I'd like to address (in a civil manner) the issue that keeps coming up regarding the "rivet counter." I think there's a misperception out there.
Rivet counters and nit-pickers are not necessarily the same thing.
Rivet counters place fidelity to prototype as their highest goal. They enjoy ensuring that their boxcars have the correct brake rigging for the era they model, or adding road-number specific details to their locomotives. That's a noble cause in my book. And generally, rivet counters are interested in helping others who model the same prototypes achieve a higher level of realism. They don't even have to model a specific prototype; they just want to ensure that their railroad and its equipment look as correct as possible. They're highly knowledgeable folks.
Nit-pickers, on the other hand, use their knowledge to denigrate others. They're the ones who say "That's ridiculous, the so-and-so railroad never had one of those!" or "That's a terrible paint job!" Nit-pickers are less interested in helping you than they are in showing you how much they know. Nit-pickers are the ones who make themselves feel important by making others, especially newbies, feel inferior.
We should rail against the nit-picker, but accept and respect the rivet counter. Once the rivet counter begins to force his/her ideas on others as the only way, then he/she becomes the nit-picker. But we shouldn't assume from the get-go that the rivet counter is bad.
Maybe it’s just semantics, but I’m proud to count rivets and I try not to pick nits!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Hey!! I have actually had to count rivets as a reference for placement of detail parts. Anybody got a problem with that????
Seriously though, I will say what I always have. I strive for absolute prototoype accuracy on my models, and don't like to settle for anything less. As far as other peoples models go, as long as you are enjoying what you are doing, I appreciate your work, no matter the level of detail or prototypical accuracy. If you wanted to paint your Genesis Big Boy pink with purple polka dots and run Amtrak decorated heavyweight passenger cars behind it, that is your business. As long as you are in the hobby and are enjoying yourself, that is what is important.
Right on Dave!!!! "NUFF SAID"
" The Harven"
So lemme get this straight . Rivet counters set the standards and nit pickers lower them. Where does constructive criticism come in? And then theres the problems with rivet pickers and nit counters.
Actually I agree with your statement whole heartedly I just like to have a little fun with these things from time to time. Personally this issue has really big implications for me and as aresult I no longer belong to clubs, church,or other organizations where i have to deal with either extreme.Oh Boy!!
Anyways thats why I like these forums where I can read others opinions and sort out the philosophies that have meaning for me and disregard the others. I realize that healthy debate is a good thing but it seems that so few people can debate without getting mad and start hitting and shooting so on these forums I'm at least out of range.
csmith9474 wrote:As long as you are in the hobby and are enjoying yourself, that is what is important.
As long as you are in the hobby and are enjoying yourself, that is what is important.
Very well said! It is my impression that we learn from both and may actually be motivated by the nit-pickers to further study and research It is almost competitive to prove the picker of nits wrong, if only by one example. So hail to both and a pox on those who want to rain on our parades for their particular needs.
What I do find annoying is the poster who answers a question with, "it's your railroad, do what you want" While I support the encouragement to enjoy the hobby, the one asking the question is not getting any help with regard to the question that was asked. The Forum lost the "Stars" but we still have some who seem to need to run up their post count. If you have some contructive dialog, the newbee and seasoned modeler can both benefit from your additions.
Enjoy the hobby and ignore the hobbits!
Will
WOverdurff wrote: Very well said! It is my impression that we learn from both and may actually be motivated by the nit-pickers to further study and research It is almost competitive to prove the picker of nits wrong, if only by one example. So hail to both and a pox on those who want to rain on our parades for their particular needs. What I do find annoying is the poster who answers a question with, "it's your railroad, do what you want" While I support the encouragement to enjoy the hobby, the one asking the question is not getting any help with regard to the question that was asked. The Forum lost the "Stars" but we still have some who seem to need to run up their post count. If you have some contructive dialog, the newbee and seasoned modeler can both benefit from your additions. Enjoy the hobby and ignore the hobbits! Will
Exactly who are you referring to in regards to someone trying to bolster their post count?
reklein wrote: So lemme get this straight . Rivet counters set the standards and nit pickers lower them. Where does constructive criticism come in?
