Before I lock this thread, I want to offer a reminder.
If those layouts are going unrecognized or unpublished, please do something about it. It's impossible for MR to know where all the great layouts are. If you know someone with a great layout, write an article about it or send photos of it to MR.
If MR runs an article about a professionally-built layout, it's most likely because someone took the time to submit an article. If MR found it to be a layout that could inspire their readers, they published it.
In the end, when MR is reviewing manuscripts I have a feeling they're not as concerned with who built it, as much as they are concerned about whether their readers will learn from it or find inspiration.
Bergie
George, and ad hominem fallacy, no matter by Whom it was uttered, is still what it is.
I've only scanned the thread, reading most of the first page and a bit of the fifth, and here's what I think this boils down to...
1) A certain amount of disappointment that some really fine modelling being shown isn't being fully supported with explanations on how it was done. This is a fairly legitimate concern.
2) Envy. They have something you don't, and you want it. Perhaps the layout, but more likely the freedom OR the gumption to pay somebody else to build it.
Until you create your entire model railroad out of materials that aren't intended for model railroading, you've hired out part of your railroad. So skip the "oh, SoandSo bought their model railroad, they missed out on the experience" as justification for yer bellyaching. Maybe SoandSo missed out because they didn't want to build a model railroad, they wanted to operate one. Frankly, I'd only have a gripe against Bill Gates if he bought the Seattle Dome and spent 250 million turning it into a model railroad if he didn't let me come and check it out. And I'd know that even that grip would be unfounded. Its his money, he can do whatever he wants with it. That's all. And these folks in MRR and other pubs are letting us check their out their layouts, for which we should be thankful, not grousing. Furthermore, in the process of paying somebody else, they're reaping the benefits of specialization, and so are we. How many of these professinally built layouts wouldn't be built at all if the owner had to build it himself? How much money gets pumped into the hobby as a result, money that might go to Carnival Cruise lines instead?
I am constantly impressed with the layouts in MRR and others that talk about how Friend X did this, and Friend Y scratchbuilt these, and Friend Z did the wiring and .... Does that mean that the resulting layout is somehow less of a "real" model railroad? No, it doesn't.
Consider how many layouts have been built from published trackplans, or custom plans prepared by the likes of John Armstrong.... Are those layouts diminished because their builder didn't put the sweat equity into the trackplan themself? Not in my world.
Appreciate each layout on its own merits, unecumbered by envy. For in belittling someone else's pride and joy simply because they didn't put "enough" sweat into it, you merely end up belittling your own soul. And that, my fellow model railroaders, is decidely not fun.
selector wrote:It's a good thing, because you were about the get the selector's Ad Hominem of the Month Award.
John 8:7.
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
(Original response edited by author)
Never mind!
selector wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote:based on the figures quoted around here that a professional layout can cost upwards of an order of magnitude (i.e., x10) more than doing it yourself.I don't think it's resentment by the "have-nots" toward the "haves," as much as it's the "doers" vs. the "have-somebody-else-doers."All of us who have built layouts have an emotional and physical investment in them that goes beyond the financial investment. For example, I can show you a scar where hot solder from a feeder/bus connection dropped on my arm (DO'H!) during construction. I can tell you what parts my wife helped me with, and can tell you about the first test train my (now) 4-year-old ran after I got the wiring done. Moreover I can tell you the tricks I used to create the illusion you see that is my layout. I built it. It's mine. It's mine in a more meaningful and profound way than if I had bought it.I agree that if MR runs articles on professionally-built layouts, it should be from the perspective of the company that built it, not the guy/gal that wrote the check.I await the flames that will inevitably follow. Dave, despite what I have expressed in my previous posts on this thread, there clearly is a distinction to be made in the area of great challenges, whether physical or emotional/cognitive. The scaling of Mt. Everest comes to mind. It has become an industry for the "real" climbers to hoist...er, host... amateurs and would-be climbers to see the lofty peaks as those who climb on their own do. In fact, we all know that some incapably people pay to be carried up to the extent possible. I would listen with rapture to the tales of those who do it on their own, but maybe more so to those who do it without the benefit of oxygen containers. And, on it goes.... We would not expect those with integrity to claim that they climbed the peak themselves, but they can say that they have been on the top of Everest. MR shows us the Everests. How we get up there is a body's business.
