NCE V Digitrax or Digitrax V NCE is there a history to this?

[jktrains]

Paul3,

So as not to be obtuse, lets stick to one specific example.  I purchased a SDH104K1C+FN04K1 decoder for a Kato F40PH last December.  According to you I should be able to go to the Digitrax website, find the decoder, read the manual for it and know how to program it.  WELL, I've done that. You know what the website says as for support documentation for that specific decoder - "coming soon".  How long should I wait??  Its been 3 months!  Shouldn't they have written the manual before starting to sell the darn things!  Is that too much to ask?  Is it too much to ask to have a complete manual when I spent nearly $80 on the thing?  Oh yeah, I look on the Digitrax website like you suggested.  The 78 page decoder manual says nothing about sound decoders, nothing about changing the volume of each effect, what CV controls it, what the CV range is etc etc etc.  So much for their documentation library being up to date.  Next great suggestion???  The decoder image says "coming soon".  If they selling the things shouldn;t they be able to have an image of it on the website.  The decoder has 8 wires coming off of it.  The manual with the decoder doesn't describe what the wires are for.  Should I just try a trial & error method to determine what wires is for what function?  Just cut them off and forget about adding more prototypical detail?

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_sdh104k1ccombo.php

When you buy an alarm clock radio, don;t you expect it to include operating instruction?  How many of these have you purchased?  Even the $20-$30 ones include instructions.

jktrains

BTW, I own 4 digital cameras.  Each of them come with complete manuals an how to operate them.  Not once in the manual to it suggest going to their respective websites to download a more complete version of the manual.  They also came with spanish and french language versions.  What's your response going to be when people suggest the need for mfgs to include a spanish version of the manual with decoders?

[simon1966]

JKtrains, at least now we know why you came over as so anti-Digitrax. It has been coming over loud and clear in your posts this month, no matter how hard you tried to hide it.  I can't say I blame you for being annoyed by-the-way.

Have you called them?  Are the instructions just not available, or just not up on the web yet?

It really is no excuse, but time-after-time we seem to be presented with examples of small companies in our hobby really struggling to manage quite rapid growth.  Incredible delays in the release of virtually anything DCC related from NCE, Soundtraxx, QSI and Digitrax.  False starts with new products.

In an effort to help, do the following links provide you with any information you did not already have?

http://www.digitrax.com/soundcvs.php  Sound CV table for Sound FX decoders

http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/sfxAC4400.pdf  manual for the virtually identical decoder. 

I don't think it is any clearer on the function of the extra wires.  What has Digitrax said in response to questions about them?  I'm not one to sit around and wait for 3 months, I would have been on the phone until I got an answer.

The other comment I would make is that I do think that DCC companies are very reliant on the dealer network.  It is one of the reasons that the Tony's, Litchfield Stations, Loy's Toys and others have carved out nice niches for themselves.  They can provide expert advice and support in these types of situations.  Anyway, keep us posted on progress.  I have been holding off buying any of the new sound decoders from any of the vendors, taking a bit of a wait and see attitude to see what washes out.

[Pruitt]

Paul,

What's obtuse about expecting to get a manual when I buy a technically advanced product? I was not being at all obtuse. To me, it is unacceptable to have to go "find" a manual, even if it is online. Do ALL decoders program exactly the same? Of course not - some have much simpler functionality than others. If the programming as well as the installation of a decoder is unique, should it then come with both sets of instructions?

As far as the camera and your 30 decoders, you've proved my point for me. YOU don't need the instructions, but folks who are purchasing their first decoders will. The difference is simply that the camera comes with a complete manual, while apparently some decoder manufacturers think their product is complete without providing one.

Since you don't know what a "footprint" is when used in this context, I'll explain. When used in this way, a footprint does NOT address depth. It refers to the shape and size an object requires when sat on some sort of mating surface, in this case probably a desk or counter. If it's made to fit on a curved surface, then the footprint is the contact area and shape on that surface (in that case you might argue that it has depth).

The idea of having manual and non-manual decoder packages for sale is not at all ridiculous (any more than it's ridiculous for Kellog to make more than one size of cereal box). How many different decoders does Digitrax (since you're stuck on them as your example) make? Let's go wild and say a couple hundred. Adding that many SKUs can be done over time, and is not at all too burdensome. More burden than not doing it, sure, but not the backbreaking effort you imply.

