Return to Pleasure/Vista Dome

[Anonymous]

A few newbie questions for the MRR historians: 

1.) The vista dome in the roof of the passenger cars I own are usually off center.  Did these passenger cars run forward with the dome typically more towards the front or back of the car?

2.) I know the Cal Zephyr had five vista dome passenger cars in its consist.  I have a number of Vista Dome Passenger cars (Burlington CB&Q, Santa Fe, Rock Island, C&O).  I've seen these dome cars manufactured in a wide variety of road names (20+).  Did this many different RRs actually use these vista dome cars or do some manufacturers just produce these for so many road names because they are interesting and sell?

[Texas Zepher]

1.) The vista dome in the roof of the passenger cars I own are usually off center.  Did these passenger cars run forward with the dome typically more towards the front or back of the car?

It totally depended on the design of the car.  The Santa Fe's Pullman Standard Vista dome ran dome to the rear.  Which by the way was always connected directly to the kitchen side of the dining car so that the Turquoise Room under the dome could be served easily.    The Budd dome coaches in the California Zephyr, North Coast Limited, and Empire Builder ran with the dome section first.   The Budd beaver tail observation cars of the CZ and CP ran with the dome to the rear.

2.) I know the Cal Zephyr had five vista dome passenger cars in its consist.

Yes, but they weren't all the same.  There were three dome coaches (one regular, one with a women and children section, and one with  a conductor space), then there was the dome/lounge, and the dome obervation at the end. 

I have a number of Vista Dome Passenger cars (Burlington CB&Q, Santa Fe, Rock Island, C&O).  I've seen these dome cars manufactured in a wide variety of road names (20+).  Did this many different RRs actually use these vista dome cars or do some manufacturers just produce these for so many road names because they are interesting and sell?

Many railroads had domes, but as you guessed many of the ones painted up by model railroading manufacturers are pure fiction.

There are some really intersting stories about dome cars.  The Northern Pacific used to seasonally lease domes to the Illinois Central.  So depending on the schedule from time to time the North Coast Limited could be be seen with a brown/orange dome or duplex sleeper in it, or vice/versa.

The Great Northern completely re-did the Empire Builder in 1950-1951 calling it the Mid-Century Builder.  They purposely did not include domes thinking(arrogantly) their quality of service was sufficient to remain the leader in the Northwest without the domes. In other words they basically said, "we don't need no stinking domes."  However, they soon found ridership dropping and had to rejuvinate the train with domes and another $6,000,000 in 1955 to stay in competition.

[Anonymous]

I would think that the domes were kept to the rear so that they dont have to wash the cinders off the glass from the steamers.

If RAPIDO did a Dome, I would be seriously tempted to order one, fictional or not.

[Texas Zepher]

I would think that the domes were kept to the rear so that they dont have to wash the cinders off the glass from the steamers.

Very few domes ran behind steamers.  I have a photo of one of the pre-California Zephyr domes on the WP behind a Mikado.  I believe the Milwalkee ran them behind the 4-6-4s, but even behind diesels the domes were often washed in-route.  The California Zephyr got washed here in Denver.

[jpwc50]

In general, most major roads west of the Mississippi ran domes. A few midwest roads ran them, Wabash, IC and L&N. In the east, I believe only B&O/C&O ran them(special low clearance domes). PRR ran them on the South Wind(Chi-Mia) in the 60's but they were either lettered for L&N or leased from one of the western carriers(GN I think).

[RedGrey62]

Texas Zephyr is right on the money.  The CB&Q had some running dome forward (mostly coaches) and some running backwards, (DZ dome buffet and home built dome coaches).  Even the domed observation cars had some with the dome forward (Twin Cities Zephyr and Kansas City Zephyr) and some with the domes to the rear (CZ, Ak Sar Ben Zephyr and Denver Zephyr).  Best thing is to check pictures of the train you're modelling to see which way they faced.  I think many people run them dome to the rear as it looks more asthetically pleasing.