Dave Vollmer wrote:based on the figures quoted around here that a professional layout can cost upwards of an order of magnitude (i.e., x10) more than doing it yourself.I don't think it's resentment by the "have-nots" toward the "haves," as much as it's the "doers" vs. the "have-somebody-else-doers."All of us who have built layouts have an emotional and physical investment in them that goes beyond the financial investment. For example, I can show you a scar where hot solder from a feeder/bus connection dropped on my arm (DO'H!) during construction. I can tell you what parts my wife helped me with, and can tell you about the first test train my (now) 4-year-old ran after I got the wiring done. Moreover I can tell you the tricks I used to create the illusion you see that is my layout. I built it. It's mine. It's mine in a more meaningful and profound way than if I had bought it.I agree that if MR runs articles on professionally-built layouts, it should be from the perspective of the company that built it, not the guy/gal that wrote the check.I await the flames that will inevitably follow.
based on the figures quoted around here that a professional layout can cost upwards of an order of magnitude (i.e., x10) more than doing it yourself.
I don't think it's resentment by the "have-nots" toward the "haves," as much as it's the "doers" vs. the "have-somebody-else-doers."
All of us who have built layouts have an emotional and physical investment in them that goes beyond the financial investment. For example, I can show you a scar where hot solder from a feeder/bus connection dropped on my arm (DO'H!) during construction. I can tell you what parts my wife helped me with, and can tell you about the first test train my (now) 4-year-old ran after I got the wiring done. Moreover I can tell you the tricks I used to create the illusion you see that is my layout. I built it. It's mine. It's mine in a more meaningful and profound way than if I had bought it.
I agree that if MR runs articles on professionally-built layouts, it should be from the perspective of the company that built it, not the guy/gal that wrote the check.
I await the flames that will inevitably follow.
Dave, despite what I have expressed in my previous posts on this thread, there clearly is a distinction to be made in the area of great challenges, whether physical or emotional/cognitive. The scaling of Mt. Everest comes to mind. It has become an industry for the "real" climbers to hoist...er, host... amateurs and would-be climbers to see the lofty peaks as those who climb on their own do. In fact, we all know that some incapably people pay to be carried up to the extent possible.
I would listen with rapture to the tales of those who do it on their own, but maybe more so to those who do it without the benefit of oxygen containers. And, on it goes.... We would not expect those with integrity to claim that they climbed the peak themselves, but they can say that they have been on the top of Everest. MR shows us the Everests. How we get up there is a body's business.
This is a very poor analogy. Even someone who pays "real" climbers to host (or hoist) him or her up the heights of Everest makes an effort. They are there in the freezing cold and the thin air.
A more correct analogy to what we are talking about here is someone who pays a professional to climb the mountain while he sits at home in his (or her) easy chair. If a magazine like National Geographic were to cover such a story, who do you think the story would focus on? The multimillionaire financier, or the professionals who did the climbing? The latter obviously, with, perhaps some insight provide by the former in a side bar.
Let me repeat, I'm not a "purist" trying to decree what it is that makes a "real" model railroader. However anyone chooses to enjoy this hobby is fine by me. I am not trying to tell MR how to run their magazine. I just feel it would irresponsible of me to give MR tacit approval to something that I have reservations about.
mononguy63 wrote: There've been several posts in this thread talking (complaining) about people plunking down big money to have their layouts built for them, inferring that only professionally-built layouts are expensive and the well-off are the ones who have them done. Well, just look at 95 percent of the layouts featured in MR. They're larger than anything I'd ever aspire to, extensively scenicked (trees is pretty durned expensive things, what's a small forest cost?), well-detailed, large fleets of locomotives, etc. My point is that it isn't just the ones having their layouts built for them who are dumping lots of greenbacks into model trains. Most layouts I read about, regardless of their size or creator, are so far into the realm of fantasy for me that it's rather immaterial who actually built them. They're just fun to look at.Wouldn't it be fun seeing a series of articles in MR entitled "Building a Modest Sized Layout on the Cheap?" I won't hold my breath.
There've been several posts in this thread talking (complaining) about people plunking down big money to have their layouts built for them, inferring that only professionally-built layouts are expensive and the well-off are the ones who have them done. Well, just look at 95 percent of the layouts featured in MR. They're larger than anything I'd ever aspire to, extensively scenicked (trees is pretty durned expensive things, what's a small forest cost?), well-detailed, large fleets of locomotives, etc. My point is that it isn't just the ones having their layouts built for them who are dumping lots of greenbacks into model trains. Most layouts I read about, regardless of their size or creator, are so far into the realm of fantasy for me that it's rather immaterial who actually built them. They're just fun to look at.