You keep pointing out that the manuals are available online. OK. So why include ANYTHING with the decoder, other than maybe a note on the packaging that says "See installation and use instructions at Digitrax,com?" Same for the system, throttles, etc. That's the logical progression. If it works okay for decoder programming, why not installation? Why not throttle usage? Radio upgrade? Entire system package? (No, I'm not being snide. Where do you draw the line and expect an enclosed manual, and why?)

One of your big arguments for web-only manuals seems to be that even if you have to go to your local library, you can get access. Then in your last post you say  to keep it on the computer to avoid having to pay to print it out. Running back and forth to the library to read each step of the manual will get very time-consuming (and exhausting).

As far as my calling your statements that people can go to the library to get the info and print it out there (at their not-inconsequential expense) pathetic - I probably should not have done so. The snideness and condescending attitude in that paragraph got the better of me. I carefully avoided responding in kind in the rest of my post; I probably should have there as well.

I hope we can continue to discuss this in a mature manner. To that end, if my "pathetic" comment was offensive, I apologize.

[Anonymous]

Pardon me, but you guys are BOTH being ridiculous.   You are over age 8, aren't you?

Of course it's silly to expect a huge manual or set of printed manuals with each decoder (especially such as QSI and Tsunami).  I don't think either of you really thinks this is realistic.

But it's also silly to suggest the manufacturer have two products for each decoder, one with manuals and one without.

Finally, it's equally silly to suggest that there be absolutely no printed manuals or instructions.  Again, I don't think either of you really thinks this is sensible.

How about a compromise, along the lines of one I suggested earlier:

A realtively small printed manual with each decoder -- covering installation, the basics, noting any differences from the other decoders in the series, and mentioning the following:

The full manual available online.   And/or on a CD (like SoundTraxx has for the Tsunami, and it is, or was, free from Litchfield).

A printed version of the full manual, covering the series of decoders, available at the same retailers (stores and/or online), for a nominal extra charge.  

 

[tstage]

How about a compromise, along the lines of one I suggested earlier:

A realtively small printed manual with each decoder -- covering installation, the basics, noting any differences from the other decoders in the series, and mentioning the following:

The full manual available online.   And/or on a CD (like SoundTraxx has for the Tsunami, and it is, or was, free from Litchfield).

A printed version of the full manual, covering the series of decoders, available at the same retailers (stores and/or online), for a nominal extra charge.

And they lived happily ever after... 

[selector]

I can't speak about Digitraxx decoders, but the QSI decodered BLI steamers all come with a very basic, thin, manaul that gives function manipulation in both DC and DCC ops, plus a small list of the most popular CV's, and a short blurb on decoder reset, to cover the highlights.  They tell us to go online and download the more advanced stuff for ourselves.   This seems sensible; just enough to get going and to have fun.

Were we to install our own QSI's, I'd expect a double-sided 8.5X11" folded sheet with some clear drawings or photos and some 10-20 descriptive steps.  That's it.

My big complaint is that I couldn't at first pick up my DT 400 and see immediately how to start up and run trains.  Instead, I had to walk myself through the first 10-15 pages of the manual, and even then we know what that was like!

I find that many suppliers of electronics now provide a flow-chart sheet, a folded one that may unfold to 24" square, and they walk you through the parts, their connections, and five easy steps to (sound, TV, camera shooting, n(to the n-1).

Is this what others expect/actually get?  Or do some of the suppliers fall short?

[rrinker]

Mark, the manual in question is a 78 page spiral-bound manual with a cover.  ... It costs considerably more than pennies and would add more than pennies to the transportation cost of the decoder. Having seen how hobby shops hold decoders in inventory, it would also make them harder for hobby shops to stock them.  In a market that is unquestionably price sensitive, it would be commercial suicide to include this manual, especially considering that for the vast majority it would be redundant. Everything you need to know to get one of these decoders is installed is included in the supplied documentation.  Mark, perhaps you would be willing to pay a dollar or two more for a Digitrax decoder if it had this manual, but time after time all one reads on here and other forums are questions about getting lower cost decoders.  If you needed to equip 10 locomotives with decoders would you be willing to pay $20 more (more than the cost of 1 decoder) to get 10 copies of the same 78 page manual? It is not exactly as secret that this additional information is available on the web site for those that want and need it.