Rick 

[msowsun]

 

Here is a photo of the CPR "Canadian". If you look closely you can see 2 dome coaches near the fornt of the train running with the domes to the rear as they always did on CPR. (It was unusual to have 2 of these cars in one train on the CPR) 

When VIA Rail inherited these cars from CPR, they reversed the direction so that the dome was now in the front.

Here is an excellent website for more info on dome cars:

 http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Great stuff guys, thank a lot!

Texas Zephyr is right on the money.  The CB&Q had some running dome forward (mostly coaches) and some running backwards, (DZ dome buffet and home built dome coaches).  Even the domed observation cars had some with the dome forward (Twin Cities Zephyr and Kansas City Zephyr) and some with the domes to the rear (CZ, Ak Sar Ben Zephyr and Denver Zephyr).  Best thing is to check pictures of the train you're modelling to see which way they faced.  I think many people run them dome to the rear as it looks more asthetically pleasing.

Rick 

I been running my CB&Q to the rear both because thats what looked better to me and because for whatever reason they ran more reliably that way.  I may have to work on reversing one or more of the dome cars.  Unfortunately the pics I have of the trains I modeled are individual blow up shots parked in a station so you really can't tell which way their heading.

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

CB&Q had the first dome cars for streamlined trains. They modified two early Budd coaches with flat glass domes.  These cars had offset domes and were operated the domes offset to the rear of the car. They served most of their careers as the leading dome car on the Twin Cities Zephyrs. I road them long ago (obviously) on the TCZ behind an E5's and/or E7's. 

[Anonymous]

[cut]

Here is an excellent website for more info on dome cars:

 http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/

Great site.  My Burlingtons look to be very authentic "Denver Zephyrs".  However my CRI&P, "La Mesa" looks to be fiction.  If my short surf was correct I don't even think CRI&P had any domes.

[jrbernier]

  The dome cars was basically run depending of loading patterns.   The original 'pattern' dome cars on the Burlington were run many times with the dome to the rear, and the vestibule forward.  The Budd delivered dome coaches and dome sleepers(GN & NP also) ran with the dome forward and the vestibule to the rear.  The vestibule on the coaches was to the  rear for the most part.  The dome buffet dorm cars also ran with the dome to the forward position, but had no vestibule.  The dome observations sort of had this position reversed as the vestibule was forward in the consist.  Many times 'flat top' sleepers had the vestibule forward or 'paired' with a dome sleeper so that only one set of doors could service arrivals/departures.

  Other railroads ran their domes in a manner that fitted their operations.  CPR ran their mid-train domes to the rear.  The Rock Island only operated a single dome car(a leased ex-C&O/D&RGW dome observation on the back of the 'Quad Cities Rocket').

  As mentioned, the IC leased NP dome sleepers in the winter for Florida service, and they were re-painted in IC brown/orange for that servece.  In the spring they would be returned and repainted in the NP 'Lowey' green paint scheme.  When I worked for the Burlingtion in the late 60's, I would see the 'IC' dome sleepers in the NP 3rd St coach yard before they were re-painted.

Jim

[jimrice4449]

A couple of corrections.   First the NP/IC domes were dome/sleepers, the only ones built other than a one of a kind for the Train Of Tomorrow and dome/sleeper/obs, were actually repainted twice year.   Pics show them brown and orange on the IC and 2 tone green on the NP.   I''d be curious if anybody knows how they were lettered in winter service on the IC.  It's highly unlikely the Milw ran their Super Domes behind steam as they weren't delivered until late 1952.   To the best of my knowledge the RRs operating domes in the east were B&O and IC, and FEC forwarding IC cars to Miami.  I've never heard of L&N, other than on IC Florida trains, but they might well have worked a deal in conjunction w/ the NP/IC deal.

     In the Midwest CB&Q, Wabash, MP and in the West, UP, DRGW, WP, Milw, GN, NP, ATSF,SP.