Wouldn't it be fun seeing a series of articles in MR entitled "Building a Modest Sized Layout on the Cheap?" I won't hold my breath.
I would say based on the figures quoted around here that a professional layout can cost upwards of an order of magnitude (i.e., x10) more than doing it yourself.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Actually, there was just such an article a few years ago. It was about building a small HO layout for about $500.
Don't remember the issue. Sorry.
Andre
easyaces wrote:As I recall, a few years back MR featured Actor Gary Colemans layout, and it was professionally built. Case in point !!
Actually, I believe that was in RMC.
selector wrote: Railphotog wrote: Model Railroading is a hobby, a passtime, an activity for people to do creative work, relax, get a feeling of accomplishment. It does not compare with house building or designing, well drilling, crack filling, etc. They are jobs where people make their living. Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby. We all know what the world's oldest profession is, and it has nothing to do with "work". No, it is entirely in the realm of gratification, just as this hobby is. In Canada, we will be legalizing it soon enough, since it it not only pervasive, but marginalizes those who indulge in it, either as the purveyor or the buyer. It is reduced, thereby, to an argument over values and morals as to whether one should buy the service or "do it one's self." I'll let the legions of buyers speak for themselves about comparing the latter to the former.
Railphotog wrote: Model Railroading is a hobby, a passtime, an activity for people to do creative work, relax, get a feeling of accomplishment. It does not compare with house building or designing, well drilling, crack filling, etc. They are jobs where people make their living. Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby.
Model Railroading is a hobby, a passtime, an activity for people to do creative work, relax, get a feeling of accomplishment. It does not compare with house building or designing, well drilling, crack filling, etc. They are jobs where people make their living. Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby.
We all know what the world's oldest profession is, and it has nothing to do with "work". No, it is entirely in the realm of gratification, just as this hobby is. In Canada, we will be legalizing it soon enough, since it it not only pervasive, but marginalizes those who indulge in it, either as the purveyor or the buyer. It is reduced, thereby, to an argument over values and morals as to whether one should buy the service or "do it one's self." I'll let the legions of buyers speak for themselves about comparing the latter to the former.
I don't think that is the kind of "house" Bob was talking about!
Bob,Layout building is something everybody doesn't enjoy-I hate building bench work and I suspect there are thousands like me.Another thing the LAYOUT IS NOT the hobby its only PART of the hobby.One can have museum quality locomotives and cars and NOT need a layout to enjoy the hobby.You see to that person enjoyment is detailing locos and cars.Others may build craftsman buildings and place those on dioramas..
As far as "Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby." Show me the law that states one can not have their layout built-or anything else as far as that goes to include structures..How about the guys and gals that operate solely on a club's layout?? Didn't somebody build that layout other then the guy/gal that comes along later and joins the club so he/she will have a place to run their models?
So you see layout building isn't all that important especially the part who builds it..Well unless it boils down to being jealous or perhaps a ego problem because some may see this hobby as a contest and a way to thump on their chest and say "See what I built?"
IF I had the money I would consider having my next industrial switching layout custom built to my specifications.You see its hard to build a layout when you have one good hand and I don't want unsolicited ideas from friends that would help build the layout if I were to ask them.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
We all know what the world's oldest profession is, and it has nothing to do with "work". No, it is entirely in the realm of gratification, just as this hobby is. In Canada, we will be legalizing it soon enough, since it is not only pervasive, but marginalizes those who indulge in it, either as the purveyor or the buyer. It is reduced, thereby, to an argument over values and morals as to whether one should buy the service or "do it one's self." I'll let the legions of buyers speak for themselves about comparing the latter to the former.
Have fun with your trains
SpaceMouse wrote: Railphotog wrote:Model Railroading is a hobby, a passtime, an activity for people to do creative work, relax, get a feeling of accomplishment. It does not compare with house building or designing, well drilling, crack filling, etc. They are jobs where people make their living. Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby. Are you sayin then that a person who lacks the time or skills to build a nice layout, or simply likes operations, but doesn't like building models or scenery, should go without?
Railphotog wrote:Model Railroading is a hobby, a passtime, an activity for people to do creative work, relax, get a feeling of accomplishment. It does not compare with house building or designing, well drilling, crack filling, etc. They are jobs where people make their living. Having someone else build your layout is not your hobby.
Are you sayin then that a person who lacks the time or skills to build a nice layout, or simply likes operations, but doesn't like building models or scenery, should go without?
