands can start the holes with pin vises, and finish up with a power drill (the smaller the better). It's critical that the pinvise or power drill not be allowed to wobble while cutting into the plastic.
I plan on purchasing quite a few more in SCL, ACL, and Southern. I like them so much because, imho, they are most realistic, plastic corrugated streamliners I've ever seen. A big step up from their ancestors (the Rivorossi streamliners).
Having been on and around the prototye cars durng the Penn Central and Amtrak era, the Walthers cars really bring back a lot of very fond memories.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Over time and against my better judgement, I bought a number of Walthers cars that needed hand rails and other detail items. After usisng up abut a dozen #80 drills, I decided that Walther's cars that require small wire additions or in the case of a caboose, coupla rails should belong to someone else. I traded all of the cars and will not buy more. There are sufficient versions of rolling stock on the market that I can use as is or modify easliy so that I do not need the Walther's cars
I finally gave up trying to install grabs on their passenger cars. I figure, "Okay, just IMAGINE they're there!" In fact, they're so tiny, that the only way I'd know they were there in the first place is by feel!
Bought several of their Rio Grande cabooses when they first came out. Went nuts (and innumerable #80 drills trying to put the grab-irons on, only to find out that the trucks were too widely spaced to clear the steps even on 36" radius. They look kind of attractive on my caboose track, though. As long as they STAY there!
I do have several Walthers SP cabooses, though, and I bought the "Platinum" line, with the grabs pre-installed. They are really beautiful, and they run very nicely. Worth the extra money IMO just to ease the frustration level. Now if Walthers would charge an extra $5 or so for their passenger cars and install the little wire devils, I'd be a happy camper, even if I CAN barely see them, LOL!
Walthers says that their cars are made out of ABS. To me, that stands for "ALMOST BESSEMER STEEL". BRASS is easier to drill through, for cryin' out loud!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Some tips about this.
First, get a good sewing machine needle, clamped in a pin vise to premark the holes. the holes often have paint in them, and sometimes the pin that is supposed to make the hole is broke in the mold.
I use carbide bits from Micromark. They cost more but cut much better. Now, they are very brittle so you cant put any side pressure on them.
Lubricate the drill with a bar of soap or a tiny drop of real cutting fluid(hardware store).
Good lighting is required, and magnification helps a lot.
For securing the grabs, use Microscale Krystal Klear. It drys slowly so you can adjust the depth and dries clear so if you slop a little it won't show.
Heartland Division CBnQ wrote:Recently, Walthers advertised their P-S 64-seat coaches for under $20.00. It was about $17.00 each if I recall correctly. Northern Pacific was one of the roads offered
About two frustrating hours later, I had two broken #80 drill bits
I knew what I was getting into when I bought most of the Wakthers cars with the install-em-yourself grabirons I have. For the most part, the freight cars sit, I work my way through the cabooses I need, and the passengers cars are good enuf to run and not worry about it.
But I think that Walthers should offer these already done. It's not that I don't do my share of time at the end of an #80 drill. I'm a narrowgauger, too, so I'm a vet at that. But I tend to spend most of my #80 time building narrowgauge. I can get plenty of other standard gauge rolling stock with the grabs already on, so that's what I tend to by with my time budget thus affecting my expense budget.
Although my reasons are peculiar for wanting the grabs already on my Walthers stuff, and I understand those who just love to drill away because that means they're better model railroaders than wimps like me, but I think the market is shifting and Walthers will offer more Platinum level RTR rolling stock to meet the demand.
EDIT: I forgot to add...
Is it just my imagination, but is the plastic on Wathers cars harder to drill than some other plastics?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Am I correct in understanding that the new Walthers "Gold Series" cars coming with the grab irons already installed on the cars?
Yes, drilling the holes for the grab irons can be a test of patience. Are you hand drilling the holes or using some sort of electrical motor. I find that a nice, sharp drill in a pin vise will cut quite nicely into the plastic without too much effort. The challenge though is making sure that you are drilling the hole perpendicular to the surface.
