scottychaos wrote: In very general terms, the most common passenger locos were:1840's - 1870's - 4-4-01880's - 1900 - 4-6-0 and 4-4-21900 - 1920's - 4-4-2 and 4-6-21920's - 1940's - 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 and 4-8-4.obviously there will be exceptions, but that list should be close to the history of most railroads.The 4-6-2 Pacific was probably the most common passenger steamer. Just about every railroad used Pacifics for passenger service between 1900 and 1940. first was the 4-4-0 - used for freight and passenger service.the 4-4-0 evolved into the 4-4-2 Atlantic and the 4-6-0 ten wheeler.The 4-6-0 evolved into the larger 4-6-2 Pacific.the 4-6-2 Pacific evolved into the 4-6-4 Hudson.The Passenger 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the 4-6-4 Hudson.the Freight 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the freight 4-8-2 and 2-8-4. Scot
In very general terms, the most common passenger locos were:
1840's - 1870's - 4-4-0
1880's - 1900 - 4-6-0 and 4-4-2
1900 - 1920's - 4-4-2 and 4-6-2
1920's - 1940's - 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 and 4-8-4.
obviously there will be exceptions, but that list should be close to the history of most railroads.
The 4-6-2 Pacific was probably the most common passenger steamer. Just about every railroad used Pacifics for passenger service between 1900 and 1940.
first was the 4-4-0 - used for freight and passenger service.
the 4-4-0 evolved into the 4-4-2 Atlantic and the 4-6-0 ten wheeler.
The 4-6-0 evolved into the larger 4-6-2 Pacific.
the 4-6-2 Pacific evolved into the 4-6-4 Hudson.
The Passenger 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the 4-6-4 Hudson.
the Freight 4-8-4 Northern evolved from the freight 4-8-2 and 2-8-4.
Scot
Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.
Tracklayer
Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...Tracklayer
selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.
Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...
Both were used by the narrow gauge D&RGW until the very end of their passenger operations.
Tracklayer wrote: Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.Tracklayer
I know you said 20th century..
but I wasnt aware it was forbidden to comment on anything before the 20th century.
I will be more careful next time, now that have been made aware of the rules.
scot
CAZEPHYR wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...Tracklayer Both were used by the narrow gauge D&RGW until the very end of their passenger operations.
That may very well be true CAZEPHYR, but that's narrow gauge. I'm going to be more careful from now on about how I ask my questions... I was only interested in standard gauge main line passenger service locos of the 20th century. Thanks for your input though.
scottychaos wrote: Tracklayer wrote: Thanks for the 19th century loco history lesson Scot, but I actually only asked for locos of the 20th century.Tracklayer I know you said 20th century..but I wasnt aware it was forbidden to comment on anything before the 20th century.I will be more careful next time, now that have been made aware of the rules. scot
No problem Scot. I was just having a little fun with you. Thank you for you input.
Tracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes.
Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...TracklayerTracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes. Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!Tom
Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains...
Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.
Tracklayer (Mark)
Tracklayer wrote: Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains... Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.Tracklayer (Mark)
anyone who says "NEVER" when it comes to railroad trivia like this is clueless!
of course some railroad somethere used 2-8-0's for passenger service.
New York Central Hudsons pulled freight trains at times.
Alco PA's and EMD E-units pulled freight trains at times.
there are no absolutes..
you could say with accuracy that "2-8-0 consolidations were designed and used primarily as Freight engines, and 99.9 percent of the time a 2-8-0 would be found hauling freight."
but you cant say NEVER did a 2-8-0 haul a passenger train...unless that person has a time machine and has personally witnesssed every hour of operation of every 2-8-0 ever built throughout the world.
maybe then he could say "never"...otherwise, no.
Of course there is a distinction to be made between "Freight locos that *occasionally* were pressed into passenger service, on a short-term emergency basis" (which would apply to probably every "freight wheel arrangement")
and
"Freight" wheel arrangements (2-8-0, 2-8-2 etc) that were used in regular, day-to-day service as passenger engines"- which is much rarer, but still happened.
that would apply to the WP Mikados discussed above..
yes, a 2-8-0 consolidation is overwhelmingly a "freight only" engine..but im sure we can find a vintage photo of one hauling a passenger train..(current tourist operations dont count! ;) and some railroad somewhere probably had a small group of 2-8-0's that were dedicated to passenger service.
same thing with "passenger engines" being used in Freight...no one would ever say an Alco PA was a "freight engine"...it was always intended to be "passenger only"..but of course they did haul freight.
