vsmith wrote: Hehehe I loved it, especially the UP logo on the tender, wonder if Uncle Pete will sue them over that???? My wife was getting POd at me for pointing out all the errors in the film... Simple reason WHY they did what they did......$$$$ The entire movie was filmed in England, all the French towns..were English, so were the Estates and the RRs, If you look carefully ..You can CLEARLY see the nameplate on the side of the loco, I wrote it down but lost it, its an English excursion engine, a 4-6-0, its the same engine as Hogswart I believe...and its the same train in both the USA and Paris scenes, like they couldnt have afforded to send a small crew to a small excursion line here in the US to shoot one scene??? Anyone also notice that the Zeppelin was flying WAY too low and in daylight? They would NEVER do that, not even with 100 escorts, a half-blind monkey at an AA battery could knock it out at that altitude. When they flew, they flew at night at at their service ceiling which was near 13,000 feet which was higher than the biplanes could fly, plus in early 1916 they didnt HAVE incendiary bullets....The pilots would struggle to get their planes up the Zeppelins rarified altitudes and either drop small handheld bombs onto them or fire flareguns at them. All bullets would do was puncture the gasbags which the crews were trained at sealing fast. Incendiaries were introduced at the end of 1916. But yeah, it was a fun "turn off your brain" movie...
http://www.burgess57.freeserve.co.uk
Here are a few steam engines that may have participated in the Hogwarts Film. I recalled one photo in particular but he has already removed it to save bandwidth.
The site is one of the best for British Modern and Steam occasionally he shoots video and stills of the older steamers with a touch of history on them.
I confess to not going to the movies much these days because we already have the satellite dish. That pretty much already paid for itself in saved movie expenses.
For me a movie works if you managed to forget your world outside for a short while enjoying the story. It definately does not work if I cannot help but be a nit-picker at either bad acting or terrible props. =)
Cheers.
P.S. I feel old. Some of the movies I went to actually had Intermissions and Opera type manners and expectations.
reklein wrote:I noticed the train thing too, plus about a jillion other things. Oh !,They did leave out shots with contrails in the background, HOWEVER, it was great entertainment nonetheless. Plenty enough action for me to suspend my disbelief for a couple hours.
I haven't seen "Flyboys" yet, but IIRC, it's a WWI movie. To the best of my knowledge, supercharged reciprocating aircraft engines didn't exist until about the 1930's (e.g. B-17, etc.). The maximum ceiling of a WWI aircraft would therefore have been under 15,000 feet. No WWI aircraft could have reached an altitude where contrails would have been formed.
Andre
conagher wrote: Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast. Yeh, everyone wants accuracy. George Cosmatos who directed Tombstone (the one with Kurt Russell & Sam Elliott) hired several noted Tombstone-specific historians to ensure accuracy. But guess what....even they slipped up on a few things. History is nothing more than someone's interpretation of past events. Even eyewitnesses viewing the same thing can come up with totally different stories as evidenced by numerous versions of the events of the Tombstone shootout between the Earps & Clantons. It happens today in courtrooms all over America, too. Even the History Channel has a disclaimer relative to the accuracy of it's content....and they're supposed to be the Numero Uno guys in the field. As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts. Lastly, be thankful someone took the time to make Fly Boys. When's the last time we had the pleasure of a WWI flying flick and especially with such excellent graphics. Perhaps if we allow ourselves to be more entertained by a movie, we'll be less inclined to be critical of it's shortcomings.
Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast.
Yeh, everyone wants accuracy. George Cosmatos who directed Tombstone (the one with Kurt Russell & Sam Elliott) hired several noted Tombstone-specific historians to ensure accuracy. But guess what....even they slipped up on a few things.
History is nothing more than someone's interpretation of past events. Even eyewitnesses viewing the same thing can come up with totally different stories as evidenced by numerous versions of the events of the Tombstone shootout between the Earps & Clantons. It happens today in courtrooms all over America, too.