Also, I thought the grab iron holes were #78s, not #80s?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
it's true - practice makes perfect.(should we all live long enough). Antonio had the best advice - let the drill cut the hole - you just spin the bit. Even on ABS, HSS bits should work fine if they haven't been dulled trying to drill through your axels. American made bits tend to cut better than the imports (you still can get what you pay for). I also agree a pin vise and hand power is better as it gives you more feel for what the drill bit is actually doing and you can stop and back out if it starts to jam. Cutting can be aided by applying a bit of candle wax to the tip to keep it from seizing in the hole.
i've never tried this, but i wonder is there a way to heat the metal grabs to melt them into place? J.R.
I've done a number of Walthers kits and ready-builts with grab irons to be installed by owner. I've found that using a #78 bit beats using #80 bits all hollow.
In addition to not breaking any of them, you wind up with a slightly bigger hole than is really needed. The neat think about this is that when you apply your CA to the inside of the car, you have time to straighten out any un-level grab irons.
As I remember, my Pennsy mail-express baggage car required almost 75 of the little dears! Only one of them would up not being level, and that was because I was in a hurry to finally complete the job and I forgot to check for level.
ScottGroff wrote: I've done a number of Walthers kits and ready-builts with grab irons to be installed by owner. I've found that using a #78 bit beats using #80 bits all hollow. In addition to not breaking any of them, you wind up with a slightly bigger hole than is really needed. The neat think about this is that when you apply your CA to the inside of the car, you have time to straighten out any un-level grab irons. As I remember, my Pennsy mail-express baggage car required almost 75 of the little dears! Only one of them would up not being level, and that was because I was in a hurry to finally complete the job and I forgot to check for level.
I was just ready to post the same. C'mon do we need a "Pin Vise 101", what are you guys drilling with? a cordless or rotohammer!
Drilling all those holes can be a PITA, but if your'e not feeling up to it at the moment, or having trouble, walk away. Years ago from detailing Athearn BB and dressing up all those Stewart Fs maybe some of us older gang have more patience and are not spoiled by the RTRs.
I did find that using the larger bit #77 or 78 worked so much better and hardly ever break a bit. Using an Xacto blade as the locating (center punch) you drill a precise hole w/o any walking. The Xacto blade even allows you to redirect the angle to move a hole even 100ths of an inch.
The larger bit not only allows room for the CA, it allows for slight adjustments of the grab if the holes are off a hair.
I don't know what the problems you're having w/ the Walther's cars the grabs are no more difficult to install than drop steps on a BB loco. If you want a real challenge, install the grabs an use the NBW castings (nut, bolt washer) that is drilled and installed just a hair above or below the grab hole.
Most newer models all have the exact drilling locations pre marked by a dimple just next to the NBW. Yes, many times heavy paint may obscure the location or make the bit walk. This is the main reason I started to mark the hole w/ the blade first, locate, touch the mark and a twist of the blade. Go easy, a new blade can snap the ultra fine tip off, then try to drill trough that.
Patience, marking the holes, larger bits, a pin vise, your favorite tweezers and more patience works every time.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
AntonioFP45 wrote: Understandable Loathar, but are you satisfied with their appearance?
Yep. Good enough for my layout. I know the Walthers look a lot better. I've just noticed more than a couple of folks complaining about them lately. I would have been bummed out if I spent the extra $$$ to find out I had to drill holes for the grab irons. ( just my preference. Not trying to knock anything here)
Here's the two cars I was talking about. Walthers is on the right. Notice the roof. It no longer fits snugly because I broke 4 of 5 part #17's while installing lighting kit. Rapido car on the left has a roof that is easily removed without breaking any parts.
Thanks for the advice on the grab irons to those who provided it. Because Walthers cars retail for over $40.00 now, I would think grabs would have been installed already.
I broke first #80 with pin vice and second with Dremel on very low speed.
BTW, I took photo before applying decals.
The best thing to do is write to all the manufacturers and ask them to change their tooling so the grab irons and other delicate details are molded solidly as part of the main bodywork.
Rivarossi, Tri-ang and many other early manufacturers used to do it this way, so why go backwards and offer better detailed items that might require a little patient work.
Heck, its much easier to scrape off the unwanted plastic, locate and drill the required holes and then repaint and reletter with a small brush and enamels, this would make it much easier.