Extending your argument to it's logical conclusion, Simon, even installation instructions shouldn't be included with the decoder. After all, who needs 10 copies of the same installation instructions? Might save a few cents on the cost of the decoder if the manufacturer doesn't have to provide any instructions, right?

But let's define "manual" in this context. I'm not talking about a full tutorial on DCC and how it all works - I'm talking about including CV information, primarily - what each one controls and what each of the various values for each CV does. For example, explaining that certain CVs set the speed table, what the value range is for those CVs, and generall how those values work (along the lines of "increasing the value will increase the maximum motor output voltage" or "decreasing the minimum value will decrease the starting voltage" or something similar. Another example: explaining which values set in another CV selects which flash pattern in specific lighting functions. Most decoders I've purchased already have that information - only a few haven't. Those few should.

As for the cost of including the manual - bulk printing is cheap. Maybe not pennies (that was for illustration), but for not more than just a few nickles a complete manual for using the product could be included with the product. It doesn't have to be a hard bound book. It also can be a relatively small form factor booklet that takes up little more space than the Digitrax decoder packages do now. And shipping would be only pennies more for the few ounces of additional pages in the manual. Sound decoders are much more complex, so their manuals should be as much larger as is required to explain their functions and programming options.

Maybe the thing to do is sell the decoders with the option of getting a thorough manual with it or not. That way you can buy a full-up manual with the first decoder, then get additional decoders without. Yeah, now we have two stock numbers instead of one, but at least the manuals on how to use the product are available with the product. What a radiacal idea! As far as the instructions being available on the web - believe it or not, not every model railroader, and I'd venture to say that not even every DCC-using model railroader, has an internet connection, or likes to use the web. As for it being redundant for the majority - true. Your implication seems to be that it's just too bad for those in the minority for whom it wouldn't be redundant.

Bottom line - if the purchaser wants to opt out of receiving documentation for their purchase, fine. It should still be available with such a complex product as a DCC decoder if they want it.

 You are absolutely right - every decoder shouldn;t come with instructions. That's why I buy 10 packs, which include 1 instruction shet per 10 decoders

 Bottom line - the option IS there. You get the Digitrax decoder manual with any of their systems, and if you happen to use another system but buy Digitrax decoders, the manual is there for anyone to freely download. It even downloads quickly on my slow ISDN connection. And I guarantee, if Digitrax included the full decoder manual, which explains IN DETAIL EVERY CV, people would be "OMG, Digitax is SOOOO complicated, look at all this programmign you have to do". People liek the TCS manuals not because they have EVERY CV explaine din detail, in fact they have almost no detail - if what you want to do is covered by their yes/no checkbox choices, then the result is you will get the required CV values. But if you want to try some other tricky stuff, hmm, I haven't looked lately but last I checked they didn;t have a detailed technical manual for those that want one.

 Actually, I just picked a few at random and the manuals Digitrax includes DO tell you how to set the address, adjust momentum, and set 3-step speed table using start, mid, and max. They even talk about switching mode. (shows how much I even LOOK at the sheets that come with the decoders) About all casual users would want to start poking around with at first. And it clearly states in several places to review specific sections of the Decoder  Manual for details on varous operations. Seriously, this issue of Digitrax documentation being poor is 99% urban legend at this point. Maybe the old manuals weren't very good, but comparing the start up section of the PowerCab manual to the startup section of the Digitrax Zephyr manual, Digitrax wins hands down.

 

                                                        --Randy
 

[Paul3]

jktrains,
Ok, Digitrax screwed up with their new Sound Decoder manuals.  However, that still doesn't explain why you think that because their sound decoder manuals aren't complete, that somehow they should also not include installation instructions for anything else.

Have you tried contacting Digitrax?  Maybe they have an idea of how to help you.  Maybe they even have a reason why they don't have a complete sound decoder manual online.  No one here can.  My only guess, coming by way of their random shortages of materials, is that they are swamped with business and can barely keep up with demand.  If that's so they should hire more people, but that's just my guess of what's going on.