Even the History Channel has a disclaimer relative to the accuracy of it's content....and they're supposed to be the Numero Uno guys in the field.
As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts.
Lastly, be thankful someone took the time to make Fly Boys. When's the last time we had the pleasure of a WWI flying flick and especially with such excellent graphics.
Perhaps if we allow ourselves to be more entertained by a movie, we'll be less inclined to be critical of it's shortcomings.
Don't get me wrong. I'm grateful someone took the time to make the movie, but wish they would have at least gotten it right with the trains and planes - and the Zepplin flying at night rather than the day!... I also thought about Tombstone (as you noted) earlier today when making an entry on this subject, but declined to mention it. It was historically correct up until about the middle of the movie, then Hollywood took over...
Tracklayer
vsmith wrote: My wife was getting POd at me for pointing out all the errors in the film...
Dont forget about 14000 feet is about the limit for a human to breathe. My limit is about 12,000 before the thin air puts me to sleep. I-70 in Colorado reaches that altitude and it gets hard to gain air to breathe.
Engines lose performance with Height and needs technology not availible in WW1. After the 1930's many engines gained the technology needed to perform at high altitudes. Part of the aircombat problem of WW1 depended heavily on the location of the front line in association to a flyer's home base; taking into account the winds aloft that day. It was best to engage in battle just on your side of the line when possible to avoid capture if shot down or have a advantage when forced to land due to battle damage.
To see Hollywood's influence on the general public, try Oliver Stone's movie, JFK. For many people that became the honest-to-god history of the assassination.
the goat
Tracklayer wrote:I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!. Tracklayer
I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!.
TheK4Kid wrote: Tracklayer wrote: I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!. Tracklayer Well Tony Bills who made the movie is a pilot, and several real pilots were also involved in it's making.Take into account that there isn't always aircraft that exactly match time periods, details, etc, in airworthy of flying condition that they can use.Very, very, very few "real" or even "replica" WW1 aircraft are available or in airworthy shape to be used for movies."Fly Boys" actually "premiered" at the annual Oshkosh Air Venture air show in Wisconsin before a crowd of ALL pilots.Tony explained that he used what was available.Costs of actually building exact replicas can be very expensive, then the airplanes have to be "certified" by the FAA.That all takes time and lots of money, and MASSIVE HEADACHES and HAIR PULLING FRUSTRATION with govt bureaucracy! How do I know?I am now 55 and have been flying since I was 18. Okay, now that I've said my two cents worth, if you'd like to see a "real" and "very authentic" flying movie with a beautiful "Southern Pacific" steam train in it, ( actually still shots) then get a copy of "One Six Right" at www.onesixright.com/If you are a nostalgia buff and just happen to like airplanes also, especially vintage airplanes, this is an incredible movie-documentary!There happens to be a funny "airplane vs. train " story in it!I once flew out west with a friend of mine in his Stearman biplane, and we happened across a beautiful steam-passenger excursion train, dropped down and flew alongside awhile, ended up landing on a small side road, taxied up near the train, the engineers came over and we traded rides!The engineer happened to be a retired American Airlines captain.But like us, he was also a train affaciando! TheK4Kid Working on the Pennsy
Tracklayer wrote: I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!. Tracklayer
Why do I not have you as my #1 neighbor rather than this fine dumb blond chick named Holly that works as an exotic dancer ?!. At least we could talk planes and trains instead of me always having to listen to her tell me how hot and turned on she is all the time... Gezzz.
TL
andrechapelon wrote: reklein wrote:I noticed the train thing too, plus about a jillion other things. Oh !,They did leave out shots with contrails in the background, HOWEVER, it was great entertainment nonetheless. Plenty enough action for me to suspend my disbelief for a couple hours. I haven't seen "Flyboys" yet, but IIRC, it's a WWI movie. To the best of my knowledge, supercharged reciprocating aircraft engines didn't exist until about the 1930's (e.g. B-17, etc.). The maximum ceiling of a WWI aircraft would therefore have been under 15,000 feet. No WWI aircraft could have reached an altitude where contrails would have been formed. Andre
orsonroy wrote:Will Hollywood change? No, not really. They've been screwing up history since movies were invented. They got things wrong in Casablanca, for pete's sake, and that was a CONTEMPORARY movie.
