I am 25 And the steam era is my favorite!! I love the sights smells and sounds. Nothing against diesel but there isnt a whole lot of curves or anything in the newer locos. They all look cookie cutter to me. The main reason I am building a transional RR is because I love Steam and early diesel's. I am not to worried about the selection of steam in N-scale because sooner or later they are going to catch up with a lot of us n-scalers. HO is still the most prominiant scale to model in, But I feel that N-scale is coming "Full Steam" into the new century!
Just my 2 cents,
Curt
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
A big thanks again to everyone who has responded so far. I've read every post and as usual you have been helpful. Now for some answers to your questions or comments:
Don asked how info from other shops in other regions would be helpful to my shop, and shouldn't I be paying attention to what my own clientele wants. Good point. I do listen to my own customers, of course, but I was just wondering how other shops dealt with this subject. I don't seem to be able to find an acceptable solution here, so I (selfishly?) asked the forum members what other shops stock. Looks like I'm not alone on the stocking steam issue.
Dave V - no need to apologize about not buying locomotives from your LHS to me, anyway. It's economically understandable and you are correct, I hear it all the time. Heard it today as a matter of fact. Maybe I should quit stocking locomotives entirely and focus on the items where I can better compete with the net. Although quite frankly this part of the discussion, were I to give all the facts about my store, would cross the fine line of advertising so I'll stop here. Seems silly to have a train store with no locomotives though.
In fact, this is where Big Rusty pointed out that "you can't sell from an empty wagon".....a very true statement. Here comes that fine line again, but let's assume I don't have an empty wagon. You mentioned that when your generation begins to disappear then that will be it for steam anyway. I respectfully disagree, as I think folks in all age groups will still tell you today that the transition era is the most popular modeling era.
Big Rusty also mentioned that my store was no longer relevant (to him) and it will only get worse. Again I will politely disagree but I'm not here to argue with folks. (although I can or will) There is evidence to support your statement, but there is evidence that tells me things are getting better, not worse.
GearDrivenSteam asked about me considering Broadway as being a high-end priced item. There again knowing your own market determines what you consider to be high-end. Paul nailed it on the head. What is affordable to some is expensive to others, but I guess that's true no matter what state you live in.
jsoderq bought up good points in the perceptions of quality vs. price - always a balancing act.
ctrainzs: just wanted to point out where you mention about the spending you did in your LHS "I realize that 200 bucks was not worth much." While I can't speak for other shops, let me say you should never think that the amount you spend is not worth much. Where would I be without all the 20 dollar sales along with the larger purchases? Out of business. Your LHS is probably, or should be, grateful for every dollar.
Dick: nope, no marketing classes here. This was/is a learn-on-the-job deal.
The layout in the store is a great idea. I sort of have one. It's a long, long story. Perhaps another thread.
Lastly, about Bowser, I did not mean to exclude them from my list. It's true that I am not in the hotbed of PRR activity, but you all would be surprised at what makes up my local business from a road name standpoint. Again, maybe another thread, maybe not - might cross the promotion fine line. More likely I would be concerned with - as we can all see from some posts on this forum - the willingness to put together a steam locomotive kit these days. Never had anyone ask about or order one. But thankfully Bowser still makes them, so they must do well somewhere.
OK my lunch break is over. Thanks again for the replies so far.
Virginian wrote:Good luck selling a lot of Bowser Pennsy style boilers/fireboxes where he is in Arkansas.
Bowser has a few non-PRR engines... though few folks today would build a die-cast USRA 2-8-2 themselves when there are so many RTR DCC and sound versions on the market. There are still some craftsmen (and craftswomen) out there that might. He/she would be rewarded with an engine that could pull the bumper off his/her car.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I enjoy "modern" steam and pretty much all diesels from the F-units on up. I own several diesels, but only 3 steam locos. The reason I don't own as many steam is because they are generally more expensive than their diesel counterparts. Case in point, I can get a P2K SD-45 for less than $50, but I can't find a Spectrum 2-8-0 for less than about $65 (even on eBay). Also, there seems to be a lot more abundant supply of diesel models on the market than steam models. You can get just about any diesel model from just about every major manufacturer. How many "major" manufacturers have steam models available for a reasonable price? (I can think of 3 off the top of my head that don't have any steam models). And of the manufacturers that offer steam models, how much variety is there in their steam models? Seems like Athearn comes out with a single Genesis model every year. P2K maybe 2 or 3. And these all seem to be in limited runs, so they become impossible to find a couple of years later. Also, steam models have more moving parts, and thus more opportunities for something to go wrong.