And I do so wish that people would stop comparing any DCC product to commercial electronics like alarm clocks, cell phones, cameras, computers, and the like.  As for your digital cameras, let me know when you own more than 20 of the exact same camera (like I own more than 20 of the exact same decoder).  We can discuss the usefulness of camera manuals then.

Brunton,
The "obtuse" part was in referance to "Extending your argument to it's logical conclusion...even installation instructions shouldn't be included with the decoder," that was in your posting above.  Nothing more, nothing less.

There are 36 different Digitrax non-sound decoders currently on their website.  There are 23 different "163" decoders.  There are 6 different "123" decoders.  There are also 3 "143" decoders, 1 "383" and 2 "583" decoders (and one lone DN122K2).  And all of these other than the DN122 program exactly the same way as they are all "Series 3" decoders.  Just not all of them have the same number of functions available (which is the middle number of the decoder).  If you want to program in ditchlights, it should be exactly the same if it's a DN143, a DH163, or a DG583.  Just not a "123" as they don't have enough functions for ditchlights, just headlights.  The Digitrax Decoder Manual covers them all equally.

However, there are 36 different installation manuals  (one for each decoder) but they all have the same decoder manual.  Now can you see the difference? 

My point with the cameras is that most people buy one camera at time.  They buy a Canon, then use it until they break it, lose it, or upgrade to a bigger, better camera.  What they don't do is buy them by the dozen.  Decoders are used in multiple in almost every situation.  Cameras are not.  Therefore, a camera manual is logical to include with every camera, while a decoder manual is not.

Let me give you an example from a different hobby.  I used to play Magic: The Gathering back in college (a card game).  Each deck of 60 cards came with a Rule Book that one almost needed a microscope to read, and I accumulated a big stack of Rule Books.  These days, these decks no longer come with Rule Books, instead they have 15 more cards.  And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have more cards than yet another Rule Book.

A footprint in this case should consider depth and weight, especially if it won't fit in the packaging anymore with an addition 9 pages of info in it (folded in half).  I don't know if it would or not, but it would make it more expensive to manufacturer & ship.  Maybe only a $1 or $2, but still more.

You're comparing decoder manuals or lack thereof to different sizes of cereal boxes?  Sorry, but they are not even close to being the same.  And I'm "stuck on them" because that's what we're talking about...Digitrax decoder manuals.  Not NCE, nor Lenz, not Zimo, just Digitrax.

As I said above there are currently 36 non-sound decoders produced by Digitrax.  Most LHS's that sell Digitrax decoders don't stock all of them, just the ones that sell.  Now how are they to know which will sell (w/ or w/o manual), and how many?  When a customer comes in, will they buy the cheaper w/o manual or the more expensive w/ manual?  And what does the LHS do with the kind that doesn't sell?  I never said it was a "backbreaker", just a headache.

The "why include anything" argument again...  Sigh.    Every DCC device shoud include instructions on how to install it; agreed?  Every DCC device that is meant to be sold singularly or in very low numbers to a single user (command stations, throttles, boosters, stationary decoders, block detectors, etc.) should have a full & complete manual included; agreed?  IMHO, every decoder should only have installation instructions and basic programming instructions because they all have the a). the same manual, & b). are purchased in large numbers.  To include a 35 page manual for every decoder or to expect Digitrax to offer w/ and w/o manual packages is just too much (again, IMHO).

Some librarys will allow downloading to a CD-R, so running back and forth to a library isn't always required in every situation (but some don't have burners, etc.).  One could still get a manual in hard copy from Digitrax, just don't ask me how much they would ask for it (I've never asked).

As for the apology, your post did come across a little strong.  Just be glad you didn't see my post before I edited out the bad things I was thinking!    Seriously, I do that a lot.  I type what I think, then go back and take out the stuff that doesn't pass the "10 minute" test (IOW, 10 minutes after I write it, do I still want to say that?).  Sometimes stuff leaks through which can get me in trouble, but if I don't write what I think to begin with, I find I can't articulate the rest as well.  Still, some of the best posts I've ever written were ones I never posted at all.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[pennsy-gg1]

OK!! OK!! Everybody is right and everybody is wrong!!  To be a little more polite -- Everybody has some good points and some bad points. There is a middle ground and a way the Mfg could really help the consumer, the dealer, and themselves -- all at the same time!!