I love that film, but I cringe when Victor Lazslo calls himself "a Czechoslovakian".
Tracklayer wrote: TheK4Kid wrote: Tracklayer wrote: I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!. Tracklayer Well Tony Bills who made the movie is a pilot, and several real pilots were also involved in it's making.Take into account that there isn't always aircraft that exactly match time periods, details, etc, in airworthy of flying condition that they can use.Very, very, very few "real" or even "replica" WW1 aircraft are available or in airworthy shape to be used for movies."Fly Boys" actually "premiered" at the annual Oshkosh Air Venture air show in Wisconsin before a crowd of ALL pilots.Tony explained that he used what was available.Costs of actually building exact replicas can be very expensive, then the airplanes have to be "certified" by the FAA.That all takes time and lots of money, and MASSIVE HEADACHES and HAIR PULLING FRUSTRATION with govt bureaucracy! How do I know?I am now 55 and have been flying since I was 18. Okay, now that I've said my two cents worth, if you'd like to see a "real" and "very authentic" flying movie with a beautiful "Southern Pacific" steam train in it, ( actually still shots) then get a copy of "One Six Right" at www.onesixright.com/If you are a nostalgia buff and just happen to like airplanes also, especially vintage airplanes, this is an incredible movie-documentary!There happens to be a funny "airplane vs. train " story in it!I once flew out west with a friend of mine in his Stearman biplane, and we happened across a beautiful steam-passenger excursion train, dropped down and flew alongside awhile, ended up landing on a small side road, taxied up near the train, the engineers came over and we traded rides!The engineer happened to be a retired American Airlines captain.But like us, he was also a train affaciando! TheK4Kid Working on the Pennsy Why do I not have you as my #1 neighbor rather than this fine dumb blond chick named Holly that works as an exotic dancer ?!. At least we could talk planes and trains instead of me always having to listen to her tell me how hot and turned on she is all the time... Gezzz. TL
TheK4Kid wrote: Tracklayer wrote: TheK4Kid wrote: Tracklayer wrote: I went to see Fly Boys last night. It was a good movie as far as the action and all went, but the train that one of the guys gets on when he's leaving his small mid western US community is the same train he gets off of in France... Also, the tri-wing planes that the Germans were supposedly using didn't come out until late in 1917, not 1916... I wish Hollywood would get their **** together!. Tracklayer Well Tony Bills who made the movie is a pilot, and several real pilots were also involved in it's making.Take into account that there isn't always aircraft that exactly match time periods, details, etc, in airworthy of flying condition that they can use.Very, very, very few "real" or even "replica" WW1 aircraft are available or in airworthy shape to be used for movies."Fly Boys" actually "premiered" at the annual Oshkosh Air Venture air show in Wisconsin before a crowd of ALL pilots.Tony explained that he used what was available.Costs of actually building exact replicas can be very expensive, then the airplanes have to be "certified" by the FAA.That all takes time and lots of money, and MASSIVE HEADACHES and HAIR PULLING FRUSTRATION with govt bureaucracy! How do I know?I am now 55 and have been flying since I was 18. Okay, now that I've said my two cents worth, if you'd like to see a "real" and "very authentic" flying movie with a beautiful "Southern Pacific" steam train in it, ( actually still shots) then get a copy of "One Six Right" at www.onesixright.com/If you are a nostalgia buff and just happen to like airplanes also, especially vintage airplanes, this is an incredible movie-documentary!There happens to be a funny "airplane