Slightly off the main subject of "model" trains, but nevertheless...."trains". I received the DVD " Emperor of the North" and got to watch it last night. I was very puzzled by one scene. #19 was racing against time to reach a passing siding in order not to have a head on crash with a fast mail train headed straight for them on the same single mainline. #19 made the siding under full speed, and the caboose just cleared the mainline when the mail train roared past nearly clipping the Caboose. So the big question is....who threw the switch so that #19 could enter the passing siding under full speed, and certainly there was "0" time for anyone to return the switch to mainline position!!!! So was this more of Hollywood's "photographic license" in thinking that most people are too ignorant to realize that a turnout needs to be thrown to enter a passing siding? And, must then be reset to normal for mainline trains to run straight through???
Did anyone see the movie " 8 Below"? Everyone was rushing to leave the South Pole because Winter was setting in, and the last flight out was ready to go, but did you notice that the Calendar said "January"????? This was the SOUTH pole not the NORTH pole, which meant that SUMMER was beginning in the South Pole.
Are movie producers all "D" students in school, or, do they feel that "we" are all "D" students and don't know any better.??
The reason I alway hear is about movies is "We are trying to tell a fast paced story, not indulge in facts. This is not educational."
There is often a glossy finish on a sketchy story in many movies.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
First you can "kick" a switch..That means if a switch is thrown you can "kick" the switch by running through it and the switch WILL throw its self to the route the wheels has "kicked" it to..Of course this practice is frown upon by the management but,happens from time to time..
As far as the switch being thrown? Good question unless a dispatcher or tower operator had lined the switch.
Now,we have 2 trains speeding toward each other and whistling and NEITHER engineer applies the BRAKES!! Ridiculous! Both engineers would have applied the brakes as soon as they heard the other locomotives whistle..Another question why didn't 19's engineer sound warning whistles? That is a series of short fast whistle blasts which alerts other train crews or people on the track of a immediate danger..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cacole wrote:This is just another example of how Hollywood tries to make the impossible seem believable to those who don't know any different.
You mean like movies where flight attendants fly jumbo jets ("Airport 75", "Turbulence"), supposedly UP trains pulled by D&RGW K-28 2-8-2's get robbed by Butch and Sundance or astronauts exposed to severe radiation become superheroes ("The Fantastic Four")?
Or were you referring to movies where giant tarantulas terrorize desert towns ("The Giant Tarantula"), nuclear enhanced ants threaten LA ("Them") or women grow to immense size ("Attack of the 50 Foot Woman")?
Then again, there was "Pearl Harbor", which actually went beyond Pearl Harbor and two fighter pilots suddenly got their multi-engine rating in time to join the Doolittle raid on Tokyo. That was a real howler.
Need we mention that incredibly funny gaffe in "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" where Indiana Jones flies across the Pacific in a Short Solent ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Short_Solent_3_-_G-AKNU_Sydney_-_Aquila_Airways_-_Funchal.jpg ), a postwar aircraft, instead of a Boeing 314 ( http://www.chicagocentennialofflight.org/images/images_aircraft/Boeing314_Boeing.jpg )?
Andre
grayfox1119 wrote:LOU, I see your point, however, it still bothers me big time when they make such a mistake on purpose just for effect. All the other monster movies and other science fiction movies, etc, we all know are fiction, so let their "creativity" run wild, but other films really get me going when I see obvious dumb things that are so easy to correct and film properly without losing the action.
So. . . You don't think it would've changed the action any if the race to the switch was between a train and a brakeman standing off to one side rather than two trains on the same track? Maybe if the story was changed to focus on the brakeman character somehow, and his actions stopped the second train from colliding into a "nuns, puppies, and orphans" excursion, and he became a hero, and . . . . Seems like a lot of work just to make it realistic enough to please 100-odd RR fans who might watch the movie over the next 50 years.
I *guess* they could've made it a race to a diamond - thereby eliminating the switch unreality - but no doubt somebody would've found a problem with that, too, like maybe a semaphore was set to upper quadrant when it should've been lower quadrant.