An interesting feature of the CB&Q dome/obs is that there were two levels of roofs.   The roof ahead of the dome was the normal hight but behind the dome the roof was slightly elevated to provide more head room in the lounge section.

[gmpullman]

An interesting feature of the CB&Q dome/obs is that there were two levels of roofs.   The roof ahead of the dome was the normal hight but behind the dome the roof was slightly elevated to provide more head room in the lounge section.

Yes, Quite true about the roofline being about 4" higher toward the obs end. The same held true of the CP "Park" series Budd Dome Observations. It's all about the details.

I believe the original poster was actually asking about the dome itself being off center in the position of the car length. The simple answer is run the dome so the seats face the forward direction of the train!   One experience I had always wished for was to ride in one of the UP's Dome Diners where dinner was served in the dome section. I was fortunate to have enjoyed dinner in the Turquoise Room of the Super Chief but as previously noted, that was under the dome...

[jecorbett]

Even the domed observation cars had some with the dome forward (Twin Cities Zephyr and Kansas City Zephyr) and some with the domes to the rear (CZ, Ak Sar Ben Zephyr and Denver Zephyr). 

Interesting I had never seen Aksarben broken up into three words like that. Is that how CB&Q listed it in their time tables? Probably few people outside of Nebraska are aware that Aksarben is actually Nebraska spelled backwards. There is an Aksarben race track in Omaha that my dad used to work at during the summer when he was on the faculty at Creighton University. I believe there was also an Aksarben civic association and the naming of their king and queen was always a big deal with the media every year. 

[Texas Zepher]

the NP/IC domes ..., were actually repainted twice year.   Pics show them brown and orange on the IC and 2 tone green on the NP.

True, I didn't intend to leave the impression they ran in the "wrong" colors all season long.  The "time to time" I was talking about was the short amount of time from when they were pressed into service and the time they hit the paint shop.   As far as the reporting marks are concerned, I'll have to start looking closely at IC photos and see if we can solve the mystery.  It would be sort of cool for modeling purposes if they really say NP xxxx. 

[RedGrey62]

Interesting I had never seen Aksarben broken up into three words like that. Is that how CB&Q listed it in their time tables? Probably few people outside of Nebraska are aware that Aksarben is actually Nebraska spelled backwards. There is an Aksarben race track in Omaha that my dad used to work at during the summer when he was on the faculty at Creighton University. I believe there was also an Aksarben civic association and the naming of their king and queen was always a big deal with the media every year. 

Aksarben racetrack is gone, county sold and donated the land to First Data Corp and University of Nebraska at Omaha.  Story goes that Aksarben came from things being so messed up one year, they (whoever "they" are) spelled it backwards and it stuck.

On another note, I heard that the roof was higher on the observation cars to provide more clearance for people using the staircase to access the dome.  It seems to pan out in the drawings, but some dome buffet cars had the stairs access in the lowered roof section.

Rick

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

A railfan has just taken these pictures of the Denver Zephyr rolling into "Prairie View" on my ficticious Heartland Division.  In the first photo, you can see a dome coach in the train, and in the second photo, you can see the the dome observation car.

The cars are pre-Walthers Budd cars and pre-BLI Cal Zephyr.  The dome observation is kitbashed from a Con Cor coach and a Model Power observation. That car is hardly a prize winner but works for me. (My "to do list" includes replacing these cars with newer models, but not now.  Fits into my operations just fine.)

CB&Q's Budd domes were mostly dome coaches.  They had some dome buffet coaches and some dome buffet dormitory cars.  CB&Q observations were of four groups. California Zephyr dome obs had round ends, dome offset to rear, parlor seating with bar in rear, and sleeping compartments forward. Denver Zephyr domes obs had blunt ends, but otherwise were similar to CZ's. Twin City Zephyr dome obs had round ends, dome offeset to forward, and parlor seating throughout. Kansas City Zephyr dome obs had blunt ends, but otherwise were similar to TCZ's.

