130MM,Let me ask you this..When did management figure out how to run a railroad? In all of my railroading years it never happen and I don't think its happening today either.
There was a lot of things I was taught in the class room but,old line conductors taught me real railroading.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ok here are the answers.
If I told you to put that "dumb" car on 1A would you have any idea?
That is a car that shows up in a inbound train consist missing its paper work.The car must be held till the paper work is located and forwarded to the yard office of the yard that is holding the car.
How about "Shaking 'em loose"?
That is when a engineer checks to make sure all the brakes are indeed release.He will pull forward till the train stalls and he will reverse the engine and back up till the train stalls,he will pull forward until the train stallls..He will continue this until the caboose moves on the last forward pull.Now he will proceed to make a running brake test and now he knows all is indeed well with the brakes.
How about a "grumpy locomotive"?
That is a locomotive that gives the crew problems through out the run..Not a nice experience since I been there and done that as a brakeman.
"Letting 'em rip!"?
Kicking cars in flat switching.
Boys,it gonna be cold cuts for us!
That means you are going to arrive late at the away terminal because of heavy opposing traffic which means you had lots of siding time,a delay due to track work,derailment etc.Sadly that may mean the Railroad Y dinning room is closed except for cold cut sandwiches.
Got a smoker!
A hot box or dragging brake..A flamer is a freight car on fire.
grayfox1119 wrote: ERIEDIAMOND: Thank you for your explanation, I now get the point ( no pun intended). The key to this understanding was that the FLANGE of the lead wheel, and all subsequent following wheels on either locomotive and/or cars, hits the points where they contact the main rail forcing the hold back action of the spring tension. So as each wheel clears the points, the switch would spring closed, then open again as the next set of wheels hit the points. As trains on the passing siding would have to go from stop position, they would be travelling slow out of the siding, thereby not causing any danger to derailment by "highballing" through the Spring Switch.
ERIEDIAMOND: Thank you for your explanation, I now get the point ( no pun intended). The key to this understanding was that the FLANGE of the lead wheel, and all subsequent following wheels on either locomotive and/or cars, hits the points where they contact the main rail forcing the hold back action of the spring tension. So as each wheel clears the points, the switch would spring closed, then open again as the next set of wheels hit the points. As trains on the passing siding would have to go from stop position, they would be travelling slow out of the siding, thereby not causing any danger to derailment by "highballing" through the Spring Switch.
Greyfox: you have the basics of spring switch operation down, except for the spring cylinder is filled with hydraulic oil to slow the return of the points to reduce the repeated pounding of each wheel set on the point. So the points don't snap back right away, but there is few seconds delay. Because of this delay the speed over the turnout is not governed by the presence of a spring switch, but rather by the number of the frog.
A train which runs through a switch almost never is the one that derails. The train will make it through the switch. It's usually the next train to make a facing point move that will derail; hours or days later. With the rods bent or the stand broken, the points will gap allowing the wheel to pick the point.
GF, I noticed you live in Mass. If you are ever in Reading, stop at the McDonald's on Rt. 28. It's right at a railroad crossing. Just 50 ft. east of the big crossing is a small crossing, and just east of that is a spring switch where a double track section ends, and becomes single track. You can stand in the side street practically right next ot the switch and watch it in operation. Not that I'm telling you to trespass
Brakie: I'm not saying you are lying. I can't understand how anyone can run through a switch without damaging it. It goes against everything I've ever been taught. And if it can be done, why don't we do it all the time? You'd think management would be pushing for it, with all the time saved; a lot fewer stops to throw switches, etc.
Very close.
I will give the answers later..I would like to give others a shot though..
I been thinking about doing a odd railroad term topic for some time..The old gray beard PRR conductors that train me had some odd slangs to say the least.
BRAKIE: Larry, let me give this a shot in the dark from purely a novice, logic, point of view:
Got a Smoker : Either a car on fire, or brake/wheel problem causing the wheels to smoke from friction.
Boys, it's going to be cold cuts for us: Something bad happened and there is going to be no steak for supper, like a derailment, etc.
Let em rip: Let the cars fly loose over the hump?
Grumpy locomotive: Either an engineer that is in abad mood, or a locomotive that is not running well.
Shacken em loose: Uncoupling some cars by bumping them and then pulling forward to shake loose the couplers.