Reminds me of the USENET post I saw when Star Wars Episode I came out. Some poor bugger wrote about four screens of text dissecting the fighting scenes shown (in the trailer, no less), describing the various oriental fighting techniques he saw, how this one was developed from that one, thus making the type of parry anachronistic, how it didn't make sense to use a two-handed sword with a technique that was developed for battle-axes, stuff like that. There was an atypically long period where no one wrote anything in reply, broken by: "Dude, you do know it's a movie, right?"
To that I add: Everything you see on the screen is done "just for effect".
KL
BTW: Maybe it was a spring switch?
Maybe it was a model train and they knew no one would be hurt, so they took the risk of destroying a perfectly good model for the sake of entertainment.
Teditor
The switch was thrown in advance since #19 had to be routed into the siding to clear for the express. This was likely performed by an earlier crew, or a dedicated on site switchman who was in charge of the passing siding. I doubt automatic, dispatcher controlled, switches were an option here.
The switches were also "spring" switches. I'm not going to go into what a spring switch is here. If you are more than a beginner into trains and model railroads you should know about them...otherwise try a Google search on them, I bet there is some information out there.
However, the open switch that 19 goes into had to be “kicked”, as stated above, to the right position by the express. Not too uncommon for the steam era.
In fact this movie is surprisingly pretty good for accuracy, at least the train parts of the movie.
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
grayfox1119 wrote:Slightly off the main subject of "model" trains, but nevertheless...."trains". I received the DVD " Emperor of the North" and got to watch it last night. I was very puzzled by one scene. #19 was racing against time to reach a passing siding in order not to have a head on crash with a fast mail train headed straight for them on the same single mainline. #19 made the siding under full speed, and the caboose just cleared the mainline when the mail train roared past nearly clipping the Caboose. So the big question is....who threw the switch so that #19 could enter the passing siding under full speed, and certainly there was "0" time for anyone to return the switch to mainline position!!!! So was this more of Hollywood's "photographic license" in thinking that most people are too ignorant to realize that a turnout needs to be thrown to enter a passing siding? And, must then be reset to normal for mainline trains to run straight through???Did anyone see the movie " 8 Below"? Everyone was rushing to leave the South Pole because Winter was setting in, and the last flight out was ready to go, but did you notice that the Calendar said "January"????? This was the SOUTH pole not the NORTH pole, which meant that SUMMER was beginning in the South Pole.Are movie producers all "D" students in school, or, do they feel that "we" are all "D" students and don't know any better.??
Having a friend of mine who has worked at the South Pole twice for one year duty tours, NOTHING comes or goes once it reaches 50 BELOW ZERO< which is quite common, it often gets down to MINUS 100 to MINUS 160 (farenheit)
Aircraft can't fly in or out after it gets below 50 below zero, hydruallic systems, oils,e tc don't want to work at temperatures below 50 below if exposed for more than short periods of time.
Things like video cameras only work about 5 minutes in the outdoors because batteries freeze up and stop working.
I rember Charlie showing us a video when the outdoor temperature at his work station was MINUS 158 below ZERO!!!!
Outdoor activities are limited to about 15 minutes even with heavy parkas etc.
And another interesting fact it DOES NOT SNOW at the south pole, anything that looks like snow is actuqally tiny ice crystals picked up by the wind.
Next time next summer you're out mowing your lawn and its 90 plus degrees, just think of the nice cool climate at the South Ploe! LOL!
8 below would be considered a heat wave at the South Pole.
They have HUGE food supplies, fuel supplies, etc , I belive Charlie said at leats 3 years supplies.
My friend Charlie is a professional scientist-astronomer.
So once again Hollywood just does as it pleases, with no knowledge of reality.
