Rather than hijack the thread that prompted this question, I have started a new thread. I have planned to put staging in another room. The question is, how do I control it? It is configured like this:
Each of the 4 staging tracks (not 5 as indicated) will hold two-three short 1885 trains.
As I see it, my choices are:
1) Control my turnouts with ground throws. This would require leaving the operating theater. but, with trains stacked 3 deep, this might be necessary anyway. When one train moves out, the other one or two move up, making room for incoming trains.
2) Control the turnouts with a control panel in the operating theater. This would require an intricate system of block detection ($$), plus some way of tracking which engine (read decoder address) is in which position in the yard. It would also cost a lot more for the turtles.
3) The above with video surveillance. Would have to be able to read loco-numbers 7 feet apart on the same track.
4) DCC control. I'm sure that Randy could think up a way for each decoder address (both engine and fixed) to be tracked and mapped on a computer screen but it beyond me. However, it would be a solution I would consider. Computer tracking and dispatching of trains from staging--what I like is how prototypical it is for 1885 operations. Add stationary decoders to the cost of the turtles and block detection. Randy. touch screen would be nice.
Comments? Suggestions? Have I left anything out?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: Rather than hijack the thread that prompted this question, I have started a new thread. I have planned to put staging in another room. The question is, how do I control it? It is configured like this:Each of the 4 staging tracks (not 5 as indicated) will hold two-three short 1885 trains. As I see it, my choices are:1) Control my turnouts with ground throws. This would require leaving the operating theater. but, with trains stacked 3 deep, this might be necessary anyway. When one train moves out, the other one or two move up, making room for incoming trains.2) Control the turnouts with a control panel in the operating theater. This would require an intricate system of block detection ($$), plus some way of tracking which engine (read decoder address) is in which position in the yard. It would also cost a lot more for the turtles.3) The above with video surveillance. Would have to be able to read loco-numbers 7 feet apart on the same track. 4) DCC control. I'm sure that Randy could think up a way for each decoder address (both engine and fixed) to be tracked and mapped on a computer screen but it beyond me. However, it would be a solution I would consider. Computer tracking and dispatching of trains from staging--what I like is how prototypical it is for 1885 operations. Add stationary decoders to the cost of the turtles and block detection. Randy. touch screen would be nice. Comments? Suggestions? Have I left anything out?
I like option 3 without the block detection, if video resolution is enough to keep from wrecking the trains. A simple panel in the operating area would indicate switch positions and if you use a magnetic material for the panel; simple magnets with loco numbers could be placed on the control panel to show which loco was where (I assume that you will know the number of the loco that you just "parked").
I have on order, 10 IR detectors to use inside my mountains. I will let you know how well they work when they arrive and I get to test them.
One, operate the staging as one way track. (Picture staging as be inside a loop)
Two, near exit of each staging track include a braking section that is controled by a push button on control panel. Track is only powered when button is depressed.
Three, beyond the braking section, use a spring turnout as the exit turnout. Simply press button and hold to allow train to exit.
Four, rig entrance turnouts so only one can be reversed at a time (diode matrix maybe), use push button to select track. Press button to select storage track.
Always include a light in the last car of the train, caboose or passenger car, to allow light on control panel to indicate that the track is occupied.
Have fun
Connect the storage loop to the rest of the layout with a wye so trains can go in either direction.
Chip,
I would lean towards number one. You could almost make it "operating" position all by itself - kind of like the "Mole" on Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado and Western.
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
exPalaceDog wrote: One, operate the staging as one way track. (Picture staging as be inside a loop)Two, near exit of each staging track include a braking section that is controlled by a push button on control panel. Track is only powered when button is depressed. Three, beyond the braking section, use a spring turnout as the exit turnout. Simply press button and hold to allow train to exit.Four, rig entrance turnouts so only one can be reversed at a time (diode matrix maybe), use push button to select track. Press button to select storage track.Always include a light in the last car of the train, caboose or passenger car, to allow light on control panel to indicate that the track is occupied.Have funConnect the storage loop to the rest of the layout with a wye so trains can go in either direction.
Two, near exit of each staging track include a braking section that is controlled by a push button on control panel. Track is only powered when button is depressed.
First, Thanks Alan. You are right. I probably would be able to tell the locos apart visually without being able to read the road numbers.
