Tracklayer wrote: Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains... Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.Tracklayer (Mark)
Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains...
Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.
Tracklayer (Mark)
anyone who says "NEVER" when it comes to railroad trivia like this is clueless!
of course some railroad somethere used 2-8-0's for passenger service.
New York Central Hudsons pulled freight trains at times.
Alco PA's and EMD E-units pulled freight trains at times.
there are no absolutes..
you could say with accuracy that "2-8-0 consolidations were designed and used primarily as Freight engines, and 99.9 percent of the time a 2-8-0 would be found hauling freight."
but you cant say NEVER did a 2-8-0 haul a passenger train...unless that person has a time machine and has personally witnesssed every hour of operation of every 2-8-0 ever built throughout the world.
maybe then he could say "never"...otherwise, no.
Scot
twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...TracklayerTracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes. Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!Tom
Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...Tracklayer
selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.
Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...
Tracklayer
Tracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes.
Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!
Tom
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
scottychaos wrote: Tracklayer wrote: Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.Tracklayer I know you said 20th century..but I wasnt aware it was forbidden to comment on anything before the 20th century.I will be more careful next time, now that have been made aware of the rules. scot
Tracklayer wrote: Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.Tracklayer
Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.
I know you said 20th century..
but I wasnt aware it was forbidden to comment on anything before the 20th century.
I will be more careful next time, now that have been made aware of the rules.
scot
No problem Scot. I was just having a little fun with you. Thank you for you input.
CAZEPHYR wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...Tracklayer Both were used by the narrow gauge D&RGW until the very end of their passenger operations.
Both were used by the narrow gauge D&RGW until the very end of their passenger operations.
That may very well be true CAZEPHYR, but that's narrow gauge. I'm going to be more careful from now on about how I ask my questions... I was only interested in standard gauge main line passenger service locos of the 20th century. Thanks for your input though.
scottychaos wrote: In very general terms, the most common passenger locos were:1840's - 1870's - 4-4-01880's - 1900 - 4-6-0 and 4-4-21900 - 1920's - 4-4-2 and 4-6-21920's - 1940's - 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 and 4-8-4.obviously there will be exceptions, but that list should be close to the history of most railroads.The 4-6-2 Pacific was probably the most common passenger steamer. Just about every railroad used Pacifics for passenger service between 1900 and 1940. first was the 4-4-0 - used for freight and passenger service.the 4-4-0 evolved into the 4-4-2 Atlantic and the 4-6-0 ten wheeler.The 4-6-0 evolved into the larger 4-6-2 Pacific.the 4-6-2 Pacific evolved into the 4-6-4 Hudson.The Passenger 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the 4-6-4 Hudson.the Freight 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the freight 4-8-2 and 2-8-4. Scot
In very general terms, the most common passenger locos were:
1840's - 1870's - 4-4-0
1880's - 1900 - 4-6-0 and 4-4-2
1900 - 1920's - 4-4-2 and 4-6-2
1920's - 1940's - 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 and 4-8-4.
obviously there will be exceptions, but that list should be close to the history of most railroads.
The 4-6-2 Pacific was probably the most common passenger steamer. Just about every railroad used Pacifics for passenger service between 1900 and 1940.
first was the 4-4-0 - used for freight and passenger service.
the 4-4-0 evolved into the 4-4-2 Atlantic and the 4-6-0 ten wheeler.
The 4-6-0 evolved into the larger 4-6-2 Pacific.
the 4-6-2 Pacific evolved into the 4-6-4 Hudson.
The Passenger 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the 4-6-4 Hudson.
the Freight 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the freight 4-8-2 and 2-8-4.
Virginian wrote: I believe the man was looking for common usages. Northerns were invented as passenger power. They may have been and indeed were used for freight later. The two most powerful of the breed (N&W and NYC) were used as passenger power (until the twilight of steam).I have a pic of a VGN MB Mike double-headed with an N&W J Northern on the point of (I believe) the Cavalier. So anything is possible. Would I put together a 1940-50s era passenger train with a Mike? No. The VGN used Pacifics and the N&W used Northerns, Mountains, Pacifics, and ... Mastadons! Yep. 4-8-0s on the Huckleberry and the Creeper out of Abington and Christiansburg.Steam line !? Phooey, that's no deciding issue. How long do you suppose it takes to run a steam line to anywhere on a steam locomotive? Or to remove one? (Answer, not long a tall !) Does anybody have a pic of a Big Boy on a (non-excursion) passenger train.Haiwatha 4-6-4s were Baltics. Ask any Milwaukee fan.Has anyone mentioned Penny's Duplexes? They were their main advertised passenger power in late steam.