The K4Kid
andrechapelon wrote: cacole wrote:This is just another example of how Hollywood tries to make the impossible seem believable to those who don't know any different. You mean like movies where flight attendants fly jumbo jets ("Airport 75", "Turbulence"), supposedly UP trains pulled by D&RGW K-28 2-8-2's get robbed by Butch and Sundance or astronauts exposed to severe radiation become superheroes ("The Fantastic Four")?Or were you referring to movies where giant tarantulas terrorize desert towns ("The Giant Tarantula"), nuclear enhanced ants threaten LA ("Them") or women grow to immense size ("Attack of the 50 Foot Woman")?Then again, there was "Pearl Harbor", which actually went beyond Pearl Harbor and two fighter pilots suddenly got their multi-engine rating in time to join the Doolittle raid on Tokyo. That was a real howler.Need we mention that incredibly funny gaffe in "Raiders Of The Lost Ark" where Indiana Jones flies across the Pacific in a Short Solent ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Short_Solent_3_-_G-AKNU_Sydney_-_Aquila_Airways_-_Funchal.jpg ), a postwar aircraft, instead of a Boeing 314 ( http://www.chicagocentennialofflight.org/images/images_aircraft/Boeing314_Boeing.jpg )?Andre
I'll have to ask a flying friend of mine about his opinion of "Pearl Harbor" movie next time I see him.
His name is Jimmy Doolittle the third.
I'm sure it will be laced with some very colorful words!
I've spoken personally with his cousin Jonna about the movie, she wasn't impressed at all, and thought even less of their selecton of Mr Baldwin to play the part of their Grandfather.
Jonna wrote a very good bookabout her Grandfather, Jimmy Doolittle titled "Jimmy Doolittle, Master of the Calculated Risk."
I met her and Jimmy Doolittle the third at the Oshkosh EAA airshow.
They are both very down to earth, very friendly , very nice people!
About Butch and Sundance robbing a train pulled by a 2-8-8-2??? Don't think so. BUT, according to western author Louis Lamour they both retired and died of old age , living out their golden years back in the western USA, and DID NOT DIE in South America or Brazil or Mexico.(Once again Hollywood took free reign to rewrite history) Sooo maybe they got bored of rocking chairs and playing checkers and got together and took out a 2-8-8-2 just for the fun of it! LOL!
HEY BUTCH, YOU SURE YOU USED ENOUGH DYNAMITE???
YEAH SUNDANCE, THEY DON'T MAKE THESE MAIL CARS OUT OF WOOD ANYMORE, BUT STEEL AND ALUMINUM. AND THAT ENGINE SUNDANCE, WE'LL NEED A BAZOOKA OR A TANK NEXT TIME TO STOP IT, BULLETS JUST BOUNCE OFF OF IT, AIN'T LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS ANYMORE! AND THESE HORSES JUST CAN'T KEEP UP WITH THE TRAIN, DOGGONE IT BUTCH, THIS THING MUST HAVE BEEN GOING ALMOST 70 OR 80 MILES PER HOUR, WE'RE GETTING TOO OLD FOR THIS!
WELL SUNDANCE TELL THAT IDIOT MOVIE PRODUCER-DIRECTOR OVER THERE THAT WILL YOU????
WE AIN'T DOING ANOTHER TAKE ON THIS SO HE BETTER OF GOT HIS FILM FOOTAGE THIS TIME!
Read Louis LaMour's book ( autobiography) "Education of a Wandering Man", he tells about Butch and Sundance in it.
A GREAT READ!!!
TheK4Kid
working on the Pennsy
BRAKIE wrote: First you can "kick" a switch..That means if a switch is thrown you can "kick" the switch by running through it and the switch WILL throw its self to the route the wheels has "kicked" it to..Of course this practice is frown upon by the management but,happens from time to time..(stuff snipped)
(stuff snipped)
I must amend your statement. Only switches equipped with the proper switch stands can be "kicked". They are known as, oddly enough, "run through stands". In a run through stand when a train passes through the stand with the points set against the train, the points will flop over to the other stock rail and stay there. The spring switch mentioned elsewhere above will flop over to the other stock rail, and then the spring will pull the points back to the original stock rail after the wheel has passed.