A favourite saying of mine is "Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it" - fine details and showcase models have always been a desire of model railroaders, but the influx of fine-ness has overwhelmed the basic model railroader to the point of frustration, some people just want to 'play' trains.
We were also much better off when only one number was available, there was no trouble with missmatches - unless of course the manufacturer did a re-run later on.
If everyone got together and designed and manufactured one 'perfect' model, we wouldn't have all this frustration of actually having to use tools (that are readily available in this modern day I might add!) to correct/modify/improve the incapabilities of all those under-achiever manufacturers like Walthers, Athearn, Atlas, Kato etc to name a few who think they are doing us modellers a service by supplying what they obviously feel are continually better developed models - will they never learn!
I make my own decals, I build kits, I paint models with an air-brush, I like to model and also have R-T-R, I am grateful for any offerings, I drive a Ford, I am an Aussie, I model N Scale North American, I buy #80 drill bits in bulk, I think Grimy Black is 'the' standard railroad colour, surely everyone else is the same.
Teditor.
Teditor
Adding grab irons, like any other modeling technique, is one that requires some practice.
I find it funny that so many of you expect models to come with them installed--many of us learned to drill holes using a pin vise years ago, because nothing but brass ever came with pre-installed details. It's also how we added various other detail parts. (And, no, you don't use a motor tool, or you end up with broken bits galore.)
Maybe the folks at Model Railroader are right: they don't publish how-to articles anymore because today's modlers don't want to know "how-to." They want to buy it already done.
Well, I have installed grab irons and hand rails successfully over the years. Years back, I made wood cars from LaBelle, Northeastern, and others for my 1900 era layout. I only needed a few cars for such a layout. I could, therefore, spent lots of time on each car.
Now, I'm modeling a busy railroad in the 1950's and 1960's. I need much more equipment to do so. If I spend two or more hours just for grab irons on each car, I'll not have much operating time if any at all.
Also, wood was easy to work with back then. As pointed out below, ABS plastic is a tough material.
I mentioned "other frustrations" in the subject line. In particular, it's good to easily remove a roof from a model without breaking tabs inside. I can do that with Rapido cars.
Also for comparson, I have two Kato business cars (CB&Q and NP). It was easy to open the car and install the Kato lighting kit. No "part #17' s" broke. Installation of grab irons and details was time consuming with the Kato cars. However, all holes were drilled at the factory. These cars have tiny, fragile grab irons and other details. I installed each detail without breaking anything. The grab irons are not crooked or bent as with the Walthers car.
My model railroad time is limited. If I take time to install details on "ready-to-run" equipment, I take time from working on track, wiring, scenery, etc.
Heartland Division CB&Q saidIf I spend two or more hours just for grab irons on each car, I'll not have much operating time if any at all.
If I spend two or more hours just for grab irons on each car, I'll not have much operating time if any at all.
Garry, I guess my answer would be to just do 3 or 4 at a time, put it down, then go do something else. Yes, it will take you longer but you won't go bonkers doing it. And, you'll probably do a better job at it.
Heartland Division CB&Q saidAlso, wood was easy to work with back then. As pointed out below, ABS plastic is a tough material.
Sharp bits will make ALL the difference in the world. Spend the extra money on good tools - e.g. sharp bits and a good, comfortable pin vise.
Heartland Division CB&Q said My model railroad time is limited. If I take time to install details on "ready-to-run" equipment, I take time from working on track, wiring, scenery, etc.
Re-read first comment.
I'm working on a laser cut depot kit that I picked up at a train show recently. Because the way this particular one is constructed, the progress is very slow. So, I'm learning that it's best to just take my time putting it together.
For instance, when I paint one wall of the structure, it warps. In order to flatten the piece out, I must sandwich it between 2 pieces of 1 x 3, lay a brick on top, and let it set under the weight for 24 hours while the paint completely dries. When its done, I paint the other side and do the same thing. In order to paint all 4 walls and keep them flat, it's taking me over a week to do this.
To paint a wall takes probably all of 10 minutes, at most. However, since I have a limited amount of 1 x 3, I have to do this one at a time. That's why it's taking me more than a week to accomplish this part of the assembly. Am I stuck? No. While the wall dries and flattens, I can do other things.