I believe the man was looking for common usages. Northerns were invented as passenger power. They may have been and indeed were used for freight later. The two most powerful of the breed (N&W and NYC) were used as passenger power (until the twilight of steam).
I have a pic of a VGN MB Mike double-headed with an N&W J Northern on the point of (I believe) the Cavalier. So anything is possible. Would I put together a 1940-50s era passenger train with a Mike? No. The VGN used Pacifics and the N&W used Northerns, Mountains, Pacifics, and ... Mastadons! Yep. 4-8-0s on the Huckleberry and the Creeper out of Abington and Christiansburg.
Steam line !? Phooey, that's no deciding issue. How long do you suppose it takes to run a steam line to anywhere on a steam locomotive? Or to remove one? (Answer, not long a tall !) Does anybody have a pic of a Big Boy on a (non-excursion) passenger train.
Haiwatha 4-6-4s were Baltics. Ask any Milwaukee fan.
Has anyone mentioned Penny's Duplexes? They were their main advertised passenger power in late steam.
Virginian
The PRR had fifty of the T1's, and the B&O had one of the 4-4-4-4 experimental type. They also used the S1 (6-4-4-6, and the S2 6-8-6 on the Broadway many times, but both were considered experimental. These engines were photographed on regular service.
We did get off topic since he did ask for the most popular.
I just wanted to show most every steam engine type had been used from time to time. The Union Pacific had steam train lines on the Big Boys and had used them on troop trains, not excursion trains. As far as I can research, no Big Boy was ever used for an excursion train.
I did find several more pictures clearly showing the Big Boys had the Steam Train lines installed most of their useful lives.
In 1956, the Rocky Mountain Railroad Club ran an excursion on the Union Pacific using the last UP 4-12-2, number 9000 to pull the excursion. It was prior to the 9000 running to Los Angeles on its own steam to be donated.
Sorry we got off topic, since it was a fun subject.
scottychaos wrote: jecorbett wrote:Every road had their own favorites. Pacifics were popular with Pennsy and Erie while NYC favored the Hudson with Niagras(4-8-4 Northerns to most roads) a second choice. but that only applies to one specific moment in time..If you are talking about 1940, then yes, the "Erie and PRR favored Pacifics and NYC favored Hudsons".. but before the developement of the Hudson, NYC hauled their passenger trains with a huge fleet of Pacifics.NYC owned a total of 478 Pacifics, built between 1908 and 1927.but only 275 of the more famous Hudsons! built between 1927 and 1938.sources:http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/nyc.shtmlhttp://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/nyc.shtml so it all depends on what era you are talking about..overall, NYC used far more Pacifics than Hudsons..Scot
jecorbett wrote:Every road had their own favorites. Pacifics were popular with Pennsy and Erie while NYC favored the Hudson with Niagras(4-8-4 Northerns to most roads) a second choice.
but that only applies to one specific moment in time..
If you are talking about 1940, then yes, the "Erie and PRR favored Pacifics and NYC favored Hudsons"..
but before the developement of the Hudson, NYC hauled their passenger trains with a huge fleet of Pacifics.
NYC owned a total of 478 Pacifics, built between 1908 and 1927.
but only 275 of the more famous Hudsons! built between 1927 and 1938.
sources:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/nyc.shtml
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/hudson/nyc.shtml
so it all depends on what era you are talking about..
overall, NYC used far more Pacifics than Hudsons..
In addition to the NYC Pacifics, the PRR had 425 K4's and had a few other classes of Pacifics before they started building K4's.
The Pacific was used by many railroads for close to forty years of total service.
They might have been the overall most used passenger engine by total numbers.
One thing I didn't find on the listed passenger locomotives were SP's cab-forwards.
4-8-8-2's regularly pulled passenger trains over Donner Summit as well as handling such trains as the West Coast, Owl and Tehachapi from LA to Bakersfield. One was even assigned to the San Joaquin Daylight in 1953 to avoid double heading, but threw a rod out on the desert at about 75 MPH, IIRC. The regular 4-8-4 double headed combo was immediately reinstated. The cab-forwards were also regularly assigned to troop trains in difficult territory.
SP also had a dozen 2-6-6-2's built specifically for passenger service in the early teens of the 20th century. There were some severe tracking problems with them and they were converted to 4-6-6-2's. They didn't last too long in passenger service and were ultimately reassigned to the freight pool.
