Again thanks for all of the replies. This layout is currently in a mall and there is a good chance it will stay in there. It is in an unused store, and has been there for a few years. It has sat idle for at least a year, and needs TLC and fresh blood and ideas. It is not modular or a Holiday display. The area it is in is the Anthracite Coal mining country of central PA. The area as a whole has been depressed for a long time, though they are now getting a new surge of industry, mostly large wharehouses. A new generation is looking to preserve the past rich history of the area. Much of the coal mining infrastructure, about 98% of it has been torn down. What we are trying to do is create a layout that shows the area at it's peak. Using your feedback it will need to be historically correct and educational on one level, but entertaining for all, on another. We hope to make it a destination that people who come to the area to see other attractions can stop by on the way through. It's very conveniently located of a major interstate Route 81. Local attractions in a say 50 mile radius include an amusement park Knoebles Grove, a Victorian town with train rides Jim Thorpe, 2 coal mine tours the Pioneer Tunnel and the #9 mine, Yuengling Brewery, at a little further Steamtown. Many people get off the Frackville exit of 81 to eat, so if they know there is decent train display right there, we should lure them in. There is also a fairly large antique and collectibles co-op 2 stores away from where the layout is.
It currently has a double main of "0" 2 rail, a double main of 3 rail "0", and a bit of HO for perspective. One of the great engineering feats of the past in the area was a railroad Plane that pulled loaded coal cars up a 70% grade. Until the Panama canal was built it had the largest steam engines in the world. The area also had a canal to ship coal before the railroads. The small town of Port Carbon, outside of Pottsville was once the busiest inland port in the world. Almost impossible to beleive if you see it now.
There is a model of the Plane but it is static, we are going to make it a working model. We also plan to have an operating Coal Breaker with a rotary dumper, and a cut away mountian side showing the inside workings of a coal mine.
One of the other principals and myself are very big on it not being the same trains running all the time, running at proto speeds, and yes in opposite directions. All of this feedback will be passed out to potential club members.
I asked for links for other public layouts, not ot copy them, but to see what is out there. Personally I've only seen Roadside America (35 years ago it was covered with dust and moldy water ) Choo Choo Barn last year, and a few club open houses.
Well thanks again for all of your feedback. Dave
I've read with interest (almost) everything that was written and all seem to have valid points. I've done more operations than observation on public layouts. I've been in some possible turn off positions. This is what I tried to do:
1. I usually stayed with my modules and did car shifting. (I don't think they trusted me with the main line. I thought that was boring anyway and liked running my things the way I wanted). I wouldin't run anything until someone was coming by. I had a "chug'chug" sound car behind my engine. I would start some operation to attract their attention. My goal was to see how long I could keep the observer in front of my 5 modules. I always spoke to them and thanked them for coming. If a car derailed, I would smile as I reached over the backdrop to fix it and say, "Sometimes in life we need God to reach down and give us a hand." They always laughed.
2. I wasn't and am not knowledgeable about a lot of technical railroad things. When I was asked a question of which I didn't know the answer I would smile and say, "That's a good question. I don't know the answer but the fellow over there (I would point to our inhouse rr brain, describe him in some way) and say, "That is (his first name) and I bet he knows the answer." No one ever said or looked like they were thinking anything bad about me.
3. When asked a question about some piece of equipment, ie "Is that a bla bla bla engine?" Most of the time I didn't know. I would say, "What do you think it is?" They would tell me and I would say, "You sure know your stuff." If they weren't sure, I would answer like question 2, above.
4. The first time I had a module in our club display, I was asked to bring my second module that was still under construction. It had the track, but not much else. The club needed the module and just labeled it, "a module under construction." People seem to enjoy seeing something in process.
Thanks for the chance to tell my story.
Walter, still learning at 71
Fellers,
You know, I'll also jump on the bandwagon here regarding displays about "how it's done" and that sort of behind-the-scenes stuff. It's wonderful to view a beautiful layout or module, but it's also informative to see how a layout gets built. The various stages can seem overwhelming to some folks, and more than a few i have overheard saying they'd be interested in starting out in the hobby, but it all looks so overwhelming.
