Is this hobby getting expensive or what!?

[Anonymous]

Would those guys in Compton be willing to work for $5 and a loaf of bread a week or whatever those guys in china are being paid?

It seems to me that the free market capitalism that the west and the WTO is pushing on everyone is kicking us in the baws and it serves us right too!

if we don't like the rules then we should've made the game fair. Lets be clear - it was us and through us, our governments that made this up so we could take advantage of other, smaller countries.

neil

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by neilmunck

Would those guys in Compton be willing to work for $5 and a loaf of bread a week or whatever those guys in china are being paid?

It seems to me that the free market capitalism that the west and the WTO is pushing on everyone is kicking us in the baws and it serves us right too!

if we don't like the rules then we should've made the game fair. Lets be clear - it was us and through us, our governments that made this up so we could take advantage of other, smaller countries.

neil

Yes, that's part of the picture, and I'm sure I don't have it all. If you buy items made with cheap labor you are in effect taking advantage of them. So we started purchasing items at low prices and felt smug with our voluntary enslaving of them to make items cheaper for us so we could have more. This goes on a few years and slowly companies move there to take advantage of low wages. Slowly the profit in the other country builds up and we loose our industrial base. Pretty soon we are at econmic war and the other country has raised their prices and start buying what's left of our industries. Then our standard of living goes down. Can't happen? It already did in the 1980's-90s with Japan. I remember when Japeneese products were considered junk like Chineese is/was now. Now we are getting a rerun with China. So them guys in Compton may be working for a loaf of bread and $500 a week soon, but the $500 will be worth $5 in 1960's dollars. FRED

[detting]

I do like the point about scratchbuilding and kitbuilding. Why does Athearn have to offer a R-T-R line at all? Their kits have to be all of 8 pieces. The best thing to do is to look for bargains using all the resources available to us.

There are a number of articles in old mags that walk you step by step though scratchbuilding structures and cars. There was, before my time, a series of $1 model projects (1950s-1960s).

It would be interesting to see MR resurrect this concept and do a series of $5 model projects.

Later...

[Anonymous]

I've had to severely limit my spending in the hobby. So much nice stuff has come out in the past few years, but you can't buy it all. I think that you have to really enjoy what you have and ONLY buy what you really, really want to have. Get very selective. Makes you appreciate your model rr a lot more. Plus save a few dollars for your car, repairs, clothes, food, dates, etc.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by detting

I do like the point about scratchbuilding and kitbuilding. Why does Athearn have to offer a R-T-R line at all? Their kits have to be all of 8 pieces. The best thing to do is to look for bargains using all the resources available to us.

There are a number of articles in old mags that walk you step by step though scratchbuilding structures and cars. There was, before my time, a series of $1 model projects (1950s-1960s).

It would be interesting to see MR resurrect this concept and do a series of $5 model projects.

You can get kits from http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/manuinfo/v220 for stripwood cars for under $5 HO which need trucks and couplers. I have a few and they are fun and fairly easy to build and teach good skills to start scratching your own. Also check out http://www.the-gauge.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=29 for more scratchbuilding how-tos and instruction. FRED

[AggroJones]

Yes, crazy expensive. And what the hell happened to "affordable" non-brass steam? Now stuffs gone mad. [:0] At the begining of this new wave, locomotives like the Spectrum 2-8-0 cost MSRP $135, Spectrum light 4-8-2 $170, Spectrum K-4 $140, and the Genesis light 2-8-2 $139. Those were the list prices and they could be found for much less. Even the prices of Proto's earlier steamers look good compared to whats happening now. BLI T-1 $400, Lionel UP 4-6-6-4 $700, BLI 2-10-4 $380, BLI A class $500, Genesis 4-6-6-4 $600, BLI flat face 4-8-8-2 $500! They are sometimes discounted, but still expensive. Prices are gettin' way too high. These prices are getting up to some brass. [V]

Like BLI making customers pay more for sound and DCC, some of us don't want either. [:(!] That should be an option. Lionel and Athearn Genesis are follwing the trend, but not offering it as an extra. They should market some with DCC/Sound and some without. Bring the cost down for us who want that specific locomotive but don't want to pay a small fortune.

