I have a fair sized L-shaped layout in N-scale. I currently have a three track hidden staging yard and a town stop with three spurs to work. I have imagined a yard at the other end of the layout but while thinking about multiple operators and car forewarding I may decide to go without a real clasification yard.
My goal is to keep 4 operators busy but I am afraid that a yard plus industries would be too much for one operator or two would have to work side by side and kind of trip over each other. I will have at least two to three mainline operators and locals will most likely work the small town. I would like to be able to have two hour operating sessions so I need to have more spurs to serve for car destinations.
I am not looking for specific design decisions but just some sharing of knowledge and experience. I would like to have enough car destinations to constitute having the car cards.
Any thoughts?
P.S. Check out my www below to see the area in question. Its the blank plywood area with three tracks running through it.They were to be arrival/departure tracks in the yard.
John
Here are the two theories I have been considering:
Have trains originate and terminate in staging with no yard. I could run through trains and a local in each dirrection. The staging is through staging there is no reversing on the layout. I would have off layout destinations and the two towns would be where all the switching would be done. No engine facilities.
Have some trains originate in staging and some in a yard. Now one dedicated yardmaster would have to keep up( this is usually a bottleneck ), and fewer industries at the same location would be available. This would create a cramped area for the layout and the operators. I would have to make room for engine facilities and such. I know this creates some interest but is it worth it?
To me, you are asking if you should buy apples and oranges, or just the oranges. Naturally, my answer would be "yes."
Having just intalled a yard for the first time ever, I can honestly ask myself, "What were you thinking!?" It adds a wonderful and interesting dimension to the MRR experience, and it looks cool, to boot. Staging in many cases is something entirely different, and its separate nature usually means that it is consigned to a hidden place.
Ask yourself this question: what else would I do with the area in question, and how will that decision enhance or at least affect my layout's overall utility, and how will that affect the staging that I already have?
If Mouse gets into this conversation, I know what he'll say. Ya gotta have staging....period. So, since you have that, a major contributor to interest and fun is a yard....which you don't have.
You got have staging...period....uh what were we talking about.
The reason for the yard would be personal. My choice would be to put it in because when you are making up trains for staging you won't have to use your fingers. You also have an added factor for when you are operating by yourself.
Having operated a yard at a big op session with another person I can say that you get in each others way all the time. I can also say that fast and furious switching and getting trains ready for others to put on runs was more fun than anything else I've ever done in ops.
You gotta have a yard, period. Just my opinion. You can always put across the yard throat a yellow and black barrier with "CLOSED FOR THE SEASON" written on it.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I did tell you...didn't I?
(he, he)
Oh, and about the yard? Ya gotta have the yard.
By the way, I forewent (yeesh!) staging for my current layout, and thanks to a recent non-MRR visitor's brilliance, have a solution to my stupidity. I will use an industrial track to leave the layout altogether and place a temporary/removable staging yard comprising used EZ-Track and turnouts from my old layout on a nearby entertainment unit that just happens to have a clear top.
But, I have the yard, you see....
Staging yards are a must, on even small layouts. They add an entirely new dimension to the layout apart from running the same trains constantly. Smaller layouts actually benefit more from staging yards than do large ones with one or more division point yards, since you can store entire trains off site.
"Real" yards, on the other hand, are definitely NOT required for a "real" layout, nor are they always desirable. Yards take up a huge amount of space that's often better utilized by adding another town with industrial switching opportunities. While having a lard complete with an enginehouse may seem neat, they're usually quickly downgraded to nothing more than online staging and storage areas, especially on more casual layouts that don't support intense operating sessions.
My last two layouts featured complete division point yards. While well designed and useful, I rarely actually used them except for the rare op session. Usually, I operated the layouts myself on a casual basis and ignored the yard completely in favor for running trains along the mainline and local town switching.
My new layout, currently in the design phase, will have NO yards at all. Instead, the two level, point to point layout will feature two smallish cities with lots of industrial switching (and interchanges), linked by some rural mainline running. Each endpoint city will duck into a hidden staging yard. The plan is to be able to run either a solo op session with a local way freight, or a more intense op session with multiple operators running several town switch jobs and mainline through freights. While there are many operators around who like working yards, I've found that most runners (myself included) prefer signing up for the local freight jobs; my layout will basically support ONLY those sorts of jobs!