A nice, well thought out and simple to grasp display about the various things that go into a layout or module would be, IMHO, quite well received. Now to build benchwork, how to make trees, how to paint rocks, ballast track, use turf materials, etc.
Respects,
Dave Vollmer wrote: The general response trend seems to be clean, friendly, professional operators with a neat, clean, well-running layout. I think if you hit those areas pretty hard, success will be easy.
I think that summarizes it pretty well. No matter what sort of display you've chosen to model, it will be much more appealing to people if it's well presented by friendly, enthusiastic people. Nothing is a bigger turnoff than apathy. Which reminds me...
I attended a show recently with a huge modular display that attracted a lot of attention, but the club members remained in the center talking only to each other. My friends and I were baffled by this behavior, since the members are there to represent and promote the hobby, and ostensibly it's a labor of love. The logistics of hauling all of those modules and equipment was no small undertaking, yet there wasn't any club literature available, and furthermore none of the members looked like they were having any fun! If I had been a hobby outsider it wouldn't have left me with a very positive impression of model railroading. For Pete's sake, if you're concerned about the state of the hobby, talk to the public and answer their questions, and show them why they should bother to shell out their hard-earned bucks in the first place. And yes, soap, shampoo, and razors should be standard issue at all clubs. 'nuff said.
Dave V, I don't see why a transition-era layout would attract less interest than contemporary equipment. To my way of thinking (and I don't know if this is too much of an insider's perspective) people tend to be more interested in things as they used to be, as opposed to everyday sights with all of the romance of a box store (no offense to anyone modeling present day roads ).
Part of this is novelty and nostalgia, but I also think it's because most people would prefer to see some steam, even in model form. People don't turn out in droves for diesel excursions, but live steam literally stops traffic. I'll never forget the sight of people nearly driving off the road when C&O 614 blasted through their towns. Then there was the guy in a pickup truck blowing through red lights to keep up with us, but I digress...
I agree with those who've said that staging areas or trains climbing a helix can be just as interesting as the finished layout, a little behind-the-scenes backstage pass.
One thing that fascinated me as a kid was a club I saw with a large operating hump yard. The switcher kept spotting cars over the Kadee magnet and they'd uncouple and roll down the incline through the open turnouts. They used compressed air from tubes aimed up between the ties to brake the cars. It was prototypical, but it was also like a sorting game, and more interesting than the typical switching operations. I watched that for quite a while.
On the humorous side of things, I worked with an older guy at one exhibit who loved kids, and they loved him; he was like every one's grandpa. He would conjure certain point-to-point trains out of tunnels with his wooden train whistle, and it never got old watching the eyes on the little ones bug out when he did it. Another big hit was the runaway boxcar, a boxcar with an Athearn chassis that would barrel down the hill, and then back up!
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Soo Line fan wrote: Run lots of trains. I am still using DC and am constantly being told that DCC offers great opportunities to run numerous trains on the same track. Yet on these large DCC displays I only see one train circling the layout. Most of the time they have 2 mainlines and yet you only see one train running.
Amen to that. When I was in a club in college two of us would eventually be left with the club modular layout all to ourselves, so we ran 5-6 trains at the same time, racing back and forth to the power cut off on different modules to hold trains. We had a ball and got many comments from the viewers about how much fun we appeared to be having. I don't understand the big club modular layouts displayed with one train per main. Don't tell me how great DCC is when you are only running one or two trains.
I would add:
- if you have a big yard, put some stuff in it. Clubs around here display yards with 12+ tracks that are sometimes 36' + long and have nothing but track in them. A yard switcher working that giant yard would be great. I might faint if I ever saw one.
- Operate something that uses all the sidings and industry tracks. Most of the time, these are glorified display tracks. Show people what trains do, especially if you have 2 mains.
- I would be great to see trains running in opposite directions on the same main. The only club I have seen run trains on a single main and hold trains at sidings was the San Diego Model Railroad club. They are also very friendly (I have been on both trips to San Diego and have been invited to tour behind the scenes both times. Amazing layout and great members!).