Example. If BLI had runs of steamers that included ones with DCC/sound and ones not, the latter will be deemed more likely to be bought by people like me. Brings the price down to "reasonable". [;)]

TTFN

[on30francisco]

It's no more expensive than most other activities. Compared with the price of going to a ballgame, seeing a movie, going to a bar, or eating out, model railroading is a cheap hobby. It can get expensive if you pay list prices for everything. With the availability of the discount on-line and mail order shops there is no reason to pay list prices on most items. A lot of RTR is costly but you can minimize the cost by building a kit, scratchbuilding, or purchasing the RTR item through a discount hobby supplier.

[espeefoamer]

Plastic diesels start at around $100.and go up from there.
Freight cars run close to $30.,passenger cars close to $50.
This is a lot more than just a few years ago.[:(!]

[n2mopac]

Thanks for bringing this older discussion back as a reference for comparison to the other matching topic started today. It is always good to see past contribtions on current topics.

Ron

[railman]

One thing; and this may be blasphemy to some; but if they painted some of these very detailed and accurate models in more roads, they could expand their market base and sell more, bringing the price down.
I know, that's the reason we buy the detailed engines, for their road-specific things and such. But if an engine looks reasonably good in a paint sceme that never was, well then a railroader has a neat engine (see "Modeler's Licence" for legal precedent), and the manuf. has a larger market.

[fischey]

Hi. Prices? Think about how they have gone up so high. And yeah, relative to your income, they are. Here are some things for your review and then you can decide whether in the grand scheme of life here, your hobby is worthwhile.

The hobby has gotten competitive. The cost to put a product on the market, start to finish, has skyrocketed. Interestingly, it's the marketing, financing, insuring, shipping, storage, and inventory that is now high cost, and that is passed on to you. Oh. The jobs? Gone. Remember too that the hobby is really at its zenith and it's time to cash in if you are an industry member.

After this, who are they going to sell to after boomers? Their kids? Geny Y? NOT! Video games rule. Tschah! Sell your models and Harley stock in 5 years. After the boomers get too old to see the trains or ride, there will be a lot of cheap stuff and spare parts on ebay. Invest in nursing homes and geriatric Medical devices.

Baby boomers have ca***o spend. Boomers do not have time, though, and they want their models finished RTR. They are willing to spend money to avoid the inconvenience of painting, detailing, and decaling a model.

We Modelers are educated and we have learned well. Blame the publishers of fine hobby books and the explosion of information on the internet. Nowadays, modelers know the difference betwixt an F7 Phase 1A original Evanston with steam generator and an F7 phase 5C(ii) MLW rebuild with an FM HS 616 prime mover and Alco trucks, with video remote control antennae, and they want to have those differences available. With the benefit of variety comes cost.

Everything has gone up in price. The chasm between haves and have-nots is larger. Leisure time products have crept up in price nearly 80% in the last ten years, adjusted for inflation, because we have become accustomed to being entertained as one of our purposes in life (that may have been chosen for us, but that is for another forum). Look at what a day at the game costs you and your family of four, as someone pointed out earlier. Try a weekend at a resort (you know, the one your folks used to take you to). Then call for a defibrillator when you get the bill. The only exception I can see is motorcycles and ATV's which are way much the bang for buck good deal, adjusting for inflation. Harley excepted, see above.

So what do you do? I say, hunt for bargains. Wait. Yeah wait. I managed to get things done in this hobby that entertained me quite well. In the meantime, I kept my hobby dealer selling me bits and pieces of "stuff" until the opportunity to get that dreamboat model came. It was sweeet, on sale, and just right for me.

[Jetrock]

Plastic diesels start at $100? Which plastic diesels? I still see plenty of brand-spanking-new plastic diesels in the $40-70 range.

Freight cars $30? I was at the hobby shop this week and Accurail kits are still running around $10 a pop.