So ask yourself WHY you want a large yard on your layout. Are you doing it because everyone else has one, or does your operating scheme really require one? Or do you really LIKE operating yards over running on the mainline?
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Ray, I believe I understand you, and I know that you are speaking from a wealth of experience. Permit me to say that since I have never had a yard, actually getting to use one that is front and centre, right above my DB 150, it is such a pleasure to not have to send an entire train around the main. I did that on my last layout, and I wanted a grand main for this one, too. But the yard, to me, is a nugget of concentration and fun. Switching is fun!
I do agree that a yard can, and yes probably does, get relegated to a seldom-used status over time in many plans. Too bad, because they are a welcome change, to this neophyte, from the eventual drudgery of watching locmotives at pace.
I do see your points, though, and will have to re-read your comment and consider them again after I post this.
-Crandell
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I can't say it surprises me to say I'm more of mind like Ray than Larry. If I had a 2 x 4 switching layout, I might have 2 1x8 staging yards--one on each side.
However, I'm going to second guess Larry and say that for all intents and purposes, your yard could be staging--you just have to make up the train first.
Chip,You're about half right.. You see I prefer to yard my train and park the engines in the engine service track even if that no more then a single track with or without a engine house.
I then prefer to make up a new local to start the"day" off rather then seeing the same train with the same engines and cars over and over and ditto for the locals train consist.
One of my best design layout started with the crew heading for the interchange track to pickup their cars..The crew returned to the 3 track yard and put their train in working order per the industry order by waybill. Some times the crew would leave the yard light and return with 2 or 3 cars which they would drop at the interchange track before heading to the yard..I had 12 industries on this around 3 walls industrial switching layout and 6 different operating plans.
The yard's role was to hold overflow cars for the industries and hold empty home road cars, lease Railbox,RailGon and UTLX tank cars.
A yard is the heart of any railroad.
My opinion:
Staging yards - yes, must have, the more staging the better. If you think you need room for 4 trains, put 8. You can never have enough because you will never stop buying new equipment.
Classification yards - The only reason I have a classification yard is to sort cars. I have local trains returning to my main town of Deming, NM. All cars on these trains need to be placed on a main line train going to either Hurley, NM or El Paso, TX. The yard enables me to sort these cars by destination. If you do not need to sort cars, no yard is necessary. Remember, this is just my opinion.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
BRAKIE wrote: I then prefer to make up a new local to start the"day" off rather then seeing the same train with the same engines and cars over and over and ditto for the locals train consist.
This is not my view of staging either in theory or practice. If you have a classification yard or yards in concert with the staging, then the trains are made up for staging as the cars are available from the industries. The order and make up of the cars in the staged trains changes with each operating session. Hense the locals made up each day are different.
There are limitations. I have only so many cars and so many engines. The car cards only have 4 sides. But even so, there is a lot of variation.
This is why I think a yard is a good idea in Spidge's case. He clearly has room, but he doesn't see the value.
I don't know if this will help your decision or not but our club layout has three major yards and one minor yard. One of the major yards is hidden track and hence the staging area. We currently operate point-to-point between the other two major yards. There are nine towns in between. Under the current scheme the staging area sits idle and vacant, while trains going point-to-point just pass through on the main lines.
Another large layout I regularly operate on has no yards at all. All trains through and local originate in a single staging area. It has five towns and a branch.
Whether an operator picks up a train from the departure track of a classification yard or the departure track of a staging area is irrelevant.
If I am reading the original post correctly (I looked at the pictures but they didn't tell me much) it sounds like there is currently only a staging area and a single town with three sidings in it. I think it is going to take a quite a bit of work to get four operators busy for two hours. Unless they are just taking through train, after through train, after through train in laps around the layout.
1. How long does it take to get a non-stop through train from staging to staging? 2. Is there no way to make the staging area into a working yard to keep one operator busy breaking/making up every through train?3. How compliated is the switching area? If it is all trailing point an experienced operator will yawn. Are there "internal" switching moves planned for the town.
It sounds to me like you need more areas to keep a local busy rather than a place to makeup and break uptrains that really seem to have no "place" to go.