Dog,
This seems like a pretty intricate system that would work in DC. The idea of independently powered blocks in the yard is intriguing, but I'm not sure needed. I'll ponder that. It is growing on me though. Turning trains is an issue. I planned two tracks (1&4) west and two tracks (2&3) East, but it makes more sense that an engine going to Sacramento would return from Sacramento and not from Virginia City. I know I can fit a TT in the center of the loop, but I doubt a wye will works. Certainly, I can't work in a wye that will turn a train which is really the ideal. But I could close the loop.
With that many trains dynamically moving in and out of staging, you will almost have to assign one operator to that area. So, you will need a control panel in the staging room. However, when you're operating either by yourself or with a small group, you might not need someone there, so the ability to control things remotely is also desireable. Since it's staging, this may argue for cheap twin-coil turnout machines.
Small computer USB video cameras and a cheap computer without a lot of horsepower would allow you to use multiple cameras to cover the staging yard, rather than trying to get the whole picture in one camera. The multiple-camera option would make it easier to read the numbers, because the cameras can be closer to the trains.
As long as that operator is in there anyway, make sure he/she knows how to run the laundry. Might as well get that done at the same time. Throw some bib overalls, red bandanas and striped hats in the wash and say it's part of the Op Session.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Chip,I would lean towards number one. You could almost make it "operating" position all by itself - kind of like the "Mole" on Lee Nicholas' Utah Colorado and Western. -George
I agree.
Ideally, I would like this layout to be operated by 3-4 people. I'd love to find some sort of round-robin group that traveled from layout to layout. But as it is, I feel isolated where I am. We'll see.
MisterBeasley wrote: With that many trains dynamically moving in and out of staging, you will almost have to assign one operator to that area. So, you will need a control panel in the staging room. However, when you're operating either by yourself or with a small group, you might not need someone there, so the ability to control things remotely is also desireable. Since it's staging, this may argue for cheap twin-coil turnout machines.
I have thought about this. I'm planning Fastracks turnouts, I'm sure they can be rigged. But if the operator was there anyway cabboses would be fine.
I have a couple older PII's I could use. Maybe it's time to learn Linux.
Brilliant. This sort of capital will trade well with the CFO when it comes time to expand.
I am in the process of building a staging yard right now in a very similar situation, except that it will be single-ended. I'm a big believer in the KISS principle. Fortunately, I can actually see the entire throat of the staging yard by looking through the "tunnel" from the main layout room. I think this will allow me to operate for the most part without needing to go to the other room -- provided the light is on in the staging room!
I will be controlling the Tortoise switch machines with switches set up so they can be controlled from either room. I'll also provide a set of jacks for the two MRC Controlmaster 20 cabs that I use. The staging tracks will use the contacts on the Tortoises to control track power to each one. I may still need to add some better control for track power, but this will get me started.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
SpaceMouse wrote: Dog,This seems like a pretty intricate system that would work in DC. The idea of independently powered blocks in the yard is intriguing, but I'm not sure needed. I'll ponder that. It is growing on me though.
This seems like a pretty intricate system that would work in DC. The idea of independently powered blocks in the yard is intriguing, but I'm not sure needed. I'll ponder that. It is growing on me though.
1) On the entrance side, put a double gap at the beginning of each staging track. Use power routing turnouts so the train is powered from the ladder until it passes the gap. Track is selected by pushing a button or throwing a switch to control switch machine. Maybe use buttons from an old car radio so only one route can be selected
2) Put a double gap in the staging track one engine length from the exit ladder.
3) The actual staging track can be left powered, when the engine passes the gap into the braking section, it will stop. But by having the last car in the train, caboose or passenger, contain a light, a light can be cut ijnto the circuit to indicate when the track is occuplied.
4) Put a double gap between the exit ladder and the braking section. Use push button to power braking section from exit ladder. Maybe use diodes to prevent power entering braking section if power on exit ladder is the wrong priority.
5) Use springs instead of switch machines on exit ladder so exiting trains can run through the turnout
SpaceMouse wrote: Turning trains is an issue. I planned two tracks (1&4) west and two tracks (2&3) East, but it makes more sense that an engine going to Sacramento would return from Sacramento and not from Virginia City.
Turning trains is an issue. I planned two tracks (1&4) west and two tracks (2&3) East, but it makes more sense that an engine going to Sacramento would return from Sacramento and not from Virginia City.
It depends on your view point. The out and back would fit a branch line. But for a mainline, you might want the freedom to run two or three westbound passenger trains before running an eastbound. If you can hook the staging yard to the main layout with a wye, you can run the east and west bound in any order using the same set of equipment.
SpaceMouse wrote: I know I can fit a TT in the center of the loop, but I doubt a wye will works. Certainly, I can't work in a wye that will turn a train which is really the ideal. But I could close the loop.