And that's at the most expensive hobby shop in town--at another, prices are typically 10% less than the Walthers catalog--at still another, older discounted engines are available for half their original retail price or less, brand spanking new.

And that's without consulting eBay, various online hobby supply companies, or train shows.

If you don't want to bother looking for deals, you will pay for being lazy by paying the highest retail prices. If you don't want to bother building kits, you will pay for being lazy by purchasing RTR. Lazy people who don't want to put any effort into the hobby SHOULD pay more, and manufacturers who put more work into their products (like building their kits for people) SHOULD charge more.

About the next 20 years: The boomers are retiring. And quite frankly, retirees appear prominently in model railroading--a retired person has more time to fiddle with kits and pursue hobbies than a working person, and less disposable income--so kits may indeed make a resurgence.

As to Generation X, the folks currently between 25 and 40 or so: Admittedly this age group grew up when railroading was at an ebb. But there are train buffs from this era (such as myself, at 35 years old) and GenXers tend to be more frugal than Boomers, having come of age during crappy economic times. We tend to be a busy lot, though, as we're still in the small-kids/full-time-plus work stage of our lives.

For Generation Y/millenials, folks currently 5-25 years old: Sure, they are growing up in a high-tech wonderland where videogames are a fairly matured technology, but they're also living in a world where trains are on the upswing--the elimination of the ICC means that actual train traffic is at an all-time high, while LRV commuter lines have sprung up over the past decade or two to avenge the ghosts of trolley lines killed off by public highways and National City Lines. And while they didn't grow up seeing Lionel displays in stores, there isn't a kid around today who doesn't know who Thomas the Tank Engine is--and I can personally attest that I have seen literally thousands of kids at the Railroad Museum who are certainly entranced by trains! Of course, since this generation likes high-tech things, they'll demand more tech in their trains--but in an age of cheap DCC, computer-driven command control and animated special effects, that might not be a problem. Also keep in mind that, aside from computer games, this generation greatly enjoys collector-card games, a pastime based on something no more high-tech than PIECES OF CARDBOARD.

The large number of teenage/adolescent model railroad buffs on this forum suggests that the future of model railroading is assured, at least in some form. It won't be EXACTLY THE SAME FOREVER, but then, it never has been. The only thing that won't change is that a nice brass engine will still cost a month's rent, just as it is now and just as it was 30-40 years ago!

[ATSFCLIFF]

Yes and you would be deceiving yourself if you said it is not. But what hasn't gone up? So has incomes also gone up too. On a broader prospective the increase is slight. If one were to compare prices twenty years ago then, one should also compare quality and technology improvements. Dual flywheel drives, DCC ready, L.E.D lighting etc unheard 20 years ago. Would you want to run those jerky,noisy but cheap engines today? Look at the variety of rolling stock. Scale accurate, better coupling and better detailed. I would pay for quality for something, like made by Kato, knowing it will give hours of reliable smooth running.
It pays to shop wisely and compare prices whether it is the LHS or the net. You still can get good quality stuff at reasonable prices.

[CNJ831]

I have to sometimes wonder if most posters have any conception of how the hobby has evolved over the past 50 years. Those who crow about how great the latest locomotives are, that it fully justifies their inflated prices, and that you must pay (through the nose!) for technology are certainly oblivious to the actual facts.

Our hobby's technology has advanced steadily throughout the entire period in question. We did not suddenly emerge from the Dark Ages of the hobby just a few years ago. Locomotives from the 50's needed endless tinkering to run steadily even at mid-range speeds and detail was all but totally lacking. By the 70's detail and proportions were much more faithful and they ran enormously better. Through the 80's the era of fictional-generic locomotives had just about ended and can motors were becoming the norm. Our trains could start at very low speeds and run smoothly. However, the fact remains that prices rose very little over this entire span and we were getting all the technological improvements for about the same relative price. However, the last ten years have seen a dramatic departure from this state of affairs. Prices have spiraled, more than doubling and in some cases tripling for what may be considered each manufacturer's better products.

