I'm currently trying to figure out the footprint for a room built in my old dirty garage just for my next model railroad.
Thinking I'll build an 8x8ft box (interior dimensions) for my layout (with insulation, etc.) and one 8x8ft box for my drumset.
So I'm looking for track plans about that size for inspiration. Yes, it's sort of an oddball size.
One thing I've come to realize is that for shelf style layouts, you can get larger radius curves, but then you also lose all of the straight sections of mainline, which is frustrating.
Does anyone have any plan recommendations? (I have 101 track plans as well as Iian Rice's small track plan book, but they're buried in boxes until we move into the house next week)
this neat little N&W layout comes to mind... its 8x12, but it doesnt occupy all that space so it might still work out for your needs...
http://appalachian_railroad.tripod.com/tp_pondcreek.html
SBCA wrote:One thing I've come to realize is that for shelf style layouts, you can get larger radius curves, but then you also lose all of the straight sections of mainline, which is frustrating.
Why couldn't you make an 8x16 space with room shared by both the trains and the drums? That seems like it would serve both purposes better. The trains could make a U around the drum. But over all both would have more space. Less claustrophobic too.
yeah, I can't figure out that "you also lose all of the straight sections of mainline" comment either. With an 8x8 foot space you can have a shelf layout with 22" radius curves and 16 feet of straight mainline, or with 32" radius curves and 12 feet of straight mainline, or a 4x4 table layout consisting of a 360-degree circle of 22" radius track!
And yes, a shelf layout at maybe 4' height with space for drums in the middle makes a lot more sense than an 8x8 space for a 4x4 foot layout.
Jetrock wrote:yeah, I can't figure out that "you also lose all of the straight sections of mainline" comment either. With an 8x8 foot space you can have a shelf layout with 22" radius curves and 16 feet of straight mainline, or with 32" radius curves and 12 feet of straight mainline, or a 4x4 table layout consisting of a 360-degree circle of 22" radius track! And yes, a shelf layout at maybe 4' height with space for drums in the middle makes a lot more sense than an 8x8 space for a 4x4 foot layout.
What you say about 22" radius is very true, as well as the 32" radius. (see how when you go to 32, you're straight sections decreases - that's what I'm talking about)
But, you could also have a shelf layout with 40" radius if you want to run really long equipment, but with way less straight section of track. Everyone is always talking about how great around-the-walls is because you can get a bigger radius. That's true, you can get a bigger radius, but you have to give up straight sections of track to get the bigger radius.
I'm partially tempted to put my drums in the middle. But then I wouldn't exactly want to whip out an airbrush to weather some track and have the paint mist onto my cherry wood Yamaha Recording customs! No sirry bob!
I think there may need to be separation of "church & state" in my hobbies so neither one of them causes negative effects on the other.
SBCA wrote:I wouldn't exactly want to whip out an airbrush to weather some track and have the paint mist onto my cherry wood Yamaha Recording customs!
Track weathering, etc. would most likely be done before much of the rest of the layout is done.
That's just one particular example - point is, some of layout work is "dirty". Musical instruments and dirt don't get along too well.
An alternative option would be to have "dominoes" so that I could do all the "dirty work" away from where the layout is actually setup.
A 4' BOARD limits curves to 22 radius regardless of length:
48" accomodates a 44"diameter (center/center) curve, which is 22" radius. Most commercialized plans are designed for the beginner level, where 'simpler' is better.
A 3/4" sheet of plywood can be supported by just 4 legs. More modern versions use foam with 1/4" plywood tops suppported by framing (See Dec. MR).
A GREAT MAJORITY of O Gauge and HO gauge railroads occupied basements until housing with forced-air heating elimniated the need for coal fired furnaces and basements.
A 2' corner requires a 22" radious Max. A 3' corner section will accomodate up to a 32" r, and 4' corners up to 44"r. - wonderful for 80' passenger cars and 'Big Boys', but hardly suitable for an 8X8 Garrage space. 44" radii form an 8'd. CIRCLE - no straights.
For ANY 4' wide endeavor, one must must stay @ 22" radius / 44" c/c d. loops - with it's trade off's - OR consider 'N gauge where 22" is the equivalent of 44". Now there an 8X8 makes sense - especialy with access from the center via a swing in or 'lift up' gate.
WHAT would I do? Cut one 4X8 into 4 secctions for semi-triangular 2' corners and connect them with 2' wide straights. I might also get an electronic drum set with earphones.
Problem is, you're assuming that all else is equal. With a shelf layout, you can actually make use of an 8x8 foot space. With an island layout, you can only build a 4x4 foot layout--or at most 4x6 if you want access from three sides.