As a consumer I need a good thorough manual for my tech product (decoder.) If I buy more than one of the products (decoder) or the same category of the products -- I still only need the one manual. If the Mfg were to offer the consumer a choice of manuals at the POP (Point of Purchase) 1) the previously mentioned downloadable manual (free) or 2) purchase from the dealer a printed hard copy of the manual (with its own SKU) for a price ($5.95 or $9.99 or $14.99 or whatever.) WAIT!!!... Wait EVERYbody -- Wait!!... Before all of you jump all over me just let me finish -- you can get the money back!!

After you buy your very FIRST decoder, you could go to the Mfg's website and do a warranty registration and print out a Mfg's refund coupon for the manual price (not a product rebate -- like many of you I despise rebates.) This gives you a free printed manual if you want one and on successive purchases -- no manual cost; unless, you want an extra one for upstairs or downstairs, etc. at your own expense. The Mfg would receive some advantages for doing this -- it would build a warranty database. Also, a user/customer database to announce, show, and promote new products -- or maybe even offer an early bird discount or $$s off coupon for loyal customers (I like to save $$s whenever and wherever possible.)

Think this might be a workable solution?

P.S.: The horse died!! Poor horse -- really took a beating!

[Pruitt]

jktrains,
Ok, Digitrax screwed up with their new Sound Decoder manuals.  However, that still doesn't explain why you think that because their sound decoder manuals aren't complete, that somehow they should also not include installation instructions for anything else.

Have you tried contacting Digitrax?  Maybe they have an idea of how to help you.  Maybe they even have a reason why they don't have a complete sound decoder manual online.  No one here can.  My only guess, coming by way of their random shortages of materials, is that they are swamped with business and can barely keep up with demand.  If that's so they should hire more people, but that's just my guess of what's going on.

And I do so wish that people would stop comparing any DCC product to commercial electronics like alarm clocks, cell phones, cameras, computers, and the like.  As for your digital cameras, let me know when you own more than 20 of the exact same camera (like I own more than 20 of the exact same decoder).  We can discuss the usefulness of camera manuals then.

Brunton,
The "obtuse" part was in referance to "Extending your argument to it's logical conclusion...even installation instructions shouldn't be included with the decoder," that was in your posting above.  Nothing more, nothing less.

There are 36 different Digitrax non-sound decoders currently on their website.  There are 23 different "163" decoders.  There are 6 different "123" decoders.  There are also 3 "143" decoders, 1 "383" and 2 "583" decoders (and one lone DN122K2).  And all of these other than the DN122 program exactly the same way as they are all "Series 3" decoders.  Just not all of them have the same number of functions available (which is the middle number of the decoder).  If you want to program in ditchlights, it should be exactly the same if it's a DN143, a DH163, or a DG583.  Just not a "123" as they don't have enough functions for ditchlights, just headlights.  The Digitrax Decoder Manual covers them all equally.

However, there are 36 different installation manuals  (one for each decoder) but they all have the same decoder manual.  Now can you see the difference? 

My point with the cameras is that most people buy one camera at time.  They buy a Canon, then use it until they break it, lose it, or upgrade to a bigger, better camera.  What they don't do is buy them by the dozen.  Decoders are used in multiple in almost every situation.  Cameras are not.  Therefore, a camera manual is logical to include with every camera, while a decoder manual is not.

Let me give you an example from a different hobby.  I used to play Magic: The Gathering back in college (a card game).  Each deck of 60 cards came with a Rule Book that one almost needed a microscope to read, and I accumulated a big stack of Rule Books.  These days, these decks no longer come with Rule Books, instead they have 15 more cards.  And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have more cards than yet another Rule Book.

A footprint in this case should consider depth and weight, especially if it won't fit in the packaging anymore with an addition 9 pages of info in it (folded in half).  I don't know if it would or not, but it would make it more expensive to manufacturer & ship.  Maybe only a $1 or $2, but still more.