I think we are loosing the frame of reference here. People can enjoy the hobby any way the wish - the more the merrier! I'm just concerned that for every professionally built layout featured in MR there are 10 layouts built by people who have devoted years (often a lifetime) to the hobby whose achievements go unrecognized, or at very least, unpublished.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: I've been thinking about saying this for a while. When you build a house, you don't do it yourself--why?You pay an architect to designe it--why?The same thing goes for anything. If you can't acheive the size, quality, look on your own, then the only option is to beg someone else to do it or hire it done. I think it would be really cool to have a 50 x 100 foot layout. I could never build it on my own--there's just not enough time in the rest of my life to make it the way I would want.
I've been thinking about saying this for a while.
When you build a house, you don't do it yourself--why?
You pay an architect to designe it--why?
The same thing goes for anything. If you can't acheive the size, quality, look on your own, then the only option is to beg someone else to do it or hire it done. I think it would be really cool to have a 50 x 100 foot layout. I could never build it on my own--there's just not enough time in the rest of my life to make it the way I would want.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
SpaceMouse wrote: selector wrote: It is like hiring drywallers when you get to that stage of home construction. Purists would say, "What, you didn't do it all yourself?! Well...!!" Whatever, Dude, I hate drywalling, or I don't have the time, or I don't have the skill, and I will happily pay someone who has a duty, by virtue of his contract with me, to do a good job of it. Does that mean it shouldn't thereafter appear in Homes & Gardens? C'mon!Dang it. I've been waiting two days to say this then when I get around to it, a customer comes in before I can hit send and you beat me to it.
selector wrote: It is like hiring drywallers when you get to that stage of home construction. Purists would say, "What, you didn't do it all yourself?! Well...!!" Whatever, Dude, I hate drywalling, or I don't have the time, or I don't have the skill, and I will happily pay someone who has a duty, by virtue of his contract with me, to do a good job of it. Does that mean it shouldn't thereafter appear in Homes & Gardens? C'mon!
It is like hiring drywallers when you get to that stage of home construction. Purists would say, "What, you didn't do it all yourself?! Well...!!" Whatever, Dude, I hate drywalling, or I don't have the time, or I don't have the skill, and I will happily pay someone who has a duty, by virtue of his contract with me, to do a good job of it. Does that mean it shouldn't thereafter appear in Homes & Gardens? C'mon!
Dang it. I've been waiting two days to say this then when I get around to it, a customer comes in before I can hit send and you beat me to it.
Sowwy 'bout dat.
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
trainfan1221 wrote:Not everybody has the resources to build a layout themselves, I have a hard enough time with a relatively small one. So if they get a pro do it, and there are enough who advertise in the magazine, I don't see the big deal. Its about enjoying the hobby. Besides if they are designing it themselves and coming up with the operating scheme then they still have that much. as for whether or not it should be featured.. if it's a nice layout and worthy of attention then why not? as long as the person who owns it isn't taking credit for something he didn't do I see no big problem with it. I don't do much scratchbuilding and I am sure a lot of others don't and I don't think that that's what its all about. It's great if you can, but if not you do what you can even if it means getting a professional to help build for you..something that I will agree I'd never be able to afford.
I've been following this thread with some interest and fell somewhat qualified to respond. You see, I'm one of those who make a living building layouts for those who can afford to hire me. Its a great job, doing the thing that I love and getting paid besides. It's always a bonus to see a layout I worked on in print, like the Lenhoff project.
Raildreams has a great staff of perhaps a dozen people that contribute to the final look and get virtually no credit for their work. Its only a satisfied client that matters. For every 10 projects, maybe one or two get a feature in MR. The editors at MR are interested in two things, ad revenue and selling magazines. And they use (or write) articles to achieve that end.
They do appear to struggle with the concept of showing professionally built layouts, fearing the backlash from some readers (such as has appeared in this forum) and it seems they're trying to offset that with the abundance of How-to's so that average modelers can upgrade their skills and keep this hobby alive.
There is nothing that I do as a modelbuilder that makes me any better, except refining my skills so I can do it faster. I don't have the luxury of tweaking a 4 sq. in. junkyard scene over and over as I did when I had a hobby.
As for MR, my inspiration comes more from Kalmbachs How-to books by some of the real talented people in the hobby, Furlow, Hayden, Bob Smaus, and Pelle Soeborg. I find I'm long past the 4x8 in-house projects with unpainted Walthers building, that continue month after month. However, these do have their place in getting those youngsters started in the hobby, so I'm happy to see them.
So don't be too distressed when you see a pro-built-layout featured in a magazine. There aren't may of us and our egos have been minimized in the rush to get one project out the door and another started.
Chris