I know I can fit a TT in the center of the loop, but I doubt a wye will works. Certainly, I can't work in a wye that will turn a train which is really the ideal. But I could close the loop.
Forget that turntable. The idea is to have the trains appear and disappear with as little operator intervention as possible.
Also note that if you close the loop, you will need to take the appropriate measures for wiring a reverding loop.
Thanks for your time.
I get the wiring. What I was thinking was that since I will be staging 3 trains on the two longest tracks, I would have to create 3 independently powered blocks for those tracks to make your system work. I would also have to allow for each train to move forward when the one before it leaves.
Turning the train might not be that big of an issue. Theoretically, 10 trains will run before the first one repeats it's run.
mlehman wrote: Chip,I am in the process of building a staging yard right now in a very similar situation, except that it will be single-ended. I'm a big believer in the KISS principle. Fortunately, I can actually see the entire throat of the staging yard by looking through the "tunnel" from the main layout room. I think this will allow me to operate for the most part without needing to go to the other room -- provided the light is on in the staging room!I will be controlling the Tortoise switch machines with switches set up so they can be controlled from either room. I'll also provide a set of jacks for the two MRC Controlmaster 20 cabs that I use. The staging tracks will use the contacts on the Tortoises to control track power to each one. I may still need to add some better control for track power, but this will get me started. Since your staging yard is double ended, this power system may not work for you without more wiring complications. But if you can get a window or other view into the staging room good enough to see what's going on, it'll save the cost of CCTV.
Since your staging yard is double ended, this power system may not work for you without more wiring complications. But if you can get a window or other view into the staging room good enough to see what's going on, it'll save the cost of CCTV.
Mike,
There's no reason why your idea wouldn't work on a double-ended siding. You'd have to isolate it anyway. I plan to have throttle jacks at the staging yard no matter what I decide to do. It only makes sense.
The one thing I can't foresee is being able to see the staging. Even if I could see through the tunnel, I'd probably make is so you couldn't. I like the illusion aspect of things. Creating a backdrop that shows a sprawling city with a see through tunnel--kinda ruins it for me.
The sightlines I have are what makes it work for me. When I'm standing, the tunnel is just above waist height. I can't see into it past the first six inches or so.
When I squat down, I can look right at the yard throat. So the illusion works fine for me.
Chip;
Don't know if you remember on not, but this time last year, Grandeman (Eric), was trying to solve the same problem. He wound up using simple magnetic reed switches to light red or green LEDS on a simple panel. He was concerned that he would have to add magnets to the locos to get reliable operation, but the motor magnets were more than enough to trip the switches.
The reed switches were placed between the rails at an appropriate location near the fouling points of the turnouts. I saw them in operation during one of our round robin meets and they worked very well.
He now has them mounted into three completely hidden staging yards and I haven't heard of any changes he's made in the setup.
I'm sure if the archives from this time last year are available, you can find the discussions out there, or you can ask him, next time you're over in the MRF.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
cjcrescent wrote: Chip;He wound up using simple magnetic reed switches to light red or green LEDS on a simple panel. He was concerned that he would have to add magnets to the locos to get reliable operation, but the motor magnets were more than enough to trip the switches.
He wound up using simple magnetic reed switches to light red or green LEDS on a simple panel. He was concerned that he would have to add magnets to the locos to get reliable operation, but the motor magnets were more than enough to trip the switches.
Thanks for an interesting piece of info! The Old Dog will have to think about that.
cjcrescent wrote: Chip;Don't know if you remember on not, but this time last year, Grandeman (Eric), was trying to solve the same problem. He wound up using simple magnetic reed switches to light red or green LEDS on a simple panel. He was concerned that he would have to add magnets to the locos to get reliable operation, but the motor magnets were more than enough to trip the switches.The reed switches were placed between the rails at an appropriate location near the fouling points of the turnouts. I saw them in operation during one of our round robin meets and they worked very well. He now has them mounted into three completely hidden staging yards and I haven't heard of any changes he's made in the setup.I'm sure if the archives from this time last year are available, you can find the discussions out there, or you can ask him, next time you're over in the MRF.
I remember the discussion well. It is a good method for block detection. But that is not the only issue. With 3 trains on a staging track identifying each engine, and the corresponding address, is the larger of the two issues. It is the most likely method for me to use if I go the control panel route.