vs. train " story in it!I once flew out west with a friend of mine in his Stearman biplane, and we happened across a beautiful steam-passenger excursion train, dropped down and flew alongside awhile, ended up landing on a small side road, taxied up near the train, the engineers came over and we traded rides!The engineer happened to be a retired American Airlines captain.But like us, he was also a train affaciando! TheK4Kid Working on the Pennsy Why do I not have you as my #1 neighbor rather than this fine dumb blond chick named Holly that works as an exotic dancer ?!. At least we could talk planes and trains instead of me always having to listen to her tell me how hot and turned on she is all the time... Gezzz. TL Hi Tracklayer!Tell Holly I'm single! LOL!I grew up in a family of pilots who also were railroaders.They all were world war two vets except my Uncle Ab, who was an engineer during the war.His train hauled a lot of war materials.My Dad and a couple Uncles worked on the Pennsy when I as a young kid.They later opened a very successful speedboat business. So airplanes and trains were part of my life.Just have enjoyed both over the years.I own and fly a 1946 Ercoupe.In the movie-documentary One Six Right, one guy talks about an air service that had Ercoupes, Piper Cubs, and Aeroncas you could rent at the time ( late 40's early 50's) for 3 dollars and 50 cents an hour!Then there's a retired airline pilot who talks about him and his buddy "buzzing" the Southern Pacific "Five-ten PM" daily train at Van Nuys in his private plane, and how the engineer got "revenge" one day! If you're interested , grab a copy of the movie! It's GREAT!!! Lots of nostalgic stuff in it!Interviews with some old time pilots, and lots of old but restored airplanes in it., if you like airplanes, you'll like this movie! Go visit the website and just set through the initial slide show with theme music, about 5 minutes long, then click on the links. www.onesixright.com/ This young fellow who made this movie, should do one on trains!He really did a great job on this movie, being it was the first one he ever made.He's only 26 years old!Basically it deals with the disappearing airports around our nation, and why it's important we save what we have left..TheK4KidWorking on the Pennsy
Hey K4Kid. I've got a picture of Holly that I could post here on the forum, but Bergie would delete it and my membership within seconds after I did... She's another Anna Nicole Smith type if you know what I mean.
Thanks for the plane info. I'm strictly into pre WW2 planes and pre 1960s trains myself.
Keep that Pennsy going!.
conagher wrote:Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast. As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts.
As someone with some directing experience, I concur with this. Historical accuracy in this type of movie is important as it lends credibility to the production. However, it all really depends on the budget (as in how many ‘experts’ can be hired), and how much detail (and what detail) is deemed important to the overall impact of the production. One could spend boatloads of money on consultants to get every minute detail correct – all to have it wiz by so fast that most viewers wouldn’t even notice it anyway.
In the case of Flyboys, I doubt that a few train buffs potentially noticing the train would have prompted the director to spend the extra money to obtain a historically accurate train (or at least make the same one appear different) in a movie primarily about WWI airplanes. From what I read about this movie, the screeplay was rejected by all the major studios, so their budget was likely limited as it was an 'Indy' production.
Sorry folks, only a select few like George Lucas can afford a staff of hundreds to obsess over the smallest of details. Ever seen the making of Star Wars Episode III? Yikes – talk about production staff overkill!