I have gotten so jaded that I hardly look at the club displays at shows anymore because it is just trains running around the track again. Nobody shows how fun it is to really run trains on a nice layout. You are not convincing any fence sitters to jump into the hobby going round and round.
I have seen the write-ups on free-mo modular set ups and would love to see that in action. Operate like the real thing. It doesn't mean no action.
Of course, there's a certain artificiality to these responses... after all, we're all serious model railroaders. What turns us on is probably more stringent than what might turn on non-model railroaders. I get excited when I see a true-to-prototype consist, but that doesn't mean the majority of your visitors will. If you set your standards too high, you might intimidate potential new hobbyists.
I echo the sentiment of trying not to look like a circus clown... [:o) ]I keep a collection of nice embroidered PRR apparel with a nice, neat nametag I wear at shows. That way folks know what I'm doing without making them think they'll need to dispense with taste and normalcy to enjoy the hobby! {diving for cover!!!}
The general response trend seems to be clean, friendly, professional operators with a neat, clean, well-running layout. I think if you hit those areas pretty hard, success will be easy.
Best of luck!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave-the-Train wrote: Some things you go to for the laugh... and some of them you laugh discreetly if you like your nose the shape it is.A few MRRers don't mind some ribbing but an awful lot take themselves very seriously (especially at shows) and can get very miffed at any humour.
Some things you go to for the laugh... and some of them you laugh discreetly if you like your nose the shape it is.
A few MRRers don't mind some ribbing but an awful lot take themselves very seriously (especially at shows) and can get very miffed at any humour.
Better to have the shape of one's nose altered than to spend one's life looking down it at the accomplishments of others.
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
I am delighted to be able to say that an incredible number of shows in this country not only aspire to the high standards that my lists suggest but achieve many and even most of them.
The one big thing (that really bugs me) is that so many are so bad at giving directions (even sketch maps are plain wrong) of how to get there... the worst crime being no directions at all from a nearby rail station...
Midnight Railroader wrote: "And with the birth of the Artist came the inevitable afterbirth - the Critic!"-History of the World, Part 1-GeorgeCute, but wrong.If you charge me admission, I am a CUSTOMER, not a critic. As a customer, I have the right to expect value for my money.
"And with the birth of the Artist came the inevitable afterbirth - the Critic!"-History of the World, Part 1-George
"And with the birth of the Artist came the inevitable afterbirth - the Critic!"
-History of the World, Part 1
Cute, but wrong.
If you charge me admission, I am a CUSTOMER, not a critic. As a customer, I have the right to expect value for my money.
I'll bet you are loads of laughs at a junior high band concert!
tatans wrote:WOW ! Just reading a few replies I would say a lot of people are really expecting some unbelievable standards to be met, Man, some expectations I wouldn't expect from a federally funded national transportation museum. A lot of comments, I hope, are not wishes but the same standards as the writer, some seem unrealistically impossible to achieve unless the display is constructed by professional modelers. Isn't this a hobby???
Have fun with your trains
This may have been mentioned before but I'm going to add my anyway.
Make it kid friendly. Put your head at the height of a child and see what kind of view you have. If your layout is up high, provide a couple risers so the kids can see.
My 7 year old and I attended a show a few weeks ago and the highlight for him (and me) was when one of the club members handed him the throttle and asked, "Wanna try it?".
Turn off: 1. Spaghetti bowl with trains running hither and yon with no apparent purpose.
2. Too tight, unrealistic curves without easements causing the superspeeded trains
to lurch aboutl
Turn on: 1. Realistic trackwork and a layout that at least appears to be point to point.
2. realistic curves with easements and controlled speed, operation like the prototype.
3. Prototypical purposeful car and train movements.
4. Well done scenery to frame the trains without "cutesey" scenes.
Thanks for the opportunity to air my views. Happy railroading. jc5729
Midnight Railroader wrote: tatans wrote:WOW ! Just reading a few replies I would say a lot of people are really expecting some unbelievable standards to be met, Man, some expectations I wouldn't expect from a federally funded national transportation museum. A lot of comments, I hope, are not wishes but the same standards as the writer, some seem unrealistically impossible to achieve unless the display is constructed by professional modelers. Isn't this a hobby??? Which ones, specifically, are you referring to?