Option #83728: When having an operating session, have a position of "mole" who's job it is to be int he other room and handle the trains in and out of staging. Stick a throttle jack over there and that's the only expense ($15). See Lee Nicholas's Utah and Colorado Western, and Craig Bisgeier's Housatonic - both have a dedicate staging yard operator.
ANd you though I was gonna come up with some insane electronic scheme... I've thought about it for my own layout, the idea being the crews get off their locos at a division point or whatever, and the computer then runs the train into a vacant staging track. ANd at the scheduled time, +/- a delay factor just to drive the dispatcher nuts, the computer brings the next scheduled train out of staging and stops it at the sation for the new crew to get on. Someday. Stacking multiple trains per staging track makes it REALLy tough. less tough if you don't have to recycle trains in a given session. But it prevents having to assign a railroad friend the completley unprototypical job of staging trains.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Option "Mega Bucks"
Get one of these
http://www.wirelessmicrocolorcam.com/estore/product_info.php?products_id=41
They are a blast when you aren't using it to monitor the staging yard you can put it on a flat car and push it around the layout
I've had one for 2 years and have had a ball with it
I have a small portable TV/VCR and take it to other peoples layouts and tape them
the depth of field is unbelievable
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
My layout I built in the 70's(8' by 13') had a similar reverse loop with 3 staging tracks. WB trains had to pull by the loop and back around the reverse loop before being parked on on of the staging tracks. The trains were small(anywhere from 3-8 cars). It was a real pain to do this, but it did work. My current layout(25' by 20') has the staging tracks 'visible'(actually sort of hidden by a small ridge that is about 2 1/2" high). If one stands on a stool, they can see the tracks behind the trees. The staging tracks are behind a town and elevated about 6". No one even knows they are there unless it is pointed out.
Our club layout(27' by 27') has staging that is at 24" off of the floor(16 staging tracks), with a 'helix' that goes up to the main level(48"). The staging is basically visable except for one of the 4 ladders. There are Tortoise machines with a panel to control that ladder - the rest are controlled by Caboose Industries ground throws.
A friend had a large N scale layout(38' by 14') with hidden staging - and a small remote TV video system to 'see' the trains in staging. He never really used it for operation, and passed away last year. So the jury is out on how well that system would work, but I have heard of others doing the same thing.
All of your ideas will work. The main factors are expense/maintenence/degree of difficulty it takes to get reliable operation. If you read a lot of 'layout/operation' articles, you will note a trend to seperate staging that in some other open area. If you are going to run trains into the hidden staging, and run the same train out 'complete' at a later time; hidden staging will work fine. If you plan to shuffle' cars in a consist(re-stage trains), this may not be the best way to do staging. My original idea was to run complete trains into staging, flip the bills on the car cards, and run them out again as the next days train. I now 're-stage' the trains and swap out cars as needed between operating sessions - This takes about 20 minutes if there have been no major foul up's(like the car card and the car in two different places).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier wrote: All of your ideas will work. The main factors are expense/maintenence/degree of difficulty it takes to get reliable operation. If you read a lot of 'layout/operation' articles, you will note a trend to seperate staging that in some other open area. If you are going to run trains into the hidden staging, and run the same train out 'complete' at a later time; hidden staging will work fine. If you plan to shuffle' cars in a consist(re-stage trains), this may not be the best way to do staging. My original idea was to run complete trains into staging, flip the bills on the car cards, and run them out again as the next days train. I now 're-stage' the trains and swap out cars as needed between operating sessions - This takes about 20 minutes if there have been no major foul up's(like the car card and the car in two different places). Jim
The staging is in another room and open. I just can't see it. The plan is to, as you describe, run trains into staging and flip the cards. We'll see if that changes as I start running.
SpaceMouse wrote: The staging is in another room and open. I just can't see it. The plan is to, as you describe, run trains into staging and flip the cards. We'll see if that changes as I start running.
Quick thought, could photo electric cells be used as train detectors? Using them on the layout might be a problem if one wanted to do night operations, but in an "open" room they might be one possible answer.
exPalaceDog wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: The staging is in another room and open. I just can't see it. The plan is to, as you describe, run trains into staging and flip the cards. We'll see if that changes as I start running. Quick thought, could photo electric cells be used as train detectors? Using them on the layout might be a problem if one wanted to do night operations, but in an "open" room they might be one possible answer.Have fun
Yes they can and it was my first thought on a previous layout. But I have not used them.
Every time I've used photo cells, a light source was either provided or I provided them. I'm leaning toward the reed switches with react to the magnetic coil in the engine and are a lot cheaper. They worked well for Gandeman, and I when I asked him about them today, his report was glowing.