We paint the run through stands orange to indicate that the stand is run through. They are used only on slow speed track. Spring switches are marked with a sign saying "S/S". They are very much in the minority. Most switch stands are not run through, and cannot be kicked. If you do run through them you'll bend the operating rod or switch rods, break the gears or spindle of the stand, damage the switch point itself, or any combination of the three. Management really frowns on that.
DAW
Apparently, Hollywood's not the only one who gets it wrong. I said nothing about 2-8-8-2's, but D&RGW K-28's, which are narrow gauge 2-8-2's. The UP is standard gauge.
BRAKIE wrote:DAW,I know about spring switches but,any standard switch can be kicked..Its a violent throw that rattles the whole switch and makes a LOUD THURRRAMMRUPPTT! as the switch throws. The reason I know this when I was a student brakeman on the PRR I was near one that was ran though one one night and it scared me so bad I though a car had derailed and gave the engineer a wipe out signal..Now imagine my embarrassment when it wasn't my train but another switch crew that ran that switch!! Of course the conductor explain to me what happen and he said that happens a lot during the night.There was NO damage to the switch because we used it several times that night after that incident.
I'm, sorry to be bullheaded, but that is not correct. NO standard switch can be run through without damaging something. There must be a run-through stand on the switch. You most likely heard a run-through stand in action. They do make quite a noise as the points slap over. I assume you were a student in a yard? That's where they are used.
Can a train run-through a switch with a regular switch stand, and keep going: absolutely. But the next facing point move over that switch will most likely derail.
DAW,Let's agree to disgree..I knew what happen that night and several times after that.I will stand pat on those experiences and I can assure you those WAS NOT spring switches.
I started as a yard brakeman and later bid on the road pool extra board.
Southwest Chief wrote: The switch was thrown in advance since #19 had to be routed into the siding to clear for the express. This was likely performed by an earlier crew, or a dedicated on site switchman who was in charge of the passing siding. I doubt automatic, dispatcher controlled, switches were an option here.
If this were the case, wouldn't it imply some sort of train order dispatching system was in use? In that case the express's clearance would be contingent upon meeting #19 at the passing track. My point is that the express would be required to approach the passing siding on the main and be prepared to stop prior to crossing the switch fouling point if #19 wasn't waiting for him "in the hole".
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Well, I learned something from this thread that I started quite innocently.......I had never heard of a "spring" switch or a "kick" switch. I did some searching on the web, but could not find anything useful on a "kick" switch. There was some good info on the "spring" switch, but I want to see a diagram, and a better explanation of exactly how they operate.
So, with that said, I am NOT an expert on turnouts of ANY kind. All I know is that you must throw a switch by whatever means, to the direction of which you want the train to traverse, and if the points are set wrong for an oncoming train, it is going to be very bad for some people. I never worked on the RR, I am a retired EE. So if you kind gentlemen would stop fighting for a minute and please educate the masses, we would greatly appreciate your kind effort. In the spirit of the New Year, with good will and peace to all men......please educate us.
Gentlemen, please! If you want 'movies' that are factual then you are actually looking for stuff on the History Channel :) Just about any other channel is all Fiction. :P
All joking aside, it is a major buzzkill to be watching what you thought was good TV/Movie only to have the whole thing ruined when reality takes a backseat to just about everything else. Being an Ex-Navy-Nuke, anything with Nuclear Power/ Radiation makes my skin crawl. I haven't seen a tv show / movie that got it correct yet! (well, that wasn't on the History Channel )
Dave Loman
My site: The Rusty Spike
"It's a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in.... hey, someone's making a penny!"