Your issue where tighter curves mean more straight track and vice versa applies to any layout configuration--it's not an inherent property of shelf layouts vs. island layouts. Note that you'll have more straight track using 18" curves on a 4x6 loop than using 22" curves. But let me ask you, what is the purpose of these straight sections of track? Trains tend to look really good going around curves, especially when viewed from the inside of the curve. A lot of track planners tend to try to make their layouts as curvy as possible, in order to maximize the potential for photogenic modeling.
Also keep in mind that you can still put straight track in the corners of a broad-curved around-the-walls layout--that's where you put your industry sidings, interchanges, locomotive servicing facilities, etcetera, that don't parallel the mainline! A 40" radius curve means that you can put a switch at the end which leads to a potentially 40" long spur into that corner (or shorter, if you wish) to make the corner into a working part of the layout. Or you can just scenic it and have a cool scenery corner.
PUT THE DRUMS IN THE MIDDLE, they will be fine. If you're really concerned about it, have a tarp to throw over the drums if you're doing anything particularly messy. It will also allow you to have an 8x16 foot around-the-walls layout. And, quite frankly, physically separating your hobbies means that you'll just end up ignoring one more than the other. I'm in the same boat (I am also a musician and model railroader) and I found that if I went in my old layout-garage space to work on some noises I'd often end up fiddling around with the trains when I was done, and vice versa. I still need to make up my layout room the way I want it but I hope to move some of my musical gear in there so I can do the same thing in my current abode.
Have you considered HO traction or maybe On30 traction?
Maybe HOn3 or On30 narrow guage?
Maybe a switching layout, 18" curves and #4 switches? Maybe GE 44 or 70 tonners or EMD SW7for your biggest engines. Or maybe 0-6-0T and 0-4-0T's?
Also note that it may not be pretty, and will create a good deal of switching, but turntable/s can replace reversing loops, curves, wyes, junctions, crossings, and ladders where space is super critical. Transferr tables could also be used to replace ladders. Railroad car elevators could be used for interchange (and may connecting multiple levels). A vertical lift bridge could lessen the pains of a duck under (and also be used to connect levels. Think out side the box!
If you will want something that will keep you busy for years, consider a O, On3, On30, and On2 track on a part trolley, part steam line with working trolley wires. Throw in a turntable! Don't forget a "grand union" with a steam RR bypass and freight spurs.
Have fun
I am doing shelf, and not much bigger space than you, and naw, you wont have great long straights. With some desgning I found I could triple level with trains running between all.
My previous layouts I had minimum 36" radius, but my shelf layouts are a big compromise, 24" minimum, maybe down to 22", but my SOuth Shore portion is minimum 26" for my Little Joe electric. For switching I could go down to 18" or even 15" in industrial areas with the correct locos working it that can take that radius.
Guys, I appreciate the flow of ideas.
Jetrock, very true regarding the straight & curved sections. I could go all-out with some huge curves, then I'd nearly have a circle, but with all the sidings, etc. along the walls.
My big flaw with that is that I want a passenger station. I know, it's a tiny layout for a passenger station, but I just want one where I can stop a train in front of it, etc. That particular scene might have viewblocks to prevent it from being seen from other viewpoints. And the passenger station needs a fair length of track - say, 4ft so I could have one engine and 3 passenger cars sitting in front of it. 4ft +22" radius x 2 + 2inches clearance at the wall = 8ft. So to have 4ft of straight track, I have to have 22" curves, which aren't compatible with the long cars.
Or, I could have the passenger station on one of the "siding" sort of tracks, but make it look like a mainline - which will be ok for photographs, etc.
As mentioned, yes, I'm trying to think out-of-the-box here. Thinking about possibly having 3 or 4 linked-dioramas, rather than one "layout" in the standard sense. Like maybe the passenger area, a switching area, and a "just scenery" area, divided with 3 view blocks.
Stay tuned guys, I'm going to figure this out!
I'm pretty sure HO is where my heart is. I know it's really an N-scale space I'm dealing with, but I want HO, and since it's a hobby purely done for "I-wanna" reasons, then darnit, I'm going to have HO in my small space.
SBCA wrote: My big flaw with that is that I want a passenger station. I know, it's a tiny layout for a passenger station, but I just want one where I can stop a train in front of it, etc. That particular scene might have viewblocks to prevent it from being seen from other viewpoints. And the passenger station needs a fair length of track - say, 4ft so I could have one engine and 3 passenger cars sitting in front of it. 4ft +22" radius x 2 + 2inches clearance at the wall = 8ft. So to have 4ft of straight track, I have to have 22" curves, which aren't compatible with the long cars.