So lemme get this straight . Rivet counters set the standards and nit pickers lower them. Where does constructive criticism come in?
Although reklein's initial thought is made in jest, there's a lot of truth in it. I've been here since the original beginnings of this forum and I repeatedly see that when folks with years of hobby experience and knowledge note an obvious fault with something or perhaps offer sage advice on improving a model or layout that the uninitiated here may be fawning over, they are immediately labeled as a rivet counter or as taking the hobby far too seriously.
Well, in point of fact, most of those who have been in the hobby for years consider themselves craftsman and take doing a high quality job very seriously. While their advice may sometimes appear a bit abrupt, from their viewpoint they would like to see others demonstrate a similar amount of effort to their modeling. When unfairly labeled and ridiculed for such views or for offering well deserved criticism, they will often just drop from the forum and move on to more specialized and serious ones. Ever notice how truly few topnotch modelers are here, relative to the large total membership?
CNJ831
Ah yes the dear old nit pickers that always have nits to pick.When they come to pick the nits on my equipment I simply hand them a box..Inside this box they will find one magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers to pick the nits with..After all who want nits on their equipment?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 wrote:I've been here since the original beginnings of this forum...
CNJ831 wrote:I repeatedly see that when folks with years of hobby experience and knowledge note an obvious fault with something or perhaps offer sage advice on improving a model or layout that the uninitiated here may be fawning over, they are immediately labeled as a rivet counter or as taking the hobby far too seriously.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I ran into what I would call a nit picker just the other day on another forum. I put all my effort into a PA-1 that I painted with the SP Daylight Scheme. I put some pictures on the site of my work so far and i get a response that kind'a got under my skin.
The guy replies to the post and right away starts letting me have it about the order I painted the darn thing...You did the roof first before the rest of the shell?...If it were me, I would have done the body shell first and than the roof..it would have..yada, yada, yada....who cares in what order I painted the model..it came out pretty slick when I finished and isn't that all that matters?...some things people need to keep to themselves...chuck
I break it down this way. A rivet counter is someone who wants a high degree of realism on their railroad. A nitpicker is someone who expects me to be a rivet counter on my railroad. If someone wants to model a high degree of accuracy on their equipment, that is certainly a worthwhile goal. Just don't expect everyone else to be that concerned with it. In my own case, I am a freelancer so I already begin with a lot of flexibility as to what will go on my layout. Even with that, I will fudge a little and use rolling stock with paint schemes that were adopted a few years after my time frame. As long as the inaccuracies don't jump out at you, I'm OK with them. For example, I have several NYC jade green box cars which came along around 1960, but for me they work because their style is correct for my transition era layout. And don't even talk to me about build dates. Even with my reading glasses on I have trouble making out what they are so why should I care. On the other hand putting an Amtrak Superliner behind a Mikado would look wrong even to most casual of railfans. But if someone wanted to do that on their layout, I would be the last one to criticize them for it.
We all make our own choices regarding the degree of accuracy we strive for and we should all respect the choices others make.
I agree wholeheartedly, Dave. It's fortunate that we have such a tremendous resource of talent to draw upon and brains to pick. I have tremendous respect for anyone who strives for absolute accuracy. Rivet counting is an art, and having such examples raises the bar for all of us. It's up to us as individuals to decide what level of accuracy we're comfortable with, based upon considerations like time, budget, personal skill level, and level of devotion to the hobby.
Constructive criticism of someone's work can be very helpful, if there's a detail they missed or a technique they don't know, but the operative term is constructive. It has to be presented with tact. I've seen too many examples recently (and not on this forum, btw) of modellers who think their years of experience gives them the right to be terse, obnoxious, and even insulting when someone is uninformed, or dares to question their demeanor. As you stated, the nit-picker is an insecure individual who uses whatever knowledge they possess as a weapon to beat others down and elevate themselves, and you find them in every aspect of life.
In a hobby that is by all accounts shrinking, we can't afford to drive new arrivals away by perpetuating the impression that model railroading is a fraternity for only a select group of elites. I remember getting a lot of attitude at my LHS when I was young and new in the hobby, and it drove me away to other activities for long periods of time because I thought I'd never be up to snuff. Some people don't tell you that there's a learning curve involved.