Also, some of SP's 4-10-2's were used for a short time on passenger trains in both the Sierras and over Tehachapi in the late 20's. Problems with the long rigid wheelbase caused them to be reassigned to areas that didn't have such severe curvature and they were reassigned to the freight pool.
Andre
AntonioFP45 wrote: Don't forget the Milwaukee Road's "Hiawatha Hudsons". Regularly run at 100+ mph speeds! (I would love to see an old video clip showing of these trains whipping by at those speeds!)
Don't forget the Milwaukee Road's "Hiawatha Hudsons". Regularly run at 100+ mph speeds!
(I would love to see an old video clip showing of these trains whipping by at those speeds!)
Antonio
Several VHS video versions of the Milwaukee engines have been available over the years and the scenes are very interesting. I have not watched them for some time, but some speedy scenes are recorded and available.
CAZEPHYR wrote: csmith9474 wrote: selector wrote: csmith9474 wrote: lvanhen wrote:The UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy pulled a few passenger trains - but that was a rareity. 0-6-0's pulled a lot of them - in the yards! Probably every type of steam engine pulled a passenger train or two at one time or another, but your original list plus the 4-6-4 probably covers the "most popular".I don't know either way, but where did you get your info on Big Boys pulling passenger trains? The reason I ask is because I saw a thread in regards to Big Boys and someone stated that Big Boys never pulled any passenger trains (something to the effect that they weren't equipped to do so and the UP would have never wasted that resource on pax trains, I believe). Again, I don't know either way, but it would be interesting to know for certain that Big Boys did in fact pull a passenger train or two.Dunno about the Big Boy, but the Challengers with the elephant ears, the grey ones, did pull revenue passenger trains...if pax trains could ever be called revenue generating. Did the Big Boys have steam lines? I realize CAZEPHYR noted that they pulled troop trains, but I suppose if the Big Boys didn't have steam lines, the UP could have used a steam generator cars of some sort (I am not even sure if the UP ever had any steam generator cars).A picture of the tender of the 4024 on page 69 of the Big Boy by Kratville clearly shows the steam train line. I can not be sure that all of the Big Boys had this installed, but this particular tender had the steam line installed. I have all of the Streamliners from volume one to the present and I seem to remember reading they did pull some troop trains durning the war, but not regular numbered trains. Passenger service was certainly not common for the Big boys, as their main assignment was heavy freight. I would guess that these lines were removed in the fifties as they were certainly not worth the maintenance in later years.
csmith9474 wrote: selector wrote: csmith9474 wrote: lvanhen wrote:The UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy pulled a few passenger trains - but that was a rareity. 0-6-0's pulled a lot of them - in the yards! Probably every type of steam engine pulled a passenger train or two at one time or another, but your original list plus the 4-6-4 probably covers the "most popular".I don't know either way, but where did you get your info on Big Boys pulling passenger trains? The reason I ask is because I saw a thread in regards to Big Boys and someone stated that Big Boys never pulled any passenger trains (something to the effect that they weren't equipped to do so and the UP would have never wasted that resource on pax trains, I believe). Again, I don't know either way, but it would be interesting to know for certain that Big Boys did in fact pull a passenger train or two.Dunno about the Big Boy, but the Challengers with the elephant ears, the grey ones, did pull revenue passenger trains...if pax trains could ever be called revenue generating. Did the Big Boys have steam lines? I realize CAZEPHYR noted that they pulled troop trains, but I suppose if the Big Boys didn't have steam lines, the UP could have used a steam generator cars of some sort (I am not even sure if the UP ever had any steam generator cars).
selector wrote: csmith9474 wrote: lvanhen wrote:The UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy pulled a few passenger trains - but that was a rareity. 0-6-0's pulled a lot of them - in the yards! Probably every type of steam engine pulled a passenger train or two at one time or another, but your original list plus the 4-6-4 probably covers the "most popular".I don't know either way, but where did you get your info on Big Boys pulling passenger trains? The reason I ask is because I saw a thread in regards to Big Boys and someone stated that Big Boys never pulled any passenger trains (something to the effect that they weren't equipped to do so and the UP would have never wasted that resource on pax trains, I believe). Again, I don't know either way, but it would be interesting to know for certain that Big Boys did in fact pull a passenger train or two.Dunno about the Big Boy, but the Challengers with the elephant ears, the grey ones, did pull revenue passenger trains...if pax trains could ever be called revenue generating.