Bottom line, the reasons I "hate" steam are: higher average cost as compared to "similar" diesel models, limited availability and variety of models available at any given time, more mechanically complex than diesel models.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
Goldmine wrote:Steam is boring! I didnt grow up in that era so it does not please or excite me. now if I was born in the 40's I would have saw alot of steam and would have a different feeling towards it but since I was born in the late 70's I do not KNOW srteam. I do not like cars from the 40's-80's either. Steam for me is just old guy stuff. OOOPs I mean well experienced guy stuff.
Have fun with your trains
Hey again, OTM.
If it were fifedog's lhs, I'd stock anything I could that was regional specific. I'm not sure what railroads ran in or around Little Rock, but I'd be sure to school myself and stock my display case accordingly. There's just something about hand's on/up close and personal shopping that on-line can't compare to. Yeah, one might find a better price after hours of sitting in front of the monitor, but shipping & handling and all the other sircharges tend to get forgotten.
Then there is the occasional RR themed convention that comes around. We doodles do branch out on own to locate hobby shops, and if the product is there, we are more likely to buy right there, right then.
And lots not forget the Mommas, Grand-mammas, and wifeepoos who will meander in around the holidays to pick up "one of those cute little choo-choo$"...
Let me second the Bowser suggestion. A couple of reasons:
1) The kits allow you to build either a 'bare bones' model or, for the price of an upgrade kit, a superdetailed kit. Modularity has its appealing side for both consumer and seller.
2) Bowser has a full range of models - most of the USRA types, plus some semi-Harriman 2-8-0s and 4-6-0s; you can go up in size to the Big Boy, and down to the 0-4-0. USRA models appeal to a range of modelers.
3) There is always a selection of Bowser kits on Ebay, but not in anything like the profusion of Bachmann Spectrum models.
Now that the Roundhouse kits are out of production, Bowser's pretty much it for the easy-to-build, inexpensive diecast kit market.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
I am an "old" guy and I love "certain" steam engines. I can see why stocking a lot of it is not the wisest business decision from your perspective. My LHS didn't stock a lot either, but he would order it and that suited me with his pricing. He had lots of all the other stuff I needed, too.
Steam engines, especially as you go up in price, are quite railroad specific and the afficianados are prototypically correct in their desires. That almost insures rather limited local marketability.
Next time someone asks you that, say "I don't. Which one do you want me to order for you?" I hate to say it, but I bet a lot of them want to look at one up close and then go compare your pricing online before they buy one. On an approximately $315 steam engine, my dealer was very competitive with online dealers. I did have to pay sales tax, but no shipping, and it would have been worth $15 to me to have a dealer to handle any issues if they had arisen, but I didn't even have to do that. If you operate like that I wouldn't sweat the complainers, you are always going to have them.
grayfox1119 wrote:......PROMOTION? That is exactly what the LHS that Mr. B is referring too, and unless I am wrong, it is Maine Trains in Chelmsford, MA on route 4...
That's right, Foxy. You can check out the in-store layout at www.mainetrains.com or look back a couple of issues and see photos in RMC. When I walk into the store and hear engines idling in the back corner of the shop, I walk right over there and feel very, very envious. It's not just a steam issue, by the way. Diesel sound gets me, too.
Here's another issue: How many people simply can't run big steam on their layouts because of minimum curve radius restrictions? I know I've only got so much space for a layout, and I don't have the luxury of being able to use 36-inch radius curves. So, when I get around to doing the dual-era thing on my layout, I'll be looking for shorter engines that can handle 18-inch curves and not look silly going around them.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I have heard it many times from vareous shops that they will not carry certain brands becuase the the manufacturer undercuts the shop by having a sale. What are they thinking? I work for a dirrect from producer delivery service and even when we have sales we barely come close to the market or big box store price as they sell much more than us.