Nelson
P.S. Though I'd laugh my a$$ off at a pink Big Boy with purple polka-dots.
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Labeling people, in general, is limiting and is rarely a good idea. I think it is far more useful to categorize behaviour.
If one posts creations on the forum for ostensible feedback, then one should warn those who determine that their opinion of the piece is less than positive to withhold their feedback. Then, we could only ever have positive feedback and we would all be in ignorant bliss.
For those of us who invite feedback regardless of what it might be, we are sure to learn something. We may only learn that there are surly curmudgeons out there who have not learned to sugar coat suggestions for improvement, but we may also learn that what we had thought was "perfect" is in error.
It's a public forum, folks. When you post here, the public sees and the public is free to respond. If you don't want their response, see my second paragraph above.
Dave Vollmer wrote:I'd like to address (in a civil manner) the issue that keeps coming up regarding the "rivet counter." I think there's a misperception out there. Rivet counters and nit-pickers are not necessarily the same thing. Rivet counters place fidelity to prototype as their highest goal. They enjoy ensuring that their boxcars have the correct brake rigging for the era they model, or adding road-number specific details to their locomotives. That's a noble cause in my book. And generally, rivet counters are interested in helping others who model the same prototypes achieve a higher level of realism. They don't even have to model a specific prototype; they just want to ensure that their railroad and its equipment look as correct as possible. They're highly knowledgeable folks. Nit-pickers, on the other hand, use their knowledge to denigrate others. They're the ones who say "That's ridiculous, the so-and-so railroad never had one of those!" or "That's a terrible paint job!" Nit-pickers are less interested in helping you than they are in showing you how much they know. Nit-pickers are the ones who make themselves feel important by making others, especially newbies, feel inferior. We should rail against the nit-picker, but accept and respect the rivet counter. Once the rivet counter begins to force his/her ideas on others as the only way, then he/she becomes the nit-picker. But we shouldn't assume from the get-go that the rivet counter is bad. Maybe it’s just semantics, but I’m proud to count rivets and I try not to pick nits!
Every model railroader who has been around long enough to assemble a few kits and run a locomotive or two has developed some expertise in some area(s). Depending on the individual's personality, this can lead to two semi-related problems:
IMHO, constructive criticism starts by complimenting the well done part of the work. That puts the recipient into a frame of mind that will accept politely worded suggestions as ideas to be considered, not as an attack on personal integrity. Positivity is always more acceptable than negativity, and is far more likely to achieve the desired results. (This also works in raising children.)
What are MY areas of expertise? If you're really curious, look up my posts on various threads. I'm not one to tootle my flute unless the entire band is playing.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
IRONROOSTER wrote:...What seems to be the term for that type of modeling is protomodeling or protoXX modeling (where XX is your scale ratio - 87, 64, 48, etc.).
Expert = EX (has been) + (s)pert (a drip under pressure) making an Expert a has been drip under pressure!
Model railroading is what I do to relax from stressful situations. I enjoy the hobby. I enjoy the friendships. I have known a few "rivet counters" "nit pickers" and "experts" and don't let it bother me. On my railroad we have fun. I subscribe to Allen McClellands "good enough" philosophy of model railroading.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Interesting topic, Dave, but I have to question your choice of font.
Mike
Modelling the UK in 00, and New England - MEC, B&M, D&H and Guilford - in H0
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Forgive the slight off-topic turn...
Oddly enough, there's a similar phenomenon in my other (currently dormant) hobby, Civil War reenacting. The "hardcores" are often called "stitch counters," referring to the fidelity of their uniforms In that hobby, though, the issue of forcing higher standards on people becomes a big issue because generally standards apply across a unit. I was in a regiment in Ohio that nearly fell apart because it was being pulled in two different directions. Some just wanted to have fun drinking and shooting blanks while others wanted to suffer in the cold with no food or shelter like the real soldiers. I was squarely in between. Of course, since then I had the opportunity to serve with the real Army in a real war and question why one would want to "rough it" as a hobby!