Anyone who has followed the trends will realize that, for most of us, we are in the twilight of affordable engines. Fully half of all road locomotives offered today list at over $100. With the coming of sound and the toy-like feature of smoke, be prepared to see the average base price for diesels pass $200 in just a year or two. And also expect to see even the low-end manufacturers jump on this bandwagon soon. Technology always advances but it shouldn't be, and has not been, reflected in unacceptible price increases. Sadly, the days of Athearn being the great price controlling influence in the hobby are essentially at an end and in most areas prices are rising at a totally unjustifiable rate.

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

Jetrock,Atlas,Kato and Athearn(Geneses) has locomotives up to $149.00.The Athearn (Genesis) Automax is $49.95.KD has a covered hopper car for $39.95,The list goes on.Just check the FULL MRSP you just may get sticker shock...Are they worth the robber baron prices? Depends..I have read complaints about most if not all high dollar locomotives,wrong paint colors,incorrect details,shoddy running,gears cracking,light bulbs burning out,poor contact,ect,ect...If everything we read is to be taken as the truth.(Shrugs shoulders)
As far as e bay I have seen engines and cars go for more then you can buy them for on line at discount..E bay isn't the best answer any more for the better deals like it once was.[:(] The best answer is to shop around for the best deals.
I still can't justify or cheer the high prices on..No,The high prices will eventually kill the growth of the hobby..[:(]

[Anonymous]

Brakie,

You're entering into dangerous grounds. This type of debate got the Made in China thread pulled lol.

[BRAKIE]

I didn't post that has a new debate..But has a chill factor that is facing our hobby in the coming years.[:D] So,I deleted it..Just in case![:D]

[Anonymous]

Yes this hobby is getting quite alot expensive. With locomotives,rolling stock being RTR,I am and stopped purchasing new stuff. Alot of people who have posted their statements here, I do have to agree with most. if you ARE a modeler,then MODEL the stuff,NOT buying the RTR. The more people buy that [censored] RTR ,the more they will make,and the more likely people (veterans of the hobby) will stop buying them.Yes I understand that the companies want to make money,but thet ARE NOT LISTENING to what we as the modelers want!!! if they were,then where ARE the kits that Walthers,Athearn,Roundhouse,et al,are making.I have yet to see a damn good tank car that , like Walthers made years ago,that I can put together MY WAY!!! then I hear from people say that they dont have the time to do modeling or building kits?.................take it to heart folks....MAKE THE TIME!!!! I too appologize if I have offended some,but I'm sick of this RTR stuff,and I would like MORE kits to build. Then people wonder why I have stopped with model railroading.Its because the manufacturers dont care what we ( model railroad veterans and rare breeds of building kits) want,and this is one big reasons why hobbyshops go out of business,the people who used to buy stuff by the 100's are not,because who wants something that you didnt make yourself?

[Anonymous]

Let's see. In 1970 I worked for the Postal Service during my college vacations and my gross pay was $1.80 / hour, or $72 / week. I had a 6x10 layout in my parents' basement that I had assembled piece by piece over a 4-year period (replacing a larger but temporary on-the-floor layout in my parents' previous home, that operated from 1959-1964). I chose the 19th century mostly because the larger steam, even the mass-market stuff, seemed far out of my reach. My track plan ws heavily influenced by, to me, the high cost of turnouts. I agonized for about six weeks before finally paying the $25 retail (BTW, this was before the time of reliable discount postal suppliers) for a Rivarossi 4-4-0. (Still a beautiful runner, which I put on the tracks out of nostalgia, but that's another story ...). So this was about 40% of my weekly take-home pay.

Today, the same job (GS-5; postal service was still straight govt. back then) pays $530 / week gross, roughly $375 net. Just before Rivarossi went out of business, the same made-in-Italy loco (with a slightly upgraded motor) retailed for $99.99 - or 27% of the net pay from the same job / grade.

I believe that if you look at items that still have some comparability (for example, Atlas track even though that too has been improved - how many of you remember the fiber-tie flex track?, Vollmer and Kibri kits, some of the locos), in most cases these items have gone up by no more than, often less than, the overall rate of inflation. So ... tell me about a cheap hobby and I'll gladly consider it. Meanwhile, much of the more expensive new stuff really cannot be compared to the old, any more than one can compare, say, a 2003 Camry with a 1970 Dodge.