 

[Texas Zepher]

A railfan has just taken these pictures of the Denver Zephyr rolling into "Prairie View" on my ficticious Heartland Division.  In the first photo, you can see a dome coach in the train, and in the second photo, you can see the the dome observation car.

So what year was this photo taken?   I noticed the locomotives are running tail to tail.  I've noticed in many photos in the earlier years (Burlington Color Pictoral Volume #1) the locomotives were run in this fashion.  However, in later years all the photos (Railroads of Chicago book and Video volume #1) seem to show locos running nose to tail or elephant style.  I've even read somewhere that the Q prefered this style.   Do you know if it is true, and if so when did they come to this decision?

[RedGrey62]

It is true that the Q preferred "elephant style" running on their motors, it seems it was always that way.  I don't recall seeing too many pictures or videos where the Q ran them tail to tail..  Somewhere I have an explanation from someone off of the BRHSlist.  One reason I've seen is that the Q combined many of its passenger trains, once they reach the location where they are to split, the motors are already pointing in the right direction and the train can be broken down into its two parts.  Also, notice that you don't see any B units on the Q E's.  They had a E5B and that was it, everything else was A units.

Rick

P.S.  Nice kitbash on the DZ blunt end observation.  This has got to be the hardest car to find, it was produced in brass but I've never seen one for sale after the release.

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Thru the '50's Q tended to operate E units back to back. In the '60's more trains were combined and the elephant style was the common practice. This was especially the case with trains to/from Chicago where E8's and E9's also hauled commuter trains.  (Actually E5's and E7's did haul suburbans, too, especially prior to the 1960's.) A long-disatnce train would arrive in Chicago with 4 E8's & E9's and the locos could quickly be placed in suburban service.

You can date the E units with nose stripes. CB&Q changed the stripes from black to red about 1960.

Burlington's E units had MU connections on their front ends nearly from the beginning.  F units on the other hand did not have MU connections on their fronts with only a very small number of exceptions. Therefore, the cab units for FT's, F2's, F3's and F7's were nearly always the lead or trailing units in a locomotive consist.  Sometimes, GP units or SD units would be MU'd between cab unit F's.

Thanks for the complement on the DZ observation.  On my fictious layout, by the way, I call my DZ a fictious name - the Prairie Zephyr.  I practice "plausible realism".

Most E5's were transferred to Colorado subsidiaries: C&S and FW&D.  There were several E5B's as well as E5A's involved.

 

[Texas Zepher]

the Prairie Zephyr.  I practice "plausible realism".

I have a "Desert Zephyr" that competes head to head with the UP Desert Rose.  It departs Denver to the south on the joint line to Colorado Springs then through the mountains over the old Colorado Midland line that the CB&Q aquired after WWI.  (This is silly if one really thinks about it as the Colorado Midland paralleled the D&RGW from Glenwood Springs to Grand Junction.  In fact, when I-70 was built the D&RGW was relocated onto the old Midland grade going west out of Grand Junction.   This means if this were real geography, my Desert Zephyr could leave Denver two and a half hours before the California Zephyr and then still end up runing side by side with it from Glenwood to the Utah boarder! Which is why the D&RGW liked the Dotsero cutoff so much, because their Royal Gorge was even further south than my Ute Pass.).

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Hello Texas Zephyr. I was interested in reading of your Desert Zephyr.  We rode the Amtrak CZ thru Colorado in 2005.  Still a neat trip but dome cars would be better. 

My layout has all ficticious towns.  Then I can simulate operartions of the old Burlington by substituting my towns for actual stations as I choose.  Or I just run between my towns with my schedules. My three daily trains (east/west) are the Heartland Zephyr (morning departures), Prairie Zephyr (early afternoon departures), and the Twilight Zephyr (early evening departures). Normally, they are all "pike sized" with single E7's, E8's, or E9's.  I mix up the equipment a bit for interest and include through cars from connections (NP, GN, etc.).  Scheduled passenger trains include head-end cars for mail and express.  Extra trains include football specials, tourist groups, etc.)