MAbruce wrote: conagher wrote:Contrary to what some folks may think, directors doing a project such as Fly Boys do strive for historical accuracy...to a point. The historical research has to stop at a place where the attention to detail becomes overwhelming. And since it's not a documentary, somewhere along the way, historical accuracy may be compromised due to other areas with a higher budget priority. This is a business structured to make a profit...not a School Board production for a classroom broadcast. As an actor in various disciplines, I can assure you no director wants blatant historical errors. That's why you'll see, as the credits roll down the screen...something like Joe Blough-Technical Advisor. He's hired to provide a professional element for a particular purpose. If the "expert" makes a mistake, who has the knowledge to challenge him??? No one knows everything...including the experts. As someone with some directing experience, I concur with this. Historical accuracy in this type of movie is important as it lends credibility to the production. However, it all really depends on the budget (as in how many ‘experts’ can be hired), and how much detail (and what detail) is deemed important to the overall impact of the production. One could spend boatloads of money on consultants to get every minute detail correct – all to have it wiz by so fast that most viewers wouldn’t even notice it anyway. In the case of Flyboys, I doubt that a few train buffs potentially noticing the train would have prompted the director to spend the extra money to obtain a historically accurate train (or at least make the same one appear different) in a movie primarily about WWI airplanes. From what I read about this movie, the screeplay was rejected by all the major studios, so their budget was likely limited as it was an 'Indy' production. Sorry folks, only a select few like George Lucas can afford a staff of hundreds to obsess over the smallest of details. Ever seen the making of Star Wars Episode III? Yikes – talk about production staff overkill! Hi MABruce, You are correct, it was an independent production. Tony Bills did the best he could with what he had. I have met the production crew of One Six Right and some of the folks in it. I have a friend in the entertainment business, she is a professional actress, been in several movies, and numerous TV series "Dynasty"-"Lois and Clark", "V-The Final Battle", first movie was 48 Hours with Nick Nolte and Eddie Murphy. Remember the "hooker" scene, that was my bestest female buddy from high school. Together we now are forming a new company. We attempted to make a documentary movie about a World War Two female WASP pilot, who is actually my neighbor, and by the way she was selected by Tom Brokaw to be in his book, "The Greatest Generation" It takes some BIG BUCKS!!! Ever try to lease a B-17, a B-24, a Beech D-18, a B-25, a PT-17, a T6-Texan, and a P-47 and a P-38 and also have pilots to fly them in period costumes??? Oh yes, you have to basically lease several different airports also. Plus fuel,, plus insuraace, plus permits, plus feed a movie crew, plus rent hotel rooms, cars, have food catered, rent or beg other needed facilities. Oh and let's not forget the locally based Nickel Plate Berkshire "765" complete with a passenger car consist. It all sounds like this KA-CHING KA CHING KA CHING!!! That old cash register clangs and cranks real fast! So you go looking for investors, because the big boys( major studios) would blow you off in a heart beat! We did have two of my friends actor buds willing to help play parts. Rita Wilson, and Lorenzo Lamas, and Jim Belushi offered also. But the the lady who it was to be about hired some jerkwater lawyer to represent her, and he blew the whole deal. I sure wanted to see that big Berkshire running though, but then some big rail company didn't want to play ball and lease trackage rights either. Lots of problems, lots of logistics, and what if that Berkshire wasn't exactly right, okay who was going to just show up Johnny on the Spot with another complete (authentically correct) train with trackage rights leased? Then as far as the aircraft, I'm sure there were lots of WW2 buffs with their big warbirds who more than willing to fly half way across the country burning 50 to several hundred gallons of avgas per hour at $5.00 a gallon, to see their airplane in a scene for all of a few minutes at the best. Tony Bills did OKAY in my book!!! Hey he gave us a pretty good movie!!! Man, how I'd love to see that trestle bridge they built across the ocean to get that train to France!!! TheK4Kid Working on the Pennsy and Also director of midwest operations for Fit Camp
Hi MABruce, You are correct, it was an independent production. Tony Bills did the best he could with what he had. I have met the production crew of One Six Right and some of the folks in it.
I have a friend in the entertainment business, she is a professional actress, been in several movies, and numerous TV series "Dynasty"-"Lois and Clark", "V-The Final Battle", first movie was 48 Hours with Nick Nolte and Eddie Murphy.
Remember the "hooker" scene, that was my bestest female buddy from high school. Together we now are forming a new company.