My best advice to you is when doing a tedious job:
This will make those not-so-pleasant jobs more enjoyable in the long run.
Thanks Tom and others for all the good thoughts.
Alternatively, I could use non-Walthers cars. The walthers coach (foreground) really looks no better than the Rivarossi car (left-hand GN coach). Best car is the Rapido car (right-hand GN coach). The cars in the background (IHC NP coach and Con Cor CB&Q sleeper) could be upgraded to very nice models.
SO if I'm going to take the time to install grab irons, I should consider doing so with Rivarossi, IHC, or Con Cor cars, too. So why pay more for a Walthers car?
Furthermore, Walthers is the only one of the group where it's a difficult struggle to remove the roof to work inside the car.
Heartland Division CBnQ wrote:SO if I'm going to take the time to install grab irons, I should consider doing so with Rivarossi, IHC, or Con Cor cars, too. So why pay more for a Walthers car?
The problem for me, and many like me is age and arthritis, which plays havoc when using a pin vise and keeping it steady. In the 50's, 60's 70's, 80's and 90's, I drilled, broke my share of bits but still got the grabs on the cars.
Now, human fraility is making it very difficult to drill all those holes, and on the last couple of Walthers cars, I just didn't put the grabs on. My solution for the future? Won't buy cars/diesels from any company that makes me drill those holes.
That said, I have a nice collection in a bag of all sorts of grabs and handrails for Walthers cars sitting on the work bench.
Bob
Hello again everybody. Thanks again for all the good thoughts. Pastor Bob brought up a point. We're not getting younger. As he says, age catches up with arthritis as well as other ailments impacting our abilities. I would also add that we really don't know how much time we have. However, time is running out for all of us. Those who want their own realistic, operating layout need to budget their time wisely.
Regarding my NP coach.......... I repaired the roof mounts. Simple job. I used a good quality super glue to gluee the broken tabs back onto those part 17's. I allowed it to set for 24 hours which is much longer than specified by the glue maker. Then I could replaced the roof. Now it's okay.
As for the grab irons on the car, the ones on the side of the car are now looking okay. The "L" shaped grabs at one end are still out of position. I've not bothered with the roof grabs.
The # 80 drills are Walthers brand. I'll try Micro Mark when I get a chance.
I'm grateful to all who participated in this thread.
I don't like drilling all those holes either. It's not that I *can't* but I just don't like it. One thing I sometimes do, is to take the car apart. For me, it's easier to work on a flat surface. Plus, I can clamp the wall/side/roof down so it doesn't move. Walthers is pretty good about how they put the dimples. On other cars (Athearn, IHC/Rivarossi) I use templates to lay out where the holes go.
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
Andy,
Nice to see you guys pop in now and then, you guys do play with trains too. And have lots of experience with many of the products. Thanks for dropping by.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Sperandeo wrote:Hi Garry,My advice with no. 80 drill bits is to use them in a hand held motor tool (or flexible shaft tool) with a speed control. I use an old Dremel with a foot-pedal speed control so I can hold the car in one hand, the tool in the other, and vary the drill speed with my foot. I keep the speed relatively slow so the bit cuts through the plastic instead of melting it. The smallest Dremel collets will hold no. 80s very well, especially if you keep one especially for that size and never use it for larger bits. The advantage of the motor tool is that it turns steadily and puts a lot less stress on the tiny bit than drilling with a hand-held pin vise.The other technique I recommend is to regard the Walthers drill-starting dimples as locating spots and use a large sewing needle in a pin vise to punch a more precise depression for starting the drill. You'll get a lot less wandering that way, and drill straighter holes, which will also help to reduce breakage. Nothing's worse for no. 80 bits than side pressure.Last year when I reviewed the Walthers Santa Fe heavyweight chair car for the November issue of MR, I found that more than 80 number 80 holes were required for all the wire details to be added. Using the tools and methods I've just described, I drilled all the holes without breaking a bit.Good luck,Andy
Hear! Hear! Thats what I been doing on the last few Walthers freight cars..Of course that was after doing things the hard way with a pin vice on 3 Walthers C&O cabooses.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"