Having said that, for you diesel fans Uncle Irv single-handedly kept prices lower - seemingly, below-market. While the prices of Mantua locomotives went through the roof and I've never understood why.

In summary, I would have to characterize some of the posts in this thread as whining - well-meant whining, but still whining. The real key to affordability is buying only what you need, not evrything you want, and not stockpiling kits, projects, etc. Don't be pulled in by the limited-run marketing. Its like a trolley car; there's another one coming down the track if you wait awhile.

[BRAKIE]

I don't think anybody is whining..I think we are saying enough of the high prices that get higher with each new release..Look if a $99.00 engine can be sold for $66.00 or a $139.00 engine for $99.00 then somebody is wrong in the MSRP from the start..[:D] No,no justifying the prices from me.[}:)]

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Jetrock,Atlas,Kato and Athearn(Geneses) has locomotives up to $149.00.The Athearn (Genesis) Automax is $49.95.KD has a covered hopper car for $39.95,The list goes on.Just check the FULL MRSP you just may get sticker shock...Are they worth the robber baron prices? Depends..I have read complaints about most if not all high dollar locomotives,wrong paint colors,incorrect details,shoddy running,gears cracking,light bulbs burning out,poor contact,ect,ect...If everything we read is to be taken as the truth.(Shrugs shoulders)
As far as e bay I have seen engines and cars go for more then you can buy them for on line at discount..E bay isn't the best answer any more for the better deals like it once was.[:(] The best answer is to shop around for the best deals.
I still can't justify or cheer the high prices on..No,The high prices will eventually kill the growth of the hobby..[:(]

You can always pay *MORE* than the minimum--the prices you claim are the higher end, not the lower end! Sure, anyone is welcome to pay $150 for a new diesel if they want to--the bottom line is that they don't HAVE to. The "Genesis" is a premium line--if you don't want to spend $150, go buy up an Athearn blue-box or a Bachmann basic engine. If these high-end engines are as shoddily-made as you say, maybe we'd be better off buying the toy-train stuff in the first place.

And sure, you can spend all you want on overpriced RTR cars--but there are still those $10 kits sitting over there in the same aisle. Sure, they were $2 in 1972--so was a record album!

I'm not cheering the high prices either--I'm just not BUYING the high-priced stuff! Nobody forces anyone at gunpoint to buy this expensive stuff, they decide to do it on their own.

[Anonymous]

Expensive as HELL!

58 bucks for a plastic HO boxcar

D&H I love New York boxcar

[Anonymous]

Yes it is. To me $40 to $50.00 for one passenger car will turn alot of people away. Kids can't pay that can of money.

[Anonymous]

I've been in this hobby for 45 years & I've seen a lot of changes over the years. Back in the early 60's all you could buy were kits & most of them were made out of wood. They didn't come w/trucks or couplers
& if you were in a damp area they wouldn't even stay on the tracks.
Buildings were always wood & you had to almost scratch build it to make it look good. There was hardly any scenery items like they have nowadays. Railroading has come a long way. Even in the past 10 years. I hardly ever buy a kit in a freight car or pass. car. I don't have the time or the eyesight to put one together. I hate to put handrails on loco's, but to get the better price, I do it. It takes a big magnifying glass & a lot of super glue(CA) for me.
I love buildings in kits & hate the builtups. I like changing all my buildings to fit the layout.
Someone gave me a cab forward Mantua loco kit about 30 years ago. I tried for 10 years to put it together. I finally gave up & sold it at a train show. It's what you can do for yourself, how much time you can spare, persistance, how much money you have to spare, do you like kits or RTR? I'm Cheap. I buy at the lowest price possible. I go to a lot of train shows & sometimes I get a fantastic buy on something I don't really need, but, it's cheap. LOL

larry

[Anonymous]

A little bit so.