You're comparing decoder manuals or lack thereof to different sizes of cereal boxes?  Sorry, but they are not even close to being the same.  And I'm "stuck on them" because that's what we're talking about...Digitrax decoder manuals.  Not NCE, nor Lenz, not Zimo, just Digitrax.

As I said above there are currently 36 non-sound decoders produced by Digitrax.  Most LHS's that sell Digitrax decoders don't stock all of them, just the ones that sell.  Now how are they to know which will sell (w/ or w/o manual), and how many?  When a customer comes in, will they buy the cheaper w/o manual or the more expensive w/ manual?  And what does the LHS do with the kind that doesn't sell?  I never said it was a "backbreaker", just a headache.

The "why include anything" argument again...  Sigh.    Every DCC device shoud include instructions on how to install it; agreed?  Every DCC device that is meant to be sold singularly or in very low numbers to a single user (command stations, throttles, boosters, stationary decoders, block detectors, etc.) should have a full & complete manual included; agreed?  IMHO, every decoder should only have installation instructions and basic programming instructions because they all have the a). the same manual, & b). are purchased in large numbers.  To include a 35 page manual for every decoder or to expect Digitrax to offer w/ and w/o manual packages is just too much (again, IMHO).

Some librarys will allow downloading to a CD-R, so running back and forth to a library isn't always required in every situation (but some don't have burners, etc.).  One could still get a manual in hard copy from Digitrax, just don't ask me how much they would ask for it (I've never asked).

As for the apology, your post did come across a little strong.  Just be glad you didn't see my post before I edited out the bad things I was thinking!    Seriously, I do that a lot.  I type what I think, then go back and take out the stuff that doesn't pass the "10 minute" test (IOW, 10 minutes after I write it, do I still want to say that?).  Sometimes stuff leaks through which can get me in trouble, but if I don't write what I think to begin with, I find I can't articulate the rest as well.  Still, some of the best posts I've ever written were ones I never posted at all.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

I suspect there are more folks out there who buy decoders onesy-twosy than in bulk packages. Having a whole lot of the same decoders. I'd hazard to guess that you're not the norm in that regard. Last time I read anything on the subject (quite some time ago, admittedly), most modelers don't have 20 or more locos - more like three to six or seven. You, being at the far end of the bell curve, have different requirements than the typical modeler. I'm also farther along the curve than most in terms of number of locos, though not as far along the curve as you.

Note that I keep saying Digitrax only because that's what everyone else is saying. I think the same way regardless of manufacturer. I have nothing against Digitrax - I own some of their decoders and have no issues with them at all.

If a "123" doesn't have the same function set as a "163," then they DON'T program exactly the same way. Maybe common functions program the same, but obviously unique functions (or expanded function sets) don't. Since they're all covered in the same manual, certain sections of that manual apply only to certain decoders, while other s

[simon1966]

Note that I keep saying Digitrax only because that's what everyone else is saying. I think the same way regardless of manufacturer. I have nothing against Digitrax - I own some of their decoders and have no issues with them at all.

Everyone else in this instance happens to be only JKtrains who it turns out has a very legitimate beef regarding the documentation for the new FX sound decoders. I for one, and I think everyone else were discussing the regular DCC decoders.

Not one of the decoder manufacturers supplies anything more than a 2-4 page booklet with a decoder.  They all provide installation instructions and basic operating instructions with the decoder.  Some provide slightly more information in the book than others.  All provide what is necessary to get the decoder into the loco, programmed with the basics and running.

Not one manufacturer provides fully comprehensive instructions for every CV and setting with the decoder.  Digitrax, Soundtraxx, QSI and possibly others provide this information with the aforementioned down-loadable manual.

So this is not a Digitrax only issue and applies to all the manufacturers to a varying degree. It very much came over that Digitrax was somewhat unfairly being singled out in this instance.

Now all I hope is that JKtrains gets the resolution to his very legitimate need quickly.

[yesterdaysradio1]

Hello,

  Why I chose NCE. One handed operation, no knob. It has a thumbwheel.

Very intutive. I explained the control to my 5 year old Grandson one time.

He controls two locos on a 12 x 12 L-shaped dogbone with ease.