Here is a British 2-8-2, designed and built to be a passenger engine, there were six engines in this class:
http://www.lner.info/locos/P/p2.shtml
Victorian Railways of Australia had an extensive fleet of "Passenger Consolidations"
Australia The 2-8-0 locomotive saw extensive use throughout the various Australian state operated and private railways. The 2-8-0s appeared on the broad, standard and narrow gauges as a freight locomotive, though often employed in passenger service in Victoria. (*snip*)The next type was the 26 C class engines which saw freight and passenger service. In 1922, a smaller lighter 2-8-0, the K class was introduced for branch line freight (and later, passenger) services. Finally the VR introduced 60 light 2-8-0 J class engines in 1954 and they also operated freight and passenger services.
The 2-8-0 locomotive saw extensive use throughout the various Australian state operated and private railways. The 2-8-0s appeared on the broad, standard and narrow gauges as a freight locomotive, though often employed in passenger service in Victoria.
(*snip*)
The next type was the 26 C class engines which saw freight and passenger service. In 1922, a smaller lighter 2-8-0, the K class was introduced for branch line freight (and later, passenger) services. Finally the VR introduced 60 light 2-8-0 J class engines in 1954 and they also operated freight and passenger services.
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-8-0
The majority of Lehigh Valley 4-6-2 Pacifics were passenger engines, but they also rostered a sub-set of smaller driver Pacifics that were dedicated to freight-only.
Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...TracklayerTracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes. Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!Tom Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains... Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.Tracklayer (Mark)
Mark: I'd like to know their names, too, LOL! If they're MY age, then they should REALLY know better, or Senility has set in. If they're younger, then I'll just be frank and say that they're Interminably Clueless and should read up on railroad history before 1960.
As to verification for you, might I reccommend two books: RIO GRANDE, MAINLINE OF THE ROCKIES by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg. Published by Howell North--can't give you a publisher's date, but it's sometime in the late 1950's or early 1960's. And if, like me, you're a Lucius Beebe fan (I'm old enough to have met him at a party in Berkeley CA, and let me tell you, he was a real character, one of the last of the Great Edwardian Gentlemen!) , you'll know that the book has wonderful shots of 1200 series Rio Grande Mikados helped by 1100 2-8-0's wheeling both the "Panoramic" and the "Exposition Flyer" up the Front Range of the Rockies, circa mid-to late 1930's, before the rails were relaid to accommodate heavier Rio Grande 1700 and 1800 4-8-4's. Anyone give you any trouble about this, just refer them to me and I will gladly chew them a new orifice for you, LOL!
The other book is not as easily found, it's called WESTERN PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVES AND PASSENGER TRAINS, by Guy Dusmond, and is, from what I can ascertain, self-published in 1980. I have an autographed copy by the author. I have no idea whether it can be purchased anymore, or possibly a library near you might have a copy you can peruse. But to clarify my argument, the Western Pacific Mikados #322-326 were used between Oakland and Portola, CA primarily as passenger locomotives. They were the first Alco Mikes built for the WP with booster engines, and handled the "Scenic Limited" and "Exposition Flyer" through the Feather River Canyon. Western Pacific did not have a specific Modern 'passenger' steam locomotive until they bought second-hand 4-8-2's from the Florida East Coast in 1936. Prior to that , their passenger trains were hauled by either 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's or 2-8-2's. They DID recieve some 4-8-4's from Lima during WWII as passenger locos (duplicates of SP GS-series), but by the end of the War, WP was already committed to diesel. In fact, they were the first railroad in this state to completely diesilize by about 1951. SP--bless them--held out for another six years.
scottychaos wrote:The 4-6-2 Pacific was probably the most common passenger steamer. Just about every railroad used Pacifics for passenger service between 1900 and 1940.
twhite wrote:As to verification for you, might I reccommend two books: RIO GRANDE, MAINLINE OF THE ROCKIES by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg.
twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: twhite wrote: Tracklayer wrote: selector wrote:Consolidations and Mikes have pulled as many passenger trains as all the others combined...maybe.Uh, excuse me!. I got jumped all over last year by several members when I suggested that Consolidations and Mikado's pulled passenger trains... I was told that both of these locos were used for freight service only. But go ahead, I'm listening...TracklayerTracklayer: Jump right back at 'em with my permission, LOL! Out here in California, the Western Pacific used one of their classes of Mikados regularly on passenger trains between Oakland and Portola, up through the Feather River Canyon. And in Colorado, the Rio Grande used their 1200 Mikes on passenger trains right after they acquired the Denver and Salt Lake, before they could lay heavier rail on the Moffat Route and open the route up to their 1700 and 1800 Northerns. Not only that, but the Rio Grande 1100 series 2-8-0's were often used as head-end helpers to the 1200 Mikes. Don't let 'em snow you, guy--they're talking through their hats!Tom Hi Tom. No, really. I had several members tell me that Mikado's and Consolidations NEVER pulled passenger service for any road, and that they were strictly freight locos only!... I wish I could pull that thread up so you could see for yourself exactly which members it was that said that. I now have old books with black and white photos taken by famed railroad photographer Lucius Beebe of said locos pulling passenger trains... Tom, would you happen to have any info on the WP's passenger pulling Mikado's ?. I'm a "BIG FAN" of the WP, and would greatly appreciate any links, photos, etc that you might know of.Tracklayer (Mark) Mark: I'd like to know their names, too, LOL! If they're MY age, then they should REALLY know better, or Senility has set in. If they're younger, then I'll just be frank and say that they're Interminably Clueless and should read up on railroad history before 1960. As to verification for you, might I reccommend two books: RIO GRANDE, MAINLINE OF THE ROCKIES by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg. Published by Howell North--can't give you a publisher's date, but it's sometime in the late 1950's or early 1960's. And if, like me, you're a Lucius Beebe fan (I'm old enough to have met him at a party in Berkeley CA, and let me tell you, he was a real character, one of the last of the Great Edwardian Gentlemen!) , you'll know that the book has wonderful shots of 1200 series Rio Grande Mikados helped by 1100 2-8-0's wheeling both the "Panoramic" and the "Exposition Flyer" up the Front Range of the Rockies, circa mid-to late 1930's, before the rails were relaid to accommodate heavier Rio Grande 1700 and 1800 4-8-4's. Anyone give you any trouble about this, just refer them to me and I will gladly chew them a new orifice for you, LOL! The other book is not as easily found, it's called WESTERN PACIFIC STEAM LOCOMOTIVES AND PASSENGER TRAINS, by Guy Dusmond, and is, from what I can ascertain, self-published in 1980. I have an autographed copy by the author. I have no idea whether it can be purchased anymore, or possibly a library near you might have a copy you can peruse. But to clarify my argument, the Western Pacific Mikados #322-326 were used between Oakland and Portola, CA primarily as passenger locomotives. They were the first Alco Mikes built for the WP with booster engines, and handled the "Scenic Limited" and "Exposition Flyer" through the Feather River Canyon. Western Pacific did not have a specific Modern 'passenger' steam locomotive until they bought second-hand 4-8-2's from the Florida East Coast in 1936. Prior to that , their passenger trains were hauled by either 2-8-0's, 4-6-0's or 2-8-2's. They DID recieve some 4-8-4's from Lima during WWII as passenger locos (duplicates of SP GS-series), but by the end of the War, WP was already committed to diesel. In fact, they were the first railroad in this state to completely diesilize by about 1951. SP--bless them--held out for another six years. Tom
Thanks for the info Tom. I really appreciate you taking the time. So you actually got to meet Mr. Beebe. Wow... I'm going to see if I can find the Guy Dusmond book you mentioned. That sounds like the one to have!. I actually wouldn't mind having a WP passenger train, but it looks like I'm going to have to custom assemble it if I do... Every now and then I see WP passenger cars sold on ebay, but about all that's available are post office/combines and observation cars. I might grab a couple of those and make up a couple of coaches from old SF cars. Then if I could lay my hands on a good used Kato version WP Mikado that I could renumber and add what ever I need to I'd have it.
R. T. POTEET wrote:I feel that an argument might be made that the most popular passenger locomotive in the U.S. in the twentieth century may well lie with the 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 wheel arrangements. ... heavier power bumped many from mainline service into the commuter pool ... some of these survivors soldiering on even into the fifties on remote branch lines,...
selector wrote:At this late stage, it might seem like picking fly poop out of the pepper, but the question as it was posed is not what we seem to be discussing. The originator used the term "popular" which literally means appeals to the masses. I don't think many folks cared much for what pulled them, as long as it was on time. So, popularity aside, the type of steam locomotive that logged the most miles in passenger service from 1900 on is what we are after. Now, who can answer the question posed that way?
Hi selector. So far, it seems that the Pacific was the most popular with most railroads, that is until the Northern came along. Actually, various time periods seem to have had their favorite locos... I wish I had thought of that fact before starting the topic. Oh well. Live and learn. Anyways, it looks as if the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler was the "it" loco from about 1900 to about 1920, then came the Pacific from about 1920 to the early 1940s followed by the Northern class from the early 1940s until dieselization in the mid to late 1950s. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time...