We attempted to make a documentary movie about a World War Two female WASP pilot, who is actually my neighbor, and by the way she was selected by Tom Brokaw to be in his book, "The Greatest Generation" It takes some BIG BUCKS!!! Ever try to lease a B-17, a B-24, a Beech D-18, a B-25, a PT-17, a T6-Texan, and a P-47 and a P-38 and also have pilots to fly them in period costumes??? Oh yes, you have to basically lease several different airports also.
Plus fuel,, plus insuraace, plus permits, plus feed a movie crew, plus rent hotel rooms, cars, have food catered, rent or beg other needed facilities.
Oh and let's not forget the locally based Nickel Plate Berkshire "765" complete with a passenger car consist. It all sounds like this KA-CHING KA CHING KA CHING!!! That old cash register clangs and cranks real fast!
So you go looking for investors, because the big boys( major studios) would blow you off in a heart beat! We did have two of my friends actor buds willing to help play parts. Rita Wilson, and Lorenzo Lamas, and Jim Belushi offered also.
But the the lady who it was to be about hired some jerkwater lawyer to represent her, and he blew the whole deal. I sure wanted to see that big Berkshire running though, but then some big rail company didn't want to play ball and lease trackage rights either. Lots of problems, lots of logistics, and what if that Berkshire wasn't exactly right, okay who was going to just show up Johnny on the Spot with another complete (authentically correct) train with trackage rights leased? Then as far as the aircraft, I'm sure there were lots of WW2 buffs with their big warbirds who more than willing to fly half way across the country burning 50 to several hundred gallons of avgas per hour at $5.00 a gallon, to see their airplane in a scene for all of a few minutes at the best.
Tony Bills did OKAY in my book!!! Hey he gave us a pretty good movie!!! Man, how I'd love to see that trestle bridge they built across the ocean to get that train to France!!!
TheK4Kid
Working on the Pennsy and
Also director of midwest operations for Fit Camp
reklein wrote: andrechapelon wrote: reklein wrote:I noticed the train thing too, plus about a jillion other things. Oh !,They did leave out shots with contrails in the background, HOWEVER, it was great entertainment nonetheless. Plenty enough action for me to suspend my disbelief for a couple hours. I haven't seen "Flyboys" yet, but IIRC, it's a WWI movie. To the best of my knowledge, supercharged reciprocating aircraft engines didn't exist until about the 1930's (e.g. B-17, etc.). The maximum ceiling of a WWI aircraft would therefore have been under 15,000 feet. No WWI aircraft could have reached an altitude where contrails would have been formed. Andre What I meant was, that at least the movie didn't make the mistake of having contrails in the aerial shots. As some period western movies have. I still enjoyed the movie immensely. I used to fly R/C and my favorites to fly were the WWI prototype models.
Oh, OK. I wasn't sure what you were getting at.
As for the unprototypical trains, I think it would have been pretty hard, not to mention expensive, for the filmmaker to have cobbled together a reasonably correct French train, unless he had beaucoup bucks and an in with the French National Railway Museum staff. Check here http://www.martynbane.co.uk/2003Trips/Brienzetc/museum4.htm , about 1/2 way down the page for some locos that would have at least fit the era. Cobbling together a train of 40&8 (40 hommes, 8 chevaux) boxcars would have also been a stress inducing undertaking.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
I've also read too many complaints that are equivalent too "The movie was set in 1945, but they used an E9 instead of an E2".
--David
tatans wrote:It's a movie ! that should tell you enough, since when did Hollywood get in the information business? It's sole process is to make wads of money by producing schlock the public thinks they want, occaisionally, and very mysteriously the odd movie makes it to the public which does not question our intelligence. Take for instance a movie called 'Saskatchewan" a very flat bald-headed prairie Province in Canada, this movie was supposed to have taken place in the U.S. but was filmed in Banff-in the heart of the Rocky Mountains, and starred Marylin Monroe in a pair of sprayed on blue jeans, How's that for authenticity. I think if you are looking for accuracy, the very last place to look would be a Hollywood movie. Try a book.