He makes the water stops, blows out the cylinders, etc.

He even programs the momentum, etc.

NCE is good enough for me.

Jerry

[Driline]

Hello,

  Why I chose NCE. One handed operation, no knob. It has a thumbwheel.

Very intutive. I explained the control to my 5 year old Grandson one time.

He controls two locos on a 12 x 12 L-shaped dogbone with ease.

He makes the water stops, blows out the cylinders, etc.

He even programs the momentum, etc.

NCE is good enough for me.

Jerry

BLASPHEMY!

Man, those Zephyr Zealots are going to tear you apart

Welcome to the Light Side of the Force! Obi Wan has taught you well.

[simon1966]

This thread never was supposed to be about why anyone chose one particular DCC device over another.  It was supposed to try and explore the apparent animosity that exists between the users of these systems and the possibility that such animosity exists between the companies.  I think in the end the thread has run its course and has actually demonstrated well the way in which these things develop.  Inflammatory comments from one side or another like "Zephyr Zealots" while made in jest are really uncalled for and just simply stir the pot.

I'm sure that users of any of the brands of DCC system read Jerry's reasons for using NCE and shrugged and thought well all those things apply to X system as well. (Substitute any brand name).

Bottom line, all these companies make a good product.  Digitrax for some reason seems to be subject to more attack than others, and as a result gets more vigorous defense than others.  It has been proposed by others that this is simply because they have the larger market share and are therefore more open to attack.  Kind of like the Apple/PC debate.

In the end every one makes a DCC system selection based on their own set of needs.  Ease of use, documentation, throttle design, expandability, price and other factors all influence our decisions.  It is very rare that someone draws the conclusion that they made the wrong decision.  What we have seen time and time again on this forum and also on this very thread is the "My opinion is more valid than your opinion" type dialog.  We are never going to reach a consensus opinion.  As long as we are respectful of each others opinion and perhaps even understand why that opinion has been reached, even if there is no agreement, then we are better off.

Anyway, as the one that started this thread, I would respectfully ask that we just let it drift away into the inner recess of the forum.

Thanks to all that contributed to some lively, sometimes frustrating, but otherwise fun dialog.

[Driline]

Don't lie to yourself Simon. You stirred the pot with this thread.

I stand by my inflammatory comment. You are who you are. Theres no point in denying it. I'm calling all you Zephyr Zealots to come out of the closet now and stand up for your principles.

ALL HAIL DIGITRAX

[selector]

All hail the great DT 400.....

[SpaceMouse]

All hail the great DT 400.....

[jktrains]

DT400

All hail the ProCab - Better display, bigger buttons

[jktrains]

Based on Jerry's post, new marketing slogans

NCE - so simple a 5 yr old can operate it.

Digitrax - so complicated you need an engineering degree to understand it. or - Why spend time running trains when you could be downloading all our manuals!

jktrains

[selector]

DT400

All hail the ProCab - Better display, bigger buttons

You mean (gasp) that size matters?

How many trains can you control simultaneously on them bigger buttons?  My DT 400 has two active throttles on one paddle.

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

[tstage]

Anyway, as the one that started this thread, I would respectfully ask that we just let it drift away into the inner recess of the forum.

As per the wishes of and out of respect for the original poster to this thread: Give it a rest, guys!

Tom

[Anonymous]

>>> snip <<<

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

No.  SIX.   On a PH Pro, anyway.  

[rrinker]

Based on Jerry's post, new marketing slogans

NCE - so simple a 5 yr old can operate it.

Digitrax - so complicated you need an engineering degree to understand it. or - Why spend time running trains when you could be downloading all our manuals!

jktrains

 Everyone knows kids these days are far better with electronic things than grownups. The REAL proof of ease-of-use was that I was in one lesson train my 60+ year old father in law to use the Zephyr with no coaching. He fires it up and runs trains without my help.

 

                                        --Randy
 

[rrinker]

>>> snip <<<

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

No.  SIX.   On a PH Pro, anyway.  