Perhaps you could get away with 18" by carefully selecting your equipment and hiding the curves. Maybe you could place the station between two overpasses which would function as view blocks to hide the curves.
SBCA wrote: Or, I could have the passenger station on one of the "siding" sort of tracks, but make it look like a mainline - which will be ok for photographs, etc.I'm pretty sure HO is where my heart is. I know it's really an N-scale space I'm dealing with, but I want HO, and since it's a hobby purely done for "I-wanna" reasons, then darnit, I'm going to have HO in my small space.
One) Modeling "commuter" trains would eliminate the need for head end cars saving space. It could also justify frequent service during the rush hours. If "push - pull" operation is used, it might save problems in the staging areas.
Two) Modeling self propelled cars such a RDC cars (1960's) or gas electric cars (1930's) would save space by eliminating the need for engines. You might consider interurban cars under trolley wire or electric cars under catenary.
Three) In general, going back in time (say 1910 instead of 1960) and going to a more limited photo type (branch line rather then heavy duty mainline) will save space. For example, using 60' Harriman cars would save space over 80' cars. You might consider 50' Palace cars or 34' Overton cars. Being on a branch could justify a two car train (combine and coach) rather then a large train. That in turn would allow you to use say a "modern" 4-4-0 for the passenger train. A 2-6-0 with 36' cars could be used for freight service.
SBCA: You're still thinking in terms of an 8x8 layout, a big circle with, most likely nothing in the middle.
STOP IT.
STOP IT NOW
YOU ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY DO NOT WANT TO BUILD AN 8x8 TABLE LAYOUT. You won't be able to reach the center, and the space just goes to waste. If you build it in the corner, you won't even be able to reach half of the track.
Okay, so you want a passenger station. That's fine. Why does the track in front of this passenger station have to be straight? This doesn't necessarily happen in the real world (where I live, there is a sharp curve just past the passenger station) so why should it have to be so on your layout?
Let's think 8x16 foot shelf layout again for a moment. 36-44" curves on either ends--lovely sweeping things, viewed from the inside your trains will look great, and you can still have spurs off of them if you like. Plus EIGHT feet on either side of the layout of razor-straight track if that's what you want, with enough room for a big ol' union station model. Drum set in the middle, with a clear space of about 5-6 feet deep and around 8-10 feet wide. That's plenty of room--heck, I have played shows on stages smaller than that with a four-piece band!
One other thing: It isn't a tiny layout space. 8x16 feet, or even 8x8 feet used wisely, is plenty of room for plenty of layout, if you plan it correctly. Too many model railroaders are convinced that nothing short of an entire basement is suitable for a model railroad--NONSENSE!
One of the things I see a lot in this kind of a situation is people dividing the space, Solomon-like, into equal sections, side by side. In fact, it's often a much better idea to overlap the various uses of a room, especially a garage.
I did a quick tweak for CARRfan of a design I did for someone else, so it's not exactly right, but it's something that may be food for thought.
I changed the overall size to 17'X17'. There's a little space at the bottom of the sketch for clearance for an overhead roll-up garage door. One lobe of the layout extends in an enclosed bay over the corner of the hood of the parked car. Minimum radius is 24", but there's room for a broader cosmetic curve in the upper left-hand corner.
The key feature is that the length of the room is shared by the long side of the layout, the long side fo the drum room, and the parked car.
The original design had a door into the house in the upper right-hand corner and the garage was a little bigger than 17'X17'. So this won't exactly fit your needs, but I hope it will encourage you to look for ways to overlap some elements to get outside the box.
Regards,
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
SBCA wrote: Thinking I'll build an 8x8ft box (interior dimensions) for my layout (with insulation, etc.) and one 8x8ft box for my drumset.
Jetrock, you'll be happy to know I'm not considering building a solid 8x8ft table, but rather an 8x8ft around the walls layout in an 8ft box.
Unfortunately, our garage is very old. House built in 40's - just remodeled several aspects of it, but the garage will have to wait a couple years. In the 40's, garages were apparently not built to the same standards as the house. The garage is not suitable for my drums, so I have to build some sort of box for them. (Hoople - they're yamaha recording customs, cherry wood finish, 6 piece, Zildjian cym's).
My drums take up a space about 5' x 7', so for a 2' wide shelf, my box should be 9ft wide. Then I'd be tip-toeing around the drums to operate the model railroad, which would be akward.