Well, there has been a few assumptions while I was away. It seems someone is not aware of the three track hidden staging yard and another that thinks I may not know the value of a yard. I do value a yard and have had layouts with and without. I do prefer to have a yard but at what expense to overall fun for all operators. Maybe thats part of the exitement for people when they come to run the schedule, what job will they get and what do they have to do to earn that treasured spot. I have operated both yards on the Alturas and Lonepine many years ago and yes I had a blast.
I agree that the yard is usually the desired job. I was expecting some opinions on weighing the advantages of more switching for everyone verses one town for locals and a busy yard. So far I am leaning towards keeping the yard idea in place and adding a few industries around it.
I am thinking three clasification tracks, one through main, 2 arrival/departure, caboose, engine service, rip track, and a lead to maybe three or four industries. This would require a yardmaster and a helper to take care of the industries and be the hostler for locos. So you can see I do have a plan, I just wanted re-assurance or opnions to maybe come up with better possiblities.
Thanks a bunch for the opinions and I do sense the pasion each of you have for your position.
I had a friend a while back who had a layout that was a yard over staging, with nothing else. When I first saw it I could not imagine how it would be fun to operate. I had the best time! It was never the same and he could have a lot of stuff going on at once. I never remember running into anyone and there were a bunch of us. I highly recommend a yard, whatever the size.
Oh, and don't do anything without staging.
Ray and Texas Zephyr seem to have the jist of what I am getting at.
There is a three track through yard hidden that cannot be accessed for 0-5-0 help. The idea is to not touch the trains or cars at all.to give you some idea of time based on a 6:1 fast clock it starts in staging-2 minutes to Colton-8 minutes to the summitt passing track-7 minutes to the town(victorville)-4 minutes to staging. This is all based on 40 mph and overall length is 78 smiles est. Now my math may be off so tread lightly on those numbers.
There would be at least two mainline operators who would have to deal with meats and set outs and pick ups, the YM and most likely a helper, and maybe a local out and back. The staging will hold three 25 car+/- trains (too big for my sidings) so I was thinking I could hold 6 short maybe 7-10 car trains.
SpaceMouse wrote:[back-pedaling] I meant you didn't see the value of a yard on THIS layout[/back-pedaling]
SM, sorry man I did not intend to get you fired up.
Actually, I did get it. I just like yards.
But TZ and Ray are right. You have to decide where your interests lie. And your compromise--three track yard and industries--is a good one. That is, unless you feel you will miss the added industries.
spidge wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:[back-pedaling] I meant you didn't see the value of a yard on THIS layout[/back-pedaling]SM, sorry man I did not intend to get you fired up.
That's okay. I decided on a layout plan a couple weeks ago. Now I'm going to go back and see if I can't squeak a little more yard out of it.
SpaceMouse wrote: BRAKIE wrote: I then prefer to make up a new local to start the"day" off rather then seeing the same train with the same engines and cars over and over and ditto for the locals train consist.This is not my view of staging either in theory or practice. If you have a classification yard or yards in concert with the staging, then the trains are made up for staging as the cars are available from the industries. The order and make up of the cars in the staged trains changes with each operating session. Hense the locals made up each day are different. There are limitations. I have only so many cars and so many engines. The car cards only have 4 sides. But even so, there is a lot of variation. This is why I think a yard is a good idea in Spidge's case. He clearly has room, but he doesn't see the value.
Chip,I fully believe a working yard coupled to staging yards is the ticket to some super ops sessions..
Sadly I have witness the same trains rolling out of stagging-here comes that "Humping To Please" Pig again,here comes those 5 BNSF boxcars again..See what I mean? On the other hand a Amtrak or any passenger train can get by using the same cars as can unit trains such as coal,auto racks,auto parts,grain stack etc..See the difference between a regular freight and a unit train? Also by leaving out cars that is easy to pick out helps as well..Instead of that "Humping To Please" Trailer way not (say) a USPS trailer? You see our eyes and mind will not recall that trailer as easily as the "Humping To Please" trailer because it doesn't call attention to its self.
