Wheels spark in a turn out and other problems?

[cudaken]

 I just sat up a branch line off the B line. First the good news, my track laying skills are much better and no derails. But now the problem and it is two fold. Running a doubled headed Athearn BB train. They have the old steel wheels. Also the 2 turn outs have been on the bench for sometime but just used as track, not a working turn out.

 Problem's

1 Peaco turn out, now with the turn out going off the B-line there are sparks flying off the rail on the out side. If the turn out is not thrown there is no sparks.

2 Atlas #8 turn out. Turn out section is where the train comes back on the B-Line Think it is called the toe. When my engines pass over the turn out they loss power for a slit second. Sometimes the second engine shuts down and stops the trains. As with the Peaco, it has been in placed for some time, when used as straight there is no problem.

 I will try cleaning the wheels, but I dont think that is the problem.

               Cuda Ken  

[Anonymous]

Are you in DC or DCC? These sound like DCC problems, but could apply in DC as well.

Your first problem is not dirty wheels, but sounds like a momentary short circuit. Try moving the engines very slowly, perhaps by just pushing them a bit, to the point where the sparks occur. You command station or circuit breaker should trip if you can make the short circuit last.

If so, the back of a wheel (or wheels) are probably contacting the open point. Assuming you have other Peco turnouts without this problem, perhaps something got bent while in use on your bench. Check both closure rails (the part that moves), and the small contacts below the points that help conduct electricity when the points are closed (and should NOT contact the bottom of the adjacent outer rail when they're open).

If the turnout seems fine, and this is the only engine shorting out, you could paint the backs of the wheels. It will wear off eventually, of course, but a couple of coats would probably last for quite a while.

Another option is to isolate the turnout and direct power only to the closed rail. I have about a hundred Pecos, and have done this with all the medium and large ones, using the relays on my Tortoise switch machines. I had shorts with a couple of engines at the frog, where the two rails come together with only a tiny gap, and the wheels would momentarily touch both.

Your second problem, with the Atlas might be dirty wheels and/or track, but sounds more like the engines are not picking up power from all wheels, or part of the turnout is electrically dead, or one part is a bit lower than the rest, so the wheels don't make good contact. I'm not familiar with the Atlas line, though, so there could be other things to look for.

Good luck, and post your results here.

[cudaken]

 First Pondini, thanks for the answer. Seems you where the only one that had sort of a clue. I think I understand what you told me. But I have a good idea now what to look for. I all so found that the Proto 2000 wheel freight will do the same thing on the turn out. Ran the B line with the lights off after I posted this and they all sparked.

 I am DC and thottle is a MRC 9500, meters don't real react to the sparks but they happen fast. I will roll a Proto wheel freight car though the Peaco and see what happens.

 If you have a PIC you could post that would be great as well. I hope I can save the Peaco Turn out, sort of a odd ball being a Y. LHS has # 8 but that is it.

 

   Thanks again Cuda Ken

[MisterBeasley]

I'm casting my vote for the thin insulated gap at the frog.  I've got some Pecos, and some of them show the same problem.  The spot where the two rails come together at the frog is very tight, and with wide metal wheels sometimes the gap is bridged and there's a short.  (Old Athearn BB's make this more likely - I think those wheels were wider than today's models.)

One solution is a bit of clear fingernail polish right at the gap.  This will coat a very small part of the rail and make the insulated gap a bit larger.  Only do this for a very small part of the rail, like maybe a 16th of an inch, just enoug to keep one wheel from bridging the gap.  Also, make sure it's completely dry before you run a train over it.

Maybe I'll vote for the frog on Election Day, too.  Better than any of the candidates I've seen.

[Train Master]

Maybe I'll vote for the frog on Election Day, too.  Better than any of the candidates I've seen.

frog for president! thats rich!

[GearDrivenSteam]

Spray a puddle of WD40 in the turnout and see if you can spark a fire.  Ok, I'm kiddin.

[BRAKIE]

Ken,While all of the above is excellent advice there is one overlooked problem..

The old Athearn cast iron wheels is well known to spark..This *could* be the problem and the best fix to end the case of the "sparkies" is to change out the wheels to NWSL.

[SteamFreak]

Ken,

Yes, the older Blue Box Athearns with the Jet (black) motors have wheels with a wider flange, so substituting newer BB wheels, NWSL, or simply insulating the frogs as detailed above could solve the problem. Check that they're in gauge first, though.

Nelson

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

 First Pondini, thanks for the answer. Seems you where the only one that had sort of a clue. I think I understand what you told me. But I have a good idea now what to look for. I all so found that the Proto 2000 wheel freight will do the same thing on the turn out. Ran the B line with the lights off after I posted this and they all sparked.

 I am DC and thottle is a MRC 9500, meters don't real react to the sparks but they happen fast. I will roll a Proto wheel freight car though the Peaco and see what happens.

 If you have a PIC you could post that would be great as well. I hope I can save the Peaco Turn out, sort of a odd ball being a Y. LHS has # 8 but that is it.