csmith9474 wrote: lvanhen wrote:The UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy pulled a few passenger trains - but that was a rareity. 0-6-0's pulled a lot of them - in the yards! Probably every type of steam engine pulled a passenger train or two at one time or another, but your original list plus the 4-6-4 probably covers the "most popular".I don't know either way, but where did you get your info on Big Boys pulling passenger trains? The reason I ask is because I saw a thread in regards to Big Boys and someone stated that Big Boys never pulled any passenger trains (something to the effect that they weren't equipped to do so and the UP would have never wasted that resource on pax trains, I believe). Again, I don't know either way, but it would be interesting to know for certain that Big Boys did in fact pull a passenger train or two.
lvanhen wrote:The UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy pulled a few passenger trains - but that was a rareity. 0-6-0's pulled a lot of them - in the yards! Probably every type of steam engine pulled a passenger train or two at one time or another, but your original list plus the 4-6-4 probably covers the "most popular".
I don't know either way, but where did you get your info on Big Boys pulling passenger trains? The reason I ask is because I saw a thread in regards to Big Boys and someone stated that Big Boys never pulled any passenger trains (something to the effect that they weren't equipped to do so and the UP would have never wasted that resource on pax trains, I believe). Again, I don't know either way, but it would be interesting to know for certain that Big Boys did in fact pull a passenger train or two.
Dunno about the Big Boy, but the Challengers with the elephant ears, the grey ones, did pull revenue passenger trains...if pax trains could ever be called revenue generating.
Did the Big Boys have steam lines? I realize CAZEPHYR noted that they pulled troop trains, but I suppose if the Big Boys didn't have steam lines, the UP could have used a steam generator cars of some sort (I am not even sure if the UP ever had any steam generator cars).
A picture of the tender of the 4024 on page 69 of the Big Boy by Kratville clearly shows the steam train line. I can not be sure that all of the Big Boys had this installed, but this particular tender had the steam line installed. I have all of the Streamliners from volume one to the present and I seem to remember reading they did pull some troop trains durning the war, but not regular numbered trains. Passenger service was certainly not common for the Big boys, as their main assignment was heavy freight.
I would guess that these lines were removed in the fifties as they were certainly not worth the maintenance in later years.
Thanks for the clarification. I suppose this falls into the "you learn something new every day" catagory!!
Have fun with your trains
Tracklayer wrote: Howdy all. Can someone tell me what the most popular steam locos of the 20th century were that pulled passenger service in the US ?. I know there was the 4-4-0 American, the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, the 4-6-2 Pacific, the 4-8-2 Mountain Type, the 4-8-4 Northern and the 4-6-6-4 Challenger. So what have I left out ?...Tracklayer
Howdy all. Can someone tell me what the most popular steam locos of the 20th century were that pulled passenger service in the US ?. I know there was the 4-4-0 American, the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler, the 4-6-2 Pacific, the 4-8-2 Mountain Type, the 4-8-4 Northern and the 4-6-6-4 Challenger. So what have I left out ?...
The question about the normal passenger power is one topic, but how railroads used their available power to pull passengers trains is still another topic and was not limited except the locomotive had to have steam lines to be assigned to pull passenger trains.
Even the Santa Fe used the 5011 class Texas locomotives on passenger trains in certain areas of the railroad. On page 181 of The Santa Fe Early Diesel Daze book, 5011 is pictured pulling the Grand Canyon out of Belen New Mexico and 5023 is pictured on the second section that day.
Union pacific used the Challengers as regular power out of Portland for many years.
I had read that big boys may have been used on a few troop trains during the WW II.
Almost any locomotive might have been used for protection power in case of break downs of regular power.
The L&N had several of the Big Emma's with steam train lines that were used for passenger power for the Kentucky Derby trains.
The bottom line on passenger train power is speed was important and not all freight and not all engines could keep the schedules, but were used as protection power at certain points on the main lines.
The PRR used to keep two each H10's 2-8-0's in Effingham at the coaling tower as protection power. One was pointed east and one was pointed west. If a K4 or T1 was having problems, the little H10 would be coupled onto the front and head for St. Louis or Indianaplis as needed. No one ever said they were on time with the H10 on the head end.
EDIT:"""
I forgot to add that the Southern Pacific used the Cab Fowards on passenger trains over the Sierra out of Roseville for many years. They were the 4-8-8-2's but early the early version of Cab Forwards were used on the hill also.