Which ones, specifically, are you referring to?
Most clubs are not build by Professional Modelers, but by us who learn to help and build what is needed. That may be the reason so many layouts are torn down and rebuilt over the years.
This is a wish list in general and some of us probably are dreaming, but it is nice to dream.
Southwest Chief's
first post is the thing I would heavily support. This is one of the best comments I have ever read on that forum - in general and specific to that thread. By respecting his thoughts as rules you can do almost everything on a layout and show session!
Only few specific things from my point of view:
1.: in general avoid an OVERLOADING of your layout. my experience is that most visitors don't want to see EVERYTHING on ONE layout. That includes running any possible kind of train, running autos, buses..., a circus, a narrow guage part, etc. All that can be fine, but seperately! Overloading also is to use a double track main, a large yard, a heavy industry with own tracks, a branch line, several villages and maybe a giant bridge (of whatever kind) atop the layout - all that on limited space. Unfortunately I have seen many layouts of that type. If their owners like it that's ok, but many wonder why vistors go away qickly. Overloading doesn't look REAL.
2.: take care concerning sound engines! That also can be fine, but only if there is a chance that not only the train itself can disappear a certain time, but also its sounds.
3.: most important to me would be to USE THE BROADEST POSSIBLE CURVES!!! I don't use any curve smaller than 80 inches radius - yes that's large and I agree that this isn't possible everywhere, but another experience of mine is that most visitors look MUCH happier to more realistic curves than very small ones (trains also operate MUCH better on these) - because that looks real.
4.: as others already mentioned: run prototypical speeds! I even tend to run them a bit slower than real because space is limited on ANY layout, and the longer a train is underway the better.
Southwest Chief wrote:Midnight, I really like the link you have in your signature. Great railroad I remember fondly back when I visited it in 1985. I liked the original layout a lot more then the new one. Santa Fe all the Way!
I really like the link you have in your signature. Great railroad I remember fondly back when I visited it in 1985. I liked the original layout a lot more then the new one. Santa Fe all the Way!
Thanks! That model railroad meant a lot to me as a kid, and, yeah, it ALMOST made me a lifetime ATSF modeller. Always have loved those warbonnets....
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
One thing I cannot STAND is mixing time periods. For example, a 4-8-8-4 pulling brand new TTX TBOX's. If you wish to run steam, fine. At least run prototypical freight cars.
Smoking is a no-no. A designated smoking area outside should do fine.
Clean restrooms are a must.
Complete scenery is also great for "business."
I'm probably repeating some things. Good luck!
Matt
I like prototypical speeds and a layout designed with viewing points when I can stand and watch model trains simulating a real life like situation. At these spots, you should not see a mass amount of other tracks or trains, but much like real life where you can watch a train approach and go by as we do in real prototypes situations. This is a hard thing to do with a small layout, but I am referring to layouts like the San Diego Balboa Park Museum layout that is modeled after the Loop and much of the trackwork and areas between Bakersfield and Mojave.
Detail is important also and gives interest and life to a layout.
I want to thank all who took the time to write some well thought out feedback. I will be presenting this to the club members to study when we meet on Sunday. There is a lot of "customer" and fellow hobbiest feedback here, that should be shared with any public display. Maybe our fair host here could turn this into an article.
I can say one thing as far as breakage goes. I just helped a local club dismantle their Holiday display. They had about 5-6 layouts from z through G. The amount of breakage and theft was unbelievable. Especially in the N and HO displays. These displays were manned and watched over, but they had a great turnout, and one can only do so much in a crowd. MANY trucks and couplers will be replaced. I guess this just goes with the territory.
Thanks again, Dave
In addition, I don't care about era's clashing as long as a certain era isn't trying to be represented on the layout.