Tatans--you've turned me into a nitpicker, LOL! You're right about Saskatchewan being a prairie province in Canada, but you got the film title wrong. The Marilyn Monroe movie is called RIVER OF NO RETURN which was filmed in British Columbia and Montana. SASKATCHEWAN is an old Alan Ladd/Shelley Winters Canadian 'western' filmed in Alberta. But you're right, Hollywood very seldom gets trains right in the movies, especially these days (perhaps because there are so very few operable 'period' trains left). In fact, the last historically 'accurate' movie I saw featuring authentic 19th century trains was a good Alan Ladd western called WHISPERING SMITH, and that was made in 1949, when Hollywood still had a reasonable stable of old railroad equipment (most of which is now at the V&T Museum in Carson City, NV.).
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I agree. Another movie I found an error in was "Force Ten from Navarone". The good guys were jumping off of a train in WW2 Germany.
As it went by, it was being pulled by a modern electric engine and the last car had a FRED on the back.
Dick
Texas Chief
If you want to see it I would advise you to hurry up. Apparently Flyboys is less than a box office hit since it is rapidly dwindling to fewer and fewer screens --- on west side Manhattan where we live it's down to only two screens.
By the way, All the King's Men contains a brief rail anachronism too --- there is a very brief "cameo" of a contemporary diesel powered freight, and the story --- whose other period details are marvelous --- is set between 1947 and 1954.
Guys,I love the Emperor of the North Starring Lee Marvin and Ernest Borgnine.
However as a former brakeman I notice many errors,2 rule infractions and one Union violation.Still I enjoy this fantasy railroad movie.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: Guys,I love the Emperor of the North Starring Lee Marvin and Ernest Borgnine. However as a former brakeman I notice many errors,2 rule infractions and one Union violation.Still I enjoy this fantasy railroad movie.
I enjoyed this film very much. I would like, out of curiosity; to understand the errors =)
Safety Valve wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Guys,I love the Emperor of the North Starring Lee Marvin and Ernest Borgnine. However as a former brakeman I notice many errors,2 rule infractions and one Union violation.Still I enjoy this fantasy railroad movie. I enjoyed this film very much. I would like, out of curiosity; to understand the errors =)
For starters..
The way "cracker" swings on the caboose at the beginning of the movie after taking on water.That IS NOT the proper way of swinging on to a caboose.
No 'bo would ride between cars-to dangerous.
No conductor who break the rules by "highballin'" out of the yard again to dangerous.
NO conductor would take the throttle away from the engineer.Safety violation
No conductor would shovel coal..Why? His place of duty is in the caboose..There would have been a head brakeman or "Cracker" would have rode the engine cab.Also this would be a Union violation as well.
NO conductor would shove another employee out of the way while he was trying to unlock a switch-safety reasons.
The trains whistling each other-both trains would have stopped or at least the passenger train would have slowed down upon hearing the other whistle.
#19 was suppose to be a local but,it pulled the same cars through the movie expect for the cattle car and flat car.
How did the hay get moved from one side of the stock car to the other?
Rather then endangering the train conductors would stop the train and uncoupled the burning car rather then race ahead to the yard-not to mention this would have fanned the flames and both 'bos would have perish because hey burns quickly unless its still green from being cut which was not the case so,it ould have been tender dry.
How about Tora Tora Tora or Midway where the American carriers were Viet Nam era super carriers? Most every war movie I have watched contains some technical errors. A scene in the Hunt for Red October starts showing an F-14 making a crash landing on the Enterprise but the final sequence shows a Korean War F2-H Banshee breaking up. As a matter of fact I have seen that Banshee scene in at least 4 different movies. Now I know the Navy films (or tapes) every landing on a carrier so it seems more appropriate footage could be found.
Oh well lets get back to trains.
For all the harping about historical/technical errors, it should be remembered that moviemaking is a costly business. Generally speaking, the story line takes precedence over the technical accuracy of what in most cases is background action.