Dumb car on 1A: No name car on siding 1A ?
grayfox1119 wrote: As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. I wish "someone" could draw a picture on this thread, of the switch in question, to show how a train coming from the direction that would cause a derailment if the switch is not set correctly, ( manual throw switch lets say ), will spring the switch to the correct position, via the weight of the locomotive crossing over the "pivot" point. Personally, I am finding this thread much more interesting then I thought from my original intent.1st: I am amased to see how many of you guys actually worked on RR's2nd: I never heard of a "Spring" switch, and therefore how this little devil works!3rd: I certainly never heard of a "kick" switch, and I am trying to understand how it differs in operation from a "Spring" switch.4th: I am trying to understand how the weight of the locomotive ( or car if being pushed ) over a "pivot" point, releases some sort of spring loaded mechanism ( like a set mouse trap?) that causes the turnout/switch to set to the opposite rails, AND THEN RESET? WOW, What resets the spring to be loaded? Is it just the weight of the loco and the cars that KEEP the switch set in the correct direction until the last car passes over the "pivot" point, and then the switch "reloads" itself by switching back to it's original position? Man, that is some spring!!! I wouldn't want to get my foot caught in it's jaws!!!!Any draftsmen, or halfway good illustrators out there who can draw and depict these various switches and the points of action?
As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. I wish "someone" could draw a picture on this thread, of the switch in question, to show how a train coming from the direction that would cause a derailment if the switch is not set correctly, ( manual throw switch lets say ), will spring the switch to the correct position, via the weight of the locomotive crossing over the "pivot" point.
Personally, I am finding this thread much more interesting then I thought from my original intent.
1st: I am amased to see how many of you guys actually worked on RR's
2nd: I never heard of a "Spring" switch, and therefore how this little devil works!
3rd: I certainly never heard of a "kick" switch, and I am trying to understand how it differs in operation from a "Spring" switch.
4th: I am trying to understand how the weight of the locomotive ( or car if being pushed ) over a "pivot" point, releases some sort of spring loaded mechanism ( like a set mouse trap?) that causes the turnout/switch to set to the opposite rails, AND THEN RESET? WOW, What resets the spring to be loaded? Is it just the weight of the loco and the cars that KEEP the switch set in the correct direction until the last car passes over the "pivot" point, and then the switch "reloads" itself by switching back to it's original position? Man, that is some spring!!! I wouldn't want to get my foot caught in it's jaws!!!!
Any draftsmen, or halfway good illustrators out there who can draw and depict these various switches and the points of action?
Dick,There is lots of older railroad terms that has never made print because some maybe use only by a given road or just locally.
To remain way off topic, somebody commented earlier that planes can't fly below 50 below 0, so nothing goes in or out of Antarctica in the winter. That is generally true, but see the attached article for the major exception.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pfsf/is_200104/ai_1695921557.
A DeHavilland Twin Otter landed at the South Pole at a temperature of 90 below 0 on an emergency evacuation mission - the only one ever done under those conditions. Having flown on Twin Otters many times, it is easy for me to believe that it would have been the plane chosen for this type of "impossible" mission.
David
grayfox1119 wrote:As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. I wish "someone" could draw a picture on this thread, of the switch in question, to show how a train coming from the direction that would cause a derailment if the switch is not set correctly, ( manual throw switch lets say ), will spring the switch to the correct position, via the weight of the locomotive crossing over the "pivot" point. Personally, I am finding this thread much more interesting then I thought from my original intent.1st: I am amased to see how many of you guys actually worked on RR's2nd: I never heard of a "Spring" switch, and therefore how this little devil works!3rd: I certainly never heard of a "kick" switch, and I am trying to understand how it differs in operation from a "Spring" switch.4th: I am trying to understand how the weight of the locomotive ( or car if being pushed ) over a "pivot" point, releases some sort of spring loaded mechanism ( like a set mouse trap?) that causes the turnout/switch to set to the opposite rails, AND THEN RESET? WOW, What resets the spring to be loaded? Is it just the weight of the loco and the cars that KEEP the switch set in the correct direction until the last car passes over the "pivot" point, and then the switch "reloads" itself by switching back to it's original position? Man, that is some spring!!! I wouldn't want to get my foot caught in it's jaws!!!!Any draftsmen, or halfway good illustrators out there who can draw and depict these various switches and the points of action?
I can't draw here but will try a simple explaination of a spring switch. To make things simple here, picture a main line with a siding. A train is backed into this siding waiting for another train to pass. The switch is set for the main line. The train has gone by and the track is now clear for the train on the siding to leave. There is a spring that holds the switch points aligned for the main. This spring can be over come by two means usually. First is by manually or remotely throwing the switch to align with the siding-- thats how the train got there. Now it's ready to leave. Remember spring tension is holding the switch points in position for the main line. Now the train on the siding starts to move, it comes to the switch, as it enters, the wheel flanges force the switch points outwards overcoming the spring tension. Once the last axle of the train passes, the spring pushes the points back to the main line position again. Simple! Ken
Teditor wrote: Has "anyone" actually seen the movie, I think this is what this started out as?Is it on video? DVD? I think I must get a copy so I can join in what is now becoming an irrelevant issue.Teditor
Has "anyone" actually seen the movie, I think this is what this started out as?