Beegle55
One of the club layouts in my area usually really turns me on, but this past year's open house, I was rather disappionted. There were just some old people setting around taking donations, and two kids goofing off and acting foolishly if you will around the layout, and I figured kids will be kids, but as it turned out, they were the ones RUNNING THE LAYOUT. Dust was a big issue and they hadn't added ANYTHING since my last visit. Might try the other club out in my area in replacement of this disappointment.
The following are my likes and dislikes.
What I like:
Besides the common scales and themes that are represented, It's nice to see layouts - both big, small, modules, diaoramas, completed, or in the stages of construction - that are in minority scales, gauges, or unique themes.
I enjoy seeing unusual scratch-built or kit built structures or rolling stock that are well-detailed and weathered or in the process of being detailed.
Friendly model railroaders willing to talk to and help out people, including kids, who express an interest in their layouts.
Layouts that are geared to be operated by viewers, including interested kids (under the supervision of the owners).
People who recommend (not sell) books, magazines, websites, or other venues to help potential model railroaders.
These are my dislikes:
Ubitiquitous layouts with shiny, unweathered, unpainted, common plastic structures or rolling stock and locos.
More dealers than layouts; especially dealers who are trying to sell common items at more than MSRP - items that can be found in any LHS (or Toys R Us).
Layouts staffed by guys wearing railroad suits, engineer's hats, or vests with tons of RR buttons.
Gruff, rude, layout people who show a disinterested, annoyed, cliquish, bored or "holier than thou" attitude when asked questions.
Overpriced admission charges or "in your face" promoters trying to sell you something.
"No outside food allowed" policy. This is designed to rip you off by selling overpriced, mediocre, refreshments. (I'll either not go in or bring my own)
Professional modelers (people who model more as a business than a hobby) that try to sell their wares or services to amateurs or beginners.
Regarding clashing themes and time frames: Out of place locos, rolling stock, or structures, as long as the owners are aware and are not trying to depict a specific prototype or era, do not bother me.
Midnight Railroader wrote:[quote user="PA&ERR"] You see, when I visit a layout at an open house or trainshow I realize that the people who built and operate it are not professionals. It is a hobby! As the saying goes, its their layout.If they charge the public to see the layout, then the person shelling out the money has the right to expect the sorts of things listed above. Some would say that's true even if they DON'T charge, if they're going to invite an audience.
You see, when I visit a layout at an open house or trainshow I realize that the people who built and operate it are not professionals. It is a hobby! As the saying goes, its their layout.
As the saying goes, its their layout.
If they charge the public to see the layout, then the person shelling out the money has the right to expect the sorts of things listed above. Some would say that's true even if they DON'T charge, if they're going to invite an audience.
cruikshank wrote:Gathering infomation for this new club. When you go to a public display layout what items, attractions make you glad you came, saw, possibly paid or donated. And what makes you think, boy that was lame. Do you like to see operations? Do you need to see many trains running? Are you more excited about realistic modeling and operation or do you like to see the Carnival stuff, many motorized accesories etc. I'd like to here your feedback to pass on to the club members when we meet. Thanks, Dave
To answer the actual post on a more personnal level...
"Glad I came..."
Finding it easy, good quality trains being run well with a bit of switching but mostly trains going by (that's what they do), good food, friendly people and maybe come away with a couple of new models.
I DO like bring-and-buy stalls. They recycle stuff that the trade no longer has.
"Lame..."
Well, if the owner is yawning what does he/she expect me to make of it?
None of us should expect Disneyworld in a village hall... but sometimes we get lucky.
Trains running? What else? Certainly that's what the public want/expect. If you want static displays you go to a museum or model armour and stuff like that.
A layout doesn't have to be complete... it does help the ordnary public... but one club years ago (Crawley in the 70s) started their layout at their forst show and the public saw it develop every two years... a lot of people liked that. Kind of trains-by-instalments/episodes.
Working on a layout is surprisingly appealing to the public but there are a lot of safety issues now. When it can be done you need at least as many people to answer questions as to work... saves on busted thumbs, burns and parents covering children's ears...
A lot of shows and meets have demonstrations... either in hall or in a classroom. I think that the latter is better. Quality varies enormously.