Item: "Von Ryan's Express". The trains for the most part were dead on accurate because the FS (Italian State Railways) had some old equipment still in service when the movie was made, including a rather interesting Franco-Crosti boilered 2-8-0. However, the aircraft used were not Me-109's which were fighter aircraft and would have been appropriate, but Me-108's which were trainer aircraft that vaguely resembled the 109.
Let's suppose you wanted to remake VRE. Where in the dickens are you going to get the equipment to put together not one, but two complete WWII era Italian trains (not to mention stretches of railroad still using WWII era signal systems) as well as any flyable aircraft that bear the remotest resemblance to an Me-109? Even assuming it's possible, the cost would be prohibitive.
Item: "The Train". This was a 1965 movie which used an old French 4-6-0 to pull a train filled with art treasures being looted from France by fleeing ***. Even here, in at least one scene, there was the anachronism in the background of some SNCF 141-R's, locomotives which were supplied to the SNCF by American and Canadian builders AFTER the war. There are several locomotives in the French National Railway Museum that would be suitable for a remake, but then you need a complete train that is compatible. How much money are you willing to spend to overhaul a static museum locomotive and recondition 15-20 old freight cars to be correct for the era? Then you have to find a suitable non-electrified French mainline. Hard to do in this day and age, not to mention eating up most of your budget.
Suppose you wanted to remake "North By Northwest". Since that's not a historical movie, you could get by with updating the train scenes to Amtrak's "Lake Shore Limited" and set it in the present day. If you wanted to do a copy of the original version, you'd have to assemble a complete 16 car 20th Century Limited including a pair of E-7's. Good luck. Better to use stock footage and interior sets.
'Course Hollywood's not the only place that likes to avoid excessive costs. In the late 1990's, a Swedish film company made a film called "Dancer In The Dark" which was supposed to be set in the US. This locomotive http://www.ravnsbak.dk/articles/my%20mx%20class/photos%20eng/picture%20great%20northern%201.htm was painted in GN colors and used in the movie. At least it has an EMD 567 prime mover and sounds like an EMD first generation unit and they did a good paint job on it.
Then there's the "spaghetti Westerns". I don't think Sergio Leone ever contacted the Sierra Railroad to get something that might "pass" (if not being totally authentic) since it would have required shooting on 2 continents, taken a great deal of time and cost quite a bit of money.
Ever see "Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines"? Most, if not all, the aircraft were replicas powered by the old air cooled VW engine. They actually looked pretty good. However, there was one scene in the movie in which a train appeared. The train was supposed to be a French one. However, both the cars and locomotive were British. The locomotive was an ex-Highland Railway "Jones Goods" 4-6-0 built in 1894. This one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:103_Highalnd_rly_Jones_Goods_MuseumofTransportGlasgow.jpeg Even knowing that, I still found it funny when Terry Thomas "landed" on the roof of the train and got his undercarriage stuck between cars and then got the wings torn off his plane when the train went through an underpass.
If you want to see a movie that is both funny and includes trains, rent "The Titfield Thunderbolt" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046436/ . Only the Brits could have made that movie. It's a scream. The trains are authentic. 'Course, in 1953, the Brits were still building steam locomotives.
andrechapelon wrote:Let's suppose you wanted to remake VRE. Where in the dickens are you going to get the equipment to put together not one, but two complete WWII era Italian trains (not to mention stretches of railroad still using WWII era signal systems) as well as any flyable aircraft that bear the remotest resemblance to an Me-109? Even assuming it's possible, the cost would be prohibitive.
Three letters: CGI (Computer Generated Images).
Of course this would require a carefully planned and extremely detailed shot composition in order to integrate the CG effects with reality. It would be a pain to plan out, but these days it would actually be a lot cheaper than coming up with the props/equipment. More productions these days are moving in this direction. The cost CGI has come down dramatically, and there is so much more that can be done with it in a convincing way (in many ways the audience doesn’t even know it’s being used).