 Yeah but only one is under control at a time. The other 5 are just running with no direct user control. On the DT400 you can have two under active control at the same time, meaning you can control speed/direction/functions without pressing a RECALL button or any other manipulation. And the recall list ont he DT400 can e set as high as 16 if you are silly enough to want this, although that was another thread where we discussed that it is nearly pointless because even with 4 digit addressing it is actually less button pushing just to key in the address instead of scrolling through 6 or 16 locos in a recall stack. That's another one of those 'features' I tried just to see what it did and haven't used it since, when I switch between locos i just press the address which is the cab number. If I'm switching between a set two locos I just call one up on the left knob and one on the right.

 

                                                     --Randy
 

[Anonymous]

>>> snip <<<

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

No.  SIX.   On a PH Pro, anyway.  

 Yeah but only one is under control at a time. The other 5 are just running with no direct user control. On the DT400 you can have two under active control at the same time, meaning you can control speed/direction/functions without pressing a RECALL button or any other manipulation. And the recall list ont he DT400 can e set as high as 16 if you are silly enough to want this, although that was another thread where we discussed that it is nearly pointless because even with 4 digit addressing it is actually less button pushing just to key in the address instead of scrolling through 6 or 16 locos in a recall stack. That's another one of those 'features' I tried just to see what it did and haven't used it since, when I switch between locos i just press the address which is the cab number. If I'm switching between a set two locos I just call one up on the left knob and one on the right.

 

                                                     --Randy
 

Oh, grow up!  Perhaps you mis-spoke, but your statement was wrong (not that anybody really cares), and you're too childish to admit it.  All we get is "yeah, but . . ."  and a shift of subject, just like my 6-year old grandson.

[tstage]

You guys are worse than the Energizer bunny...

[SpaceMouse]

Based on Jerry's post, new marketing slogans

NCE - so simple a 5 yr old can operate it.

Digitrax - so complicated you need an engineering degree to understand it. or - Why spend time running trains when you could be downloading all our manuals!

jktrains

My 8-year-old autistic son can run the Digitrax--and forget explaining anything to him.

So if a 5 year-old can run an NCE and an 8-year-old autistic kid can run the Digitrax, what's that say about you old-cusses that can't run one or the the other?

[Driline]

DT400

All hail the ProCab - Better display, bigger buttons

You mean (gasp) that size matters?

How many trains can you control simultaneously on them bigger buttons?  My DT 400 has two active throttles on one paddle.

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

I think this "size matters" comment should be scientifically explored. What say we get the wifes/girlfriends to comment on this most important subject.

Oh yea.....what were we talking about?

Oh yes....DT400 size vs. NCE powercab size........

[rrinker]

>>> snip <<<

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

No.  SIX.   On a PH Pro, anyway.  

 Yeah but only one is under control at a time. The other 5 are just running with no direct user control. On the DT400 you can have two under active control at the same time, meaning you can control speed/direction/functions without pressing a RECALL button or any other manipulation. And the recall list ont he DT400 can e set as high as 16 if you are silly enough to want this, although that was another thread where we discussed that it is nearly pointless because even with 4 digit addressing it is actually less button pushing just to key in the address instead of scrolling through 6 or 16 locos in a recall stack. That's another one of those 'features' I tried just to see what it did and haven't used it since, when I switch between locos i just press the address which is the cab number. If I'm switching between a set two locos I just call one up on the left knob and one on the right.

 

                                                     --Randy
 

Oh, grow up!  Perhaps you mis-spoke, but your statement was wrong (not that anybody really cares), and you're too childish to admit it.  All we get is "yeah, but . . ."  and a shift of subject, just like my 6-year old grandson.

 

 Kindly explain where I am wrong in stating that while you can have 6 locos int he recall stack, you cna only actively control one. There is only one throttle thumbwheel. And change of subject? The subject was the ability to have 2 locos under control with a single DT400 and the 6-loco recall stack of the PH Pro throttle. I believe my reply addressed that subject and only that subject.

 

                      --Randy
 

[Anonymous]

>>> snip <<<

I'm sure those bigger buttons are nice, but if you only have one potentiometer/encoder, then you are limited to maybe two locos by clicking back and forth.

 

Good Grief!  Maybe you didn't type exactly what you meant, but this was your statement, and it is simply wrong.  My only point was, the number is six, not two.   Period.   Give it up.