 

   Thanks again Cuda Ken

Ken-

Have a look at this thread.  There are some pics of where the wheel can bridge the gap in the frog, and suggestions on remedies.

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/938758/ShowPost.aspx

[Sperandeo]

Nelson mentioned the first thing I'd check – are the shorting/sparking wheelsets in gauge?

Athearn locomotives have wheels mounted on stub axles pushed into a plastic sleeve that carries the axle gear. It's not unusual for a few of these to be delivered out of gauge, or for those that started in gauge to work themselves in operation to be too narrow or too wide.

Check them with an NMRA gauge, then remove any that aren't correct and push or pull the wheels while twisting them in the plastic sleeve until the gauge is correct. Then put a TINY drop of super glue where the metal axles meet the plastic sleeve, being careful to keep the glue away from the bronze axle bearings.

So long,

Andy

[bogp40]

Nelson mentioned the first thing I'd check – are the shorting/sparking wheelsets in gauge? Athearn locomotives have wheels mounted on stub axles pushed into a plastic sleeve that carries the axle gear. It's not unusual for a few of these to be delivered out of gauge, or for those that started in gauge to work themselves in operation to be too narrow or too wide. Check them with an NMRA gauge, then remove any that aren't correct and push or pull the wheels while twisting them in the plastic sleeve until the gauge is correct. Then put a TINY drop of super glue where the metal axles meet the plastic sleeve, being careful to keep the glue away from the bronze axle bearings. So long, Andy

Another problem encountered w/ Athearn BB is when Kadee #5 are mounted you now have created an elecrical path from the frame(lower motor brush) out to the coupler. If the engines are run elephant style there's no problem, but have the direction reversed on one unit and you can experience some intermitant shorting as the frame polarity of the rear backwards facing unit will pick up from the opposite rail. I used to body mount a #5 in it's box and cut the lug off, but a simpler solution is to use a delrin shank #30 series coupler.

Many times if the frog rails aren't the culprit, voltage changes across the turnout can cause a slight jerk or momentary pause that can accent the coupler movement.

[cudaken]

Nail polish fixed the probem. Ran the turn out with Proto 2000 E-6 and had the same sparking. Used the nail polish and all is fine now.
Funny part is I don't know when I felt more like a idiot.

1 Buy the nail polish.
2 Explaing to the casher what it was for.
3 Fighting with the wife over it, seems she had ran out!

Only sparks are in the brain again, Cuda Ken

[Don Gibson]

Problem with using muliple kinds: Peco vs. Atlas. Designs are different. and problem solutions are different.

Peco and older Atlas turnouts have Plastic frogs with imbedded metal point rails.  When metal wheels touch both rails they short and spark.

PROBLEM: Turnout was designed before metal wheels became popular

SOLUTIONS: Plastic wheelsi (poor); insulatig frog frog with nail polish (temporary); shim-ing the guard rail to re-align (better); replacing turnout with a better one (best). This assumes wheel gage meets NMRA.

"Atlas #8" are a newly designed code 83 with an insulated (dead) frog. They don't have the afomentioned problem. (Dead frogs have no electricity to short). Are you sure this is the turnout you have?

I suspect what you have is not an Atlas #8, however 'stalling' can be cured by powering any frog with switch machine contacts, or using all-wheels-powered engines (Athearn's are), or replacing with  Micro-Engineering or Shinohara made turnouts. I found not all #6 OR#4 prefab turnouts are created equal.

[cudaken]

Don I am 90% sure the Atlas is a number 8. Code is 100 not 83.

Both the Atlas and Peaco are used, I know. But the new Peaco's I have all so show where they are achring as well.

"I suspect what you have is not an Atlas #8, however 'stalling' can be cured by powering any frog with switch machine contacts."

Don would a PIC help to deterime what turn outs I have or just the sizes in inches?

Powering with a frog with a switch machine contacts just went right over my head.

Enines that want to stall are Athearn 12 wheel drives. My Proto 2000 E-6's have no problems

Thank you for your answer as well. If you have PIC you could post as well that would help a lot.

Your backward buying used stuff friend, Cuda Ken

[Anonymous]

Everything said so far is right on.  I've noticed since I went to DCC in 1999 that there tend to be more sparks than with conventional DC which I do not see as a problem if the system doesn't shut down.  Does your system ever shutdown & if so does it reset automatically or do you have to move a loco or something to clear the short?  If the systems is not shuttting down, I do not think you have much to worry about.  The problem mentioned about using Kadee#5s with a metal shank can cause problems.  I use Kadee's #20 series I believe which have a plastic shank. I also rewire all my Athearns with the wheel pickups soldered directly to the decoder eliminating as many points where you ciuld lose electrical connection.  Keep us posted on this situation, please.  Tweet.

[SteamFreak]

 Enines that want to stall are Athearn 12 wheel drives. My Proto 2000 E-6's have no problems

Ken,

Are all of your 12 wheel Athearns the older black motored versions with the wider flanges? As said before, it would be a lot simpler to try new wheelsets in them -- either NWSL or the later BB wheels that have a much narrower flange. If you have any of those in spare parts it would be an easy test.

Nelson