Ok Larry, so what you are proposing is maybe have a unit train or two and everything else would originate and terminate in the on layout yard. The session could represent only the first half of the day so I could get away with open loads in one dirrection and no empties seen in the other. The staging is very close to the yard so the yard helper could pull trains from staging and the YM would have to tear it down and re-classify.This way the raod crew would not have seen the train that went into staging on the other end come out again on the oposite side.The same would go for trains heading into staging from the yard. Sounds like the yard is becoming very busy( good thing ).
Is this your intention.
With 2 staging yards the empties can run from stagging to stagging as they rumble back to the mines.A general freight could terminate at the working yard or it to could rumble from stagging to stagging and it could stop at the working yard to drop off or pick up cars then rumble on while the next freight would terminate in the yard.This train would be replace with a train that originates in the yard.A coal marshaling yard would be nice as well as empty coal trains could terminate here..Of course between ops the empty/loaded coal train would need to be staged for the next ops.Another thought would be a loads in/empties out power plant.You can leave the loads in the power plants yard for their switcher to pick up and of course the empties would be picked up.All this requires is 2-4 tracks as long as your unit train.
Yes the train could terminate in the yard and reclassified..After the train is ready power is added and a "crew" called to run it to stagging..This "crew" could be the stagging yard operator that brings trains in and off the modeled division.Your road crew would mark off when the train arrives in the model yard.
The key is for the layout being design for operations and operated as a transportation system..
spidge wrote:There would be at least two mainline operators who would have to deal with meats [sic meets].
A young couple goes into the real estate office. They tell the real estate agent (REA) they want a house with 16 bedrooms, 15 bathrooms, formal dining room, entertaining parlor, 2 home offices, his-n-hers walk-in closets, a walkin luggage room, kitchen fitted with 8 burner double convection oven commercial range, double dishwashers, sub zero refridgerator, extra large capacity freezer, an automated self-contained wine management center, and finally, last but not least, a home theater with capacity to entertain at least 25 friends. The garage must be able to store their 4 cars, the SUV, the boat, the 48' camper, Ski-doos and Sea-doos.
The REA says come back tomorrow. They return the next day. She takes them to see a house. She pulls up in front of a large victorian. The house is 10' from the road. The husband asks "where's the yard?". The REA ignores the question.... SHe takes them in and shows them half of their requirements. The husband says "how about in the back...is there a yard?". The REA takes them out and wisks them into a four car garage. It's a bit small she says, but would it do? "well, lets see, where's the yard?" She points to a small patch of grass under a large oak tree about 10'x10'. He says "is this the yard?"
The next day she takes them to another victorian. 'This gem', she says, 'was built in 1868'. It has all you are looking for. He notes the house is 5' from the road. "Where's the yard?" he asks concertedly. She by-passes his question and ushers them inside. Sure enough, there were 16 BR, 15 BA, Formal DR, entertaining parlor, 2 home offices, walkin:his, hers, luggage, outfitted kitchen, and the home theater in the basement so large they could charge admission. But, he asked, "where's the yard?'. right outside the backdoor was a carriage house/converted to gargage. It would hold all their toys. "where's the yard?" he asked again.
"there isn't any." the REA responded. "In order to get you all you want in a house, there is no room for a yard left over".
The moral of the story???? Always leave room for a yard. Find room for a yard.
I am building a space-limited 3'x5' HO layout. I think I will manage to add another 3-4" to the long side. I have always planned to have an addition of 12-16" x 30-36" hinged and removeable yard- staging or fiddling -or "permanent". It may be small.....but its a yard!!!!!
"where's the yard?"
Right here!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Oh man, and I just started a thread without seeing this one.
GOOD THREAD! Now I gotta armchair think some more this weekend.
Texas Zepher wrote: spidge wrote:There would be at least two mainline operators who would have to deal with meats [sic meets]. How many passing tracks are there other than the town with the industries in it?
TZ, the sequence on the layout goes like this; 3-track staging---yard---to sunnitt passing track---town w/passing track and industries----back into staging.
spidge wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: spidge wrote:There would be at least two mainline operators who would have to deal with meats [sic meets]. How many passing tracks are there other than the town with the industries in it? the sequence on the layout goes like this; 3-track staging---yard---to sunnitt passing track---town w/passing track and industries----back into staging.