Absolutely. Remember Shack got his orders before they departed. Also remember that it was very very foggy and you couldn't see much, so the Express would be unable to see #19 in the siding until it was right on it. And of course it would be pretty boring to watch an "Express" crawl by to ensure the line was clear
grayfox1119 wrote: Well, I learned something from this thread that I started quite innocently.......I had never heard of a "spring" switch or a "kick" switch. I did some searching on the web, but could not find anything useful on a "kick" switch. There was some good info on the "spring" switch, but I want to see a diagram, and a better explanation of exactly how they operate. So, with that said, I am NOT an expert on turnouts of ANY kind. All I know is that you must throw a switch by whatever means, to the direction of which you want the train to traverse, and if the points are set wrong for an oncoming train, it is going to be very bad for some people. I never worked on the RR, I am a retired EE. So if you kind gentlemen would stop fighting for a minute and please educate the masses, we would greatly appreciate your kind effort. In the spirit of the New Year, with good will and peace to all men......please educate us.
Dick,Simply put kicking a switch is a old railroad term that means you ran through a closed switch..No big deal since it still happens today I am sure in large terminals where there are long cuts of cars being shoved without protection down a yard track..Its like "wabashing" except you shoved cars through a closed switch instead of leaving the last car or two fouling the switch.
BRAKIE, thank you for your reply as well as others. But I am still a little confused. If the switch is aligned to the direction of the cars or train, no problem, but if the switch is thrown to another route, siding, whatever, how can the oncoming train go through the switch without derailing? What an I missing here? Excuse my ignorance please Brakie. I am refering to a train/locomotive heading OPPOSITE the direction of the points. Obviously if the switch is thrown to siding facing lets say East, and the train is headed east, it will not derail no matter which way the switch is thrown, it just might go down the wrong track. But coming the opposite way, someone is in deep doo doo.
Dick,The weight of the car or locomotive on the wheels will throw the points with a loud noise.
This is one of the reasons railroads use derails on a industrial track.Simply put the derail will derail the car(s) before they can become run aways on the main line or stop short of the switch and end up fouling the switch.
I can count on one hand how many times we was reported for kicking a switch-once..The Superintendent told us to be more careful.
Dick,The weight of the car/locomotive at the switch pivot point begin the throw just like it does on a spring switch.You see a 70 ton car is a lot of mass weight even when empty and when this car is being push through a closed switch something is going to give and the weakest resistance in its path is the switch points.
grayfox1119 wrote: BRAKIE, thank you for your reply as well as others. But I am still a little confused. If the switch is aligned to the direction of the cars or train, no problem, but if the switch is thrown to another route, siding, whatever, how can the oncoming train go through the switch without derailing? What an I missing here? Excuse my ignorance please Brakie. I am refering to a train/locomotive heading OPPOSITE the direction of the points. Obviously if the switch is thrown to siding facing lets say East, and the train is headed east, it will not derail no matter which way the switch is thrown, it just might go down the wrong track. But coming the opposite way, someone is in deep doo doo.
GF,Here's a link to switch stand manufacturer that might give you some insight:
http://www.nationaltrackwork.com/1003ars.htm
This is a type of run-through stand, i.e. if the train comes from the opposite way, as you said, the points flop over, and everyone is happy. But if the switch is not equipped with one of these type of stands bad things happen. Note the line in the promo that says: It eliminates damage caused by running through a switch stand and the necessity of tying up a yard track when a stand had been run through and put out of service. In other words buy one of our stands, and we'll solve all your run-through switch problems.
They also sell the mechanisms for a spring switch:
http://www.nationaltrackwork.com/mechswitchman.htm
In summary there are three types of hand throw switch stands:
1. manual - the route has to be thrown by hand.
2. automatic (also known as run-through) - trailing through the points with the points set against the move will cause the points to flop over to the other side (also known as the other "Shoulder"), and stay there. As was said above the weight of the train is sufficient to push the points over. The route for a facing point move must be set by hand.
3. spring - Same conditions as the automatic, except that after the wheels push the point over, the spring will pull them back to their original position. In this case a manual stand is used and the mechanical switchman is substituted for the normal operating rod. For a facing point move to the track which the spring is holding closed, the stand can be thrown by hand for that move.
Hope this helps.