Like in model railroading, my goal was to set my own standard high by emulating various Union infantry soldier personas (US Regulars, Pennsylvania Volunteers, Ohio Militia, etc.) to the highest fidelity I could. But, like in model railroading, I tried to avoid heaping unsolicited advice on mainstream reenactors. I will give help when asked, but otherwise it isn't my business.
rghammill wrote:For me, "rivet counters" or if you have to have a label, I prefer "prototypical modeler," set a standard worth aspiring to, are usually great sources of information and are doing exactly what they should - having fun modeling. Randy
I don't agree that rivet counters set a standard worth aspiring to. It's worth aspiring to only for those to whom it is important to build models that are accurate down to the fine detail. To many modelers, and I would guess a decided majority, it is far more important to create a good overall effect. If I can accomplish that, I really don't care if I have the wrong horn, my KD couplers are out of scale, or the paint scheme or build date is wrong for my time frame. I don't intend to be critical of those to whom the little things are important but that doesn't me everyone should share their concern.
I'll be frank--I've been modeling since the 1960's, and the first time I ever heard the term "Rivet Counter" was when I joined this forum. I know that back in the 1970's, there was quite a tussle going on in the RPO section of Model Railroader about Nit-Pickers, so when I came across the term Rivet Counter, in the forum, I just assumed it was a new name for the same old thing.
However, Dave, I see your point about the difference in the terms. I don't know that I'm a real Rivet Counter (I know for SURE I'm not a Nit-Picker!), however I do like my steamers to look as authentic as possible--for one thing, it brings back fond memories of my childhood. I don't know that I'd go so far as to wring my hands over a headlight placing, for instance ("Oh, that class didn't move their headlight to the center until June of 1943"), but I certainly can see trying for as much authenticity as I can get.
Anyway, thanks for clearing up the terms--at least I know that "Nit Picker" is still around as a moniker, and that it hasn't been replaced by "Rivet Counter." (Or if it has, perhaps it shouldn't!)
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Best I can tell the difference is a rivet counter has tact and a nit-picker doesn't. Then again, I suppose if you don't want an honest answer to a question like 'how does my model look?', then don't ask.
jecorbett wrote: rghammill wrote:For me, "rivet counters" or if you have to have a label, I prefer "prototypical modeler," set a standard worth aspiring to, are usually great sources of information and are doing exactly what they should - having fun modeling. Randy I don't agree that rivet counters set a standard worth aspiring to. It's worth aspiring to only for those to whom it is important to build models that are accurate down to the fine detail. To many modelers, and I would guess a decided majority, it is far more important to create a good overall effect. If I can accomplish that, I really don't care if I have the wrong horn, my KD couplers are out of scale, or the paint scheme or build date is wrong for my time frame. I don't intend to be critical of those to whom the little things are important but that doesn't me everyone should share their concern.
I would second jecorbett's point. Hobbies, like life, involve tradeoffs. We all operate within resource constraints in terms of time and money. If I spend most my resources perfecting the details of a handful of locomotives and structures, then I'm likely to end up with a really small layout. Is that tradeoff worth it? Maybe for some, but certainly not for all (or even most).
If we are going to insist on setting standards and comparing people's efforts, the real metric should be modeling productivity: the best modeler is the one who can get the most amount of modeling output (measured both qualitatively and quantitatively) for each given unit of input (in terms of time and money). Just being able to spend more time and money doesn't make you a better model railroader.
I think this may be at the root of why people are sensitive to criticism about their modeling efforts. People can't simply increase their supplies of time and money to match the "higher" standards set by rivet counters. In the same way that no one in the real world likes acknowledging that they don't have the money to do something, no one on this site likes being reminded that the best they can do given their resource constraints just isn't up to someone else's "standards."
My point here really is that there can and should be a place for the amateur modeler in this hobby, the type of modeler who can't spend 20 hours a week and/or $10,000 a year on model railroading. These people may not grace the cover of Model Railroader Magazine but they are the majority of the subscribers. The hobby needs them just as much as the Tony Koester's of the world to survive and prosper.