[Anonymous]

One thing to think about is the "play value" of what you buy. I think this was discussed years ago in one of the magazines. Buy a BLI model for $400. Looks great. Runs great. Put in on the layout. Now your ready for another one so the railroad gets a "family" look. Total time between purchase and readiness to get another one. A couple of days (or even hours). Now take a Bowser kit for the same engine. Get the kit, the superdetail parts, a sound decoder and paint. Assemble the engine, put on the detail parts, tweak its running, paint it, install decoder and sound. Total price about the same. It's finished - looks good, runs good. Ready for another one so the railroad gets a "family" look. Total time between purchase and readiness to get another one? Maybe a month or two.

In either case the cost for that particular addition to the layout was the same. What is different is the time needed to add that piece to the layout and then get the urge to get something else. One way is a instant gratification, and you want to satisfy again. The other takes longer - streching the dollar investment over much more time.

Not that any one way is better than the other. Both RTR and kits have their place in this hobby and if one or the other makes someone happy - then there's nothing wrong with it. Just a thought on why maybe the hobby seems to be getting expensive.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dkelly

One thing to think about is the "play value" of what you buy. I think this was discussed years ago in one of the magazines. Buy a BLI model for $400. Looks great. Runs great. Put in on the layout. Now your ready for another one so the railroad gets a "family" look. Total time between purchase and readiness to get another one. A couple of days (or even hours). Now take a Bowser kit for the same engine. Get the kit, the superdetail parts, a sound decoder and paint. Assemble the engine, put on the detail parts, tweak its running, paint it, install decoder and sound. Total price about the same. It's finished - looks good, runs good. Ready for another one so the railroad gets a "family" look. Total time between purchase and readiness to get another one? Maybe a month or two.

In either case the cost for that particular addition to the layout was the same. What is different is the time needed to add that piece to the layout and then get the urge to get something else. One way is a instant gratification, and you want to satisfy again. The other takes longer - streching the dollar investment over much more time.

Not that any one way is better than the other. Both RTR and kits have their place in this hobby and if one or the other makes someone happy - then there's nothing wrong with it. Just a thought on why maybe the hobby seems to be getting expensive.

My God! Your right!

But kits are terribly expensive now too.

[Anonymous]

Yes I think the hobby is getting to expensive because I was at my local hobby shop last week there was a 42.00 dollar signal.

[Jetrock]

I had a discussion with an old-hand model railroader about signals--when he was building a layout 30-40 years ago, they didn't SELL HO signals at all, at ANY price! Because he was an electrical engineer, he was able to design a system and build it from scratch, securing subminiature bulbs from a military supplier (they were not yet available on the public market.)

He machined the signal posts from brass tubing.

I'm sure he paid less than $42.00 each for his signals--and you'd still pay less today, if you designed the system yourself and scratchbuilt it all.

So, which would you prefer: either (a) NO pre-built signal systems, or (b) signals for $42?

And exactly what was this signal? I assume it wasn't some dummy signal, but something with several subminiature LED's and some circuitry, intended to be attached to an off-the-shelf signal system.

Signal systems aren't cheap because they're based on a fairly complex and sophisticated set of electronics. But the gods of model railroading won't strike you down if you don't have a signal system, or just put in dummy signals.

[Anonymous]

Most of the MRR items that have skyrocketed in price are cast or molded in plastic. The price of crude oil has gone well over 50 bucks a barrel. Plastic is sourced from crude oil. Double the price of plastic, expect an increase in the price of anything manufactured using plastic. It ain't rocket science, it's fundamental economics. No single manufacturer is raising prices just to gouge modellers. If one manufacturer asks too much for a product, they lose the sale to a competeing firm. If the cost of purchasing supplies, kits or what have you is a struggle, might I suggest that you spread your purchases over a longer time period? And, yes, I am an old fart. I might even be brazen enough to suggest you try scratchbuilding. That is the facet of the hobby that got me involved many years ago, and I still get great satisfaction viewing an item I have created from miscellaneous bits and pieces. These are just my observations and opinions. You are all entitled to have widely differing points of view.

Tom