Byron - cool graphics you created!
Still working on ideas...
SBCA wrote: Byron - cool graphics you created!
Turns out you're not the only model railroader with drums. The graphics are borrowed from one of my client's drum manufacturer's site and were used when I worked on his design a while back.
FWIW, he made the decision to reconfigure his kit a bit for a better fit in the layout room. Something to think about.
cuyama wrote: SBCA wrote: Byron - cool graphics you created!FWIW, he made the decision to reconfigure his kit a bit for a better fit in the layout room. Something to think about.
Byron, that is EXACTLY why I want to keep them separate. Sort of a separation of "church and state". I love these two hobbies, but do not want one interfering with the other!
"oops, can't spray a glue mist on ballast tonight because my drums are too close", "oops, can't position that floor tom just right because then my sticks might wack the roundhouse....", you get the idea.
I haven't ruled it out completely, but the idea of separate areas just sits better with me.
To take it a step further, I'm sitting here in my office for my business - it's about 12ft x 20ft. But there is no way I want my hobby interfering with my work (aside from what can be done neatly & cleanly on the computer).
In addition to the drums themselves, I've got cases, some extra equipment, etc.
If I was going with purely a shelf switching layout, it would be simpler, but as soon as the layout wraps around me & my drums, it starts to seem not as elegent.
My old garage sounds like your garage: my garage was built in 1944, with an unfinished interior, and total space inside the garage was 8 feet wide by 18 feet deep. My new house is even older (built in 1907.)
Why not double your modeling space by buying a 10-mil plastic tarp that you can throw over the drums when you're doing something particularly messy? Or you can take advantage of one of the other benefits of building a shelf layout in sections, namely being able to build the sections in one place and then carrying them to the shelf itself where the sections will live? There are other steps that can be taken to ensure that your hobbies coexist peacefully:
Here is my yard in my old place. The layout itself sits at 48" off the ground, with an upper shelf/valence mounted at 66" off the ground, and a 3" thick valence board. The ceiling is about 7' high, so I have 18" of clearance on the upper shelf. In this shot you can see I have a pair of floor toms stored above the layout, as well as a spare drum head. Beneath the layout is modular shelving 36" high, storing a portable rackmount unit (holding digital delay unit, compressor/limiter, and a dual effects processor) and the legs for a lighting truss to hold our lights. Out of view are boxes of lights, costumes, props and other band equipment (okay, we're a prop and costume band, it helps distract from the fact that we don't practice very often and aren't particularly talented.) While your situation is obviously different, it should certainly be possible to design your layout around your drum kit, rather than the other way aorund. Think three-dimensionally: you can have plenty of storage and practice space above and below the layout.
I suppose I'm a little less particular about the safety of my own musical gear. I can't imagine many model railroading activities that would match up to the level of mayhem of one of my live shows...
SBCA wrote: If I was going with purely a shelf switching layout, it would be simpler, but as soon as the layout wraps around me & my drums, it starts to seem not as elegent.
There's elegant, there's ideal, there's optimum. All of these ideas are enemies of the actual construction of fun and satisfying layouts.
IMHO, for what it's worth, I'm just saying ... it seems to me you keep coming up with objections to reasonably good suggestions. The sketch I drew (admittedly very quickly) has separate rooms for layout and drum kit. It's a principle that has worked for others. I'm sure you could make something fit, even if the sizes must be juggled. My point was just that making two identically-sized square rooms is probably not the approach that yields the longest straight layout segment to model the Santa Barbara station, if that's your goal.
Good luck,
Byron and Jetrock, I totally appreciate the brainstorming you're taking part in with me. I appreciate it!
Byron, I'm not trying to come up with objections, rather just make sure I'm taking everything into consideration.
I busted myself while rehearsing with some guys a week ago - caught myself mid-song figuring out if a 4" wide piece of wood could tuck right in front of my drums - sort of like hovering over the front of the bass drum - so that I would just have one section of very narrow shelf - maybe 2 tracks wide, that my drums face right into.
This way I could have 4" wide shelf, plus 5ft wide drumset, then another foot or two of shelf layout behind me.
This would mean the main place where the layout interferes with my drums would be behind me. So by removing the stool (us drummers call them thrones for some reason), I'd have instant isle access.
I assure you I'm not just throwing around numbers, etc., I've been CAD'ing this stuff up (in Solidworks) as I come up with these various ideas.
You know, I'd love to see MR's annual MRP mags focus more on small layouts. I think most people are in the same boat as me - trying to cram stuff into a small space (rather than all the gargantuan sized plans that are more academic than practical).