Generally I find that European layouts visiting usually do the best in running trains often enough. this may be because only the really TOP layouts are worth the expense of transport and accomodation. They also have the benefit of being something different and frequently have a new quirk that hasn't been thought of here.
An all switching layout is a waste of space to me... and usually the one where the operator is yawning... (Yup! I'm biased)!
I've never seen a circus, dockside, fleet revue (hundreds of tiny ships0 or anything like that that seemed worth the space given to it. I have seen bus collections... lines and lines of model buses of all shapes and sizes... great for the collector... nobody was stopping to look much (can be useful opposite a busy layout with a crowd... the collector usually looks fed-up).
One group (S7) put on a really well detailed, accurate layout... and ran to timetable... by the clock... so nothing moved for half hours at a time... this was an insult... i don't think that they got invited anywhere again but don't know.
Lifting bridges and car float ramps are fun but MUST be reliable... and mustn't leak. I've seen both. they are better when they are part of something bigger... I've even seen a drw bridge and a swing bridge work... I think the former was on a Broad Gauge layout.
Small layouts are okay but they need to be different and or have something going on to hold the attention that isn't repetative.
Years ago when 00n9 was new someone built a sort-of Himalayan mountain railway with lots of loops going in and out of tunnels in the mountains and across bridges. even though the trains always followed the one route up or down it was fascinating to see them popping in and out, trundling over the bridges and whizzing their small rods round (steam of course). that layout was only about 3'x3'. The kids (including me) loved it.
Two different layouts that really held the crowds fr ages were just lay-by stracks beside two track mainline. All that really happened was that trains ran through either way or went into/out of the loops... BUT there was always something on scene... rolling or waiting the road. very little scenery so the time frame wasn't specific. They did run within era(s) at different times of day so that you got like trains together.
The trouble I've always experienced with big layouts and, especially big junctions, is that they take so much time to build and maintain that no-one is up to show standard to work them properly... so most of the thing goes to waste.
There does seem to be a huge problem that enthusiasts spend ages on detail but don't have a clue how to run the thing even reasonably.
Our signalling practices are very specific which means that (if you're a grumpy old git like me) layouts can be very easily spoiled by poor/bad signalling.
Speed can always wreck a good scene. leave whiz-around to thomas and hogwarts in a corner for the kids.
I have seen a Thomas switching layout for kids with the controls at the front, challenges for the kids to achieve and prizes. Loads of kids loved this. sensibly they wouldn't let the big kids (like me) play with it when the little ones were around.
"Spot the seagulls/bunnies/tigers/dinosaurs etc" keeps children happy for a layout or two. I often think that parents should put more thought into providing a good visit for their kids... if you are taking kids take the kids... if you are going to watch trains/learn techniques/buy models/bits do that... DON'T inflict it on the kids...
Kids love layout bits that are at their level that the adults have to bend down to have pointed out to them. There is one layout of a station in the Pennines where the track is at adult level and the town is below (crossed by bridges)... kids spend ages spotting all the things going on in town. This could be a great set up for a logging layout with the short trains climbing between levels and parts of the camp/worksite.
Gimmicks wear off very fast.
if it's technical and "clever" it MUST keep working...
It is almost essential for any size of layout to have set it up and got used to running it 9and ironed out the faults) a number of times before exhibiting it.
Something I should have put in the last post... always take more board joining bolts, electrical jumpers and such stuff than you actually need. When you only have enough you can garuantee that you will lose/bend/break at least one... It's also best to number code them to location and have a practiced setting up/knocking down. (It makes doing the show more relaxed and better which means a better show...
Loading/unloading coal/stone/logs is a flop 98% of the time. It also has practical problems... often dust. That said I have seen one logging layout that had a working cable loading system. The guy had really thought it out and had invisible magnets in the logs so that they picked up every single time... not sure how he dropped them off??? I only saw that layout once and it has to be said that the operators were having to keep it down to half hour sessions and were still knackered at the end of the day. (2/3 operators on at a time 9-12 operators a day...WOW! Hard work! They achieved it though.... but I knew one of them and his muscles ached for days aft