If the manufacturer can afford to have a sale that undercuts what the shop has already purchased from them, is it possible to give them a credit at cost so they in turn could also have a sale on those items? Maybe only upon the sale of such items.Then the shop could actually buy more to stock and stay up to date. Would that help support the shops better? I know everyone makes more on the higher priced items, but wouldn't the shop owner appreciate moving some items to have a chance to order the newer better items?
In terms of the steam, I like it but in N-scale they don't run as well as most of the diesels. I plan to have a fleat of them one day after I get my diesel are stuff running well ( proving the trackwork ). I will have steam era only sessions and then switch back and forth. The layout is not big enough for both.
Well good luck to al those train stores out there I have recently been reduced to one in reasonable driving distance. It seems to me that the shops that stay around for a while are in high rent areas where people are not looking so much for a bargain. There is more disposable income around. In the past I would search out shops in the desert areas, but most have closed leaving the few expensive shops open but usually fairly well stocked.
John
As for not appreciating steam because you were "botn too late", a little anecdote. My 2 sons were born in 1962 and 1966. When theAmerican Freedom Train was in Spokane I drove them out to a grade crossing about 3 miles from where the diesel that double headed the train to get it out of the Spokane River Valley was cut off. It was well after dark and by the time he got to us he was doing about 45 MPH and accelerating w/ quite a bit of extra work on the whistle. After the last car went by, my elder son looked over at me and, in a hushed voice, said' "Now I know what all the fuss over steam is about". We now go out every time SP&S 700, SP 4449, or UP 3985 show up and chase them from La Grande Oregon to Garrison Mt (Is the Pac NW a great place to live or what?!). There are steam engines running all over the country. Get out there and watch a few, up close and personal.
As for dsl vs stm in the hobby shop, let's keep in mind that most of the current MRR interest is either BNSF or UP in the West and CSX or NS in the East. What would a hobby shop in, say St; Louis, KC or Chicago, have to stock to have a representative sample of local RRs reaching back into the '45-'55 era?
Hi Goldmine
I was born in the sixties so saw the end of steam in the early seventies.
I consider diesels to be boring push a button and it goes ,where as a steam locomotive if you don't treat it right you will not get it to run well and two locomotives from the same class built in the same workshop will have different characteristics.
The closest thing to a living machine man has so far built.
I would add turning back to the real topic in hand the manufacturers seem to to have less and less steam locomotives in their catalogues these days
So it gets even harder because you cannot sell what no one is making and with all due respect the quality of the current locomotives is absolute rubish in the reasonable price range stuff
I have a Tri-ang US outline pacific that is older than I am and it runs well but I will need some motor brushes for it soon which can be replaced.
I have a modern loco that has run its two hundred hours and according to the manufacturer I should throw out the motor an buy a new motor as its not repairable.
Great detail that runs rings around the old one but the old one has quality of manufacture that the new doesn't even attempt to come close to.
So the question I would ask is why would any one want to buy modern manufactured trains the quality just isn't there like it used to be
Regards John
Hey guys thanks for all the comments so far!
The reason I post this sort of thing is because when you are so close to the subject all the time, you wonder if your own thinking is jaded or whatever, always like to hear what others think.
Just to reiterate, while I don't model the steam era I personally have no dislike of steam. Chased the 3985 halfway across the state awhile back.
And it's not that steam sits here and does not sell, more like, it DOES sell and then it's sold out...this is of course a problem with some diesel releases too.
As I mentioned, I think some brands have their drawbacks....others, it's just the limited edition nature of things that make it hard to keep steam in stock.
And yes, I definately see an interest in steam from younger folks. And by younger I mean, anyone born after steam had disappeared. Some of you might be surprised at the interest displayed in steam by customers - others, obviously from your posts - would not be surprised at all at the continued interest.
May well reply some more later, back to work.
One Track Mind
I don't think I can offer any real solutions. I owned a store (not hobby) and one thing we did was offer layaway. None of our merchandise was over $100 but it seemed to help some of our cusotmers. It wasn't without hassle though. A LHS I do business with lets us do layaway too, and I bought a set of Genesis F units that way and it was appreciated.
Owning a small business is tough and it requires tough decisions. You would think with the wholesalers and just in time inventory that you could keep some items on hand without a huge inventory. Of course limited runs doesn