Tracklayer wrote: Hi selector. So far, it seems that the Pacific was the most popular with most railroads, that is until the Northern came along. Actually, various time periods seem to have had their favorite locos... I wish I had thought of that fact before starting the topic. Oh well. Live and learn. Anyways, it looks as if the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler was the "it" loco from about 1900 to about 1920, then came the Pacific from about 1920 to the early 1940s followed by the Northern class from the early 1940s until dieselization in the mid to late 1950s. If I'm wrong it won't be the first time...Tracklayer
I would say thats generally accurate, except not all railroads used Northerns in passenger service..that was the exception rather than the rule.
the ones that didnt use Northerns in the 1940's - 50's were still using the ancestral Pacifics, or Hudsons.
"the ones that didnt use Northerns in the 1940's - 50's were still using the ancestral Pacifics, or Hudsons."
And then of course there was Pennsy.
Virginian wrote: "the ones that didnt use Northerns in the 1940's - 50's were still using the ancestral Pacifics, or Hudsons."And then of course there was Pennsy.
You mean this?
http://prrsteam.mrdek.com/t_6110.html
selector wrote:So, popularity aside, the type of steam locomotive that logged the most miles in passenger service from 1900 on is what we are after. Now, who can answer the question posed that way?
Tracklayer wrote:Actually, various time periods seem to have had their favorite locos... I wish I had thought of that fact before starting the topic. Oh well. Live and learn. Anyways, it looks as if the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler was the "it" loco from about 1900 to about 1920, then came the Pacific from about 1920 to the early 1940s followed by the Northern class from the early 1940s until dieselization in the mid to late 1950s.
The final argument is that the Challengers and Northerns never got to fulfull their potential for total passenger miles hauled because of the advent of the Diesel. Many passenger steam locomotives were relegated to fast freight sooner than they would have normaly. Many modern steam locomotives went to scrap long before they were even close to being worn out. I think had their been no diesels the Northerns would have dominated until Amtrak and that would have given them the most milage record.
Texas Zepher wrote: selector wrote:So, popularity aside, the type of steam locomotive that logged the most miles in passenger service from 1900 on is what we are after. Now, who can answer the question posed that way?That is how I interpreted the question to begin with and how I've been discussing it through the whole thread. Tracklayer wrote:Actually, various time periods seem to have had their favorite locos... I wish I had thought of that fact before starting the topic. Oh well. Live and learn. Anyways, it looks as if the 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler was the "it" loco from about 1900 to about 1920, then came the Pacific from about 1920 to the early 1940s followed by the Northern class from the early 1940s until dieselization in the mid to late 1950s. Interesting observation, but I think it discounts the impact of the Mountain Class. A specific example is that many of Santa Fe's Northerns were rebuilds from Mountains. To be rebuilt means it had to have been out there in service enough to get worn out. Off the top of my head it seems that while the D&RGW had Northern's they favored the Mountain. I think this might actually be another argument favoring the Pacific as the most popular, because when the railroads migrated from it they went different directions. While everyone favored Pacifics for in their time, not everyone favored a specific successor. I know the GN hated their Challengers, while the NP and UP loved them. NYC, Milwalkee, CB&Q, and even the Santa Fe really favored the Hudsons. So generally speaking, from the Pacific it branched to Hudsons, Mountains, Challengers, and finally Northerns. This dilutes the relative milage accumulated by each successor.The final argument is that the Challengers and Northerns never got to fulfull their potential for total passenger miles hauled because of the advent of the Diesel. Many passenger steam locomotives were relegated to fast freight sooner than they would have normaly. Many modern steam locomotives went to scrap long before they were even close to being worn out. I think had their been no diesels the Northerns would have dominated until Amtrak and that would have given them the most milage record.
Hello Texas Zepher. Can you tell me what the reason was that Great Northern disliked the Challenger so much ?. Thanks.
Texas Zepher wrote: twhite wrote:As to verification for you, might I reccommend two books: RIO GRANDE, MAINLINE OF THE ROCKIES by Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg. That and also "The Trains We Road" are excellent books, eventhough I don't consider the text as the final word on the subject.
Texas:
The text might not be the final word on the subject, but the photographs are. End of argument, okay?
AntonioFP45 wrote: Don't forget the Milwaukee Road's "Hiawatha Hudsons". Regularly run at 100+ mph speeds! (I would love to see an old video clip showing of these trains whipping by at those speeds!)
Don't forget the Milwaukee Road's "Hiawatha Hudsons". Regularly run at 100+ mph speeds!
(I would love to see an old video clip showing of these trains whipping by at those speeds!)
I am with you all the way. I would love to see one of those locomotives roaring away. Unfortunately I don't think anyone got any video if the locomotives in action. If someone did, it probably isn't on any tape. If someone knows a movie out there with these locomotives, please e-mail me or tell me. I would love to know.
Happy railroading
James