Is it on video? DVD? I think I must get a copy so I can join in what is now becoming an irrelevant issue.
Teditor
Yes its available on tape or as a DVD..I got my Emperor Of The North DVD at Best Buys for $9.95.That btw is less then I paid for the tape 4 years ago.
BRAKIE wrote: 130MM,Still the OLDER switch could be ran through..DO NOT CONFUSE running through a CLOSED switch with normal SPRING SWITCH operation like the one in that ad.The older switches was never meant to be ran through when closed but,it did happen and usually without damage.Again I WILL stand pat on my 9 1/2 years EXPERIENCE as a brakeman since I seen it done several times over those 9 1/2 years..
130MM,Still the OLDER switch could be ran through..DO NOT CONFUSE running through a CLOSED switch with normal SPRING SWITCH operation like the one in that ad.The older switches was never meant to be ran through when closed but,it did happen and usually without damage.
Again I WILL stand pat on my 9 1/2 years EXPERIENCE as a brakeman since I seen it done several times over those 9 1/2 years..
Well, I'll see your 9-1/2 years, and raise you my 27-1/2 years working in track departments....
I'm not following you on what you mean by an "older" switch. What type of stand does it have?
I don't think I'm confusing anything. Stands are either manual, automatic (also called semi-automatic), or spring. The first can't be run-through; the second and third can. The difference between the second and third is where the switch points end up after the move.
In my experience (which includes repairing many a run-through switch, and derailments at what were called "previously run-through switches") no matter how old the switch; if it is not designed to be run through, something will break or bend when you run through it. It may happen inside the switch stand where it can't be seen, but it is damaged nonetheless.
When you saw a train run through a closed, older switch that was set against your move what did the switch look like after the fact? Did you try to operate it? Sometimes the damage is inside the stand, and can't be seen.
Back when I was working on the BN the Yardley Yard (Spokane Wa) had quite a few "run through" switches. We called them rubber switches. They were designed to be run through in trailing movements and the points would flop over and stay in position. They only worked like this in trailing movements. In a facing point movement were the switch was lined in the opposite direction of where you wanted to go, the switch would have to be manualy lined.
In a spring switch (generally at the end of a siding) the wheels on a trailing point movement will move the points over w/o any deleterious effect on the movement BUT THE POINTS MOVE BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POSITION AS SOON AS THE WHEELS PASS OVER THEM. I don't recall if there were rules against stopping on a spring switch but if there weren't there should be since if there's enough slack action for a car to reverse through the points it's going to go onto the other track (at least one truck is).
I believe all of the "rubber switches" at Yardley have now been replace with standard switch throws and if you trail through one of them that's incorrectly lined you WILL damage the switch, usually by bending the throw bar, so that the points will not line up correctly and the next facing point movement will split the switch. This, unfortunately, is not theoretical knowledge but is based on personal experience (incluing puting Milw 156, the Centenial painted SD-40, on the ground at Avery Id).
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
grayfox1119 wrote: BRAKIE, thank you for your reply as well as others. But I am still a little confused. If the switch is aligned to the direction of the cars or train, no problem, but if the switch is thrown to another route, siding, whatever, how can the oncoming train go through the switch without derailing? What an I missing here? Excuse my ignorance please Brakie. I am refering to a train/locomotive heading OPPOSITE the direction of the points. Obviously if the switch is thrown to siding facing lets say East, and the train is headed east, it will not derail no matter which way the switch is thrown, it just might go down the wrong track. But coming the opposite way, someone is in deep doo doo.
BRAKIE, thank you for your reply as well as others. But I am still a little confused. If the switch is aligned to the direction of the cars or train, no problem, but if the switch is thrown to another route, siding, whatever, how can the oncoming train go through the switch without derailing? What an I missing here? Excuse my ignorance please Brakie. I am refering to a train/locomotive heading OPPOSITE the direction of the points. Obviously if the switch is thrown to siding facing lets say East, and the train is headed east, it will not derail no matter which way the switch is thrown, it just might go down the wrong track. But coming the opposite way, someone is in deep doo doo.
GF,Here's a link to switch stand manufacturer that might give you some insight:
http://www.nationaltrackwork.com/1003ars.htm
This is a type of run-through stand, i.e. if the train comes from the opposite way, as you said, the points flop over, and everyone is happy. But if the switch is not equipped with one of these type of stands bad things happen. Note the line in the promo that says: It eliminates damage caused by running through a switch stand and the necessity of tying up a yard track when a stand had been run through and put out of service. In other words buy one of our stands, and we'll solve all your run-through switch problems.
They also sell the mechanisms for a spring switch:
http://www.nationaltrackwork.com/mechswitchman.htm
In summary there are three types of hand throw switch stands:
1. manual - the route has to be thrown by hand.
2. automatic (also known as run-through) - trailing through the points with the points set against the move will cause the points to flop over to the other side (also known as the other "Shoulder"), and stay there. As was said above the weight of the train is sufficient to push the points over. The route for a facing point move must be set by hand.
3. spring - Same conditions as the automatic, except that after the wheels push the point over, the spring will pull them back to their original position. In this case a manual stand is used and the mechanical switchman is substituted for the normal operating rod. For a facing point move to the track which the spring is holding closed, the stand can be thrown by hand for that move.
Hope this helps.
Dick,The weight of the car/locomotive at the switch pivot point begin the throw just like it does on a spring switch.You see a 70 ton car is a lot of mass weight even when empty and when this car is being push through a closed switch something is going to give and the weakest resistance in its path is the switch points.
Dick,The weight of the car or locomotive on the wheels will throw the points with a loud noise.
This is one of the reasons railroads use derails on a industrial track.Simply put the derail will derail the car(s) before they can become run aways on the main line or stop short of the switch and end up fouling the switch.
I can count on one hand how many times we was reported for kicking a switch-once..The Superintendent told us to be more careful.
grayfox1119 wrote: Well, I learned something from this thread that I started quite innocently.......I had never heard of a "spring" switch or a "kick" switch. I did some searching on the web, but could not find anything useful on a "kick" switch. There was some good info on the "spring" switch, but I want to see a diagram, and a better explanation of exactly how they operate. So, with that said, I am NOT an expert on turnouts of ANY kind. All I know is that you must throw a switch by whatever means, to the direction of which you want the train to traverse, and if the points are set wrong for an oncoming train, it is going to be very bad for some people. I never worked on the RR, I am a retired EE. So if you kind gentlemen would stop fighting for a minute and please educate the masses, we would greatly appreciate your kind effort. In the spirit of the New Year, with good will and peace to all men......please educate us.
Well, I learned something from this thread that I started quite innocently.......I had never heard of a "spring" switch or a "kick" switch. I did some searching on the web, but could not find anything useful on a "kick" switch. There was some good info on the "spring" switch, but I want to see a diagram, and a better explanation of exactly how they operate.
So, with that said, I am NOT an expert on turnouts of ANY kind. All I know is that you must throw a switch by whatever means, to the direction of which you want the train to traverse, and if the points are set wrong for an oncoming train, it is going to be very bad for some people. I never worked on the RR, I am a retired EE. So if you kind gentlemen would stop fighting for a minute and please educate the masses, we would greatly appreciate your kind effort. In the spirit of the New Year, with good will and peace to all men......please educate us.
Dick,Simply put kicking a switch is a old railroad term that means you ran through a closed switch..No big deal since it still happens today I am sure in large terminals where there are long cuts of cars being shoved without protection down a yard track..Its like "wabashing" except you shoved cars through a closed switch instead of leaving the last car or two fouling the switch.
If this were the case, wouldn't it imply some sort of train order dispatching system was in use? In that case the express's clearance would be contingent upon meeting #19 at the passing track. My point is that the express would be required to approach the passing siding on the main and be prepared to stop prior to crossing the switch fouling point if #19 wasn't waiting for him "in the hole".
Absolutely. Remember Shack got his orders before they departed. Also remember that it was very very foggy and you couldn't see much, so the Express would be unable to see #19 in the siding until it was right on it. And of course it would be pretty boring to watch an "Express" crawl by to ensure the line was clear
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
Gentlemen, please! If you want 'movies' that are factual then you are actually looking for stuff on the History Channel :) Just about any other channel is all Fiction. :P
All joking aside, it is a major buzzkill to be watching what you thought was good TV/Movie only to have the whole thing ruined when reality takes a backseat to just about everything else. Being an Ex-Navy-Nuke, anything with Nuclear Power/ Radiation makes my skin crawl. I haven't seen a tv show / movie that got it correct yet! (well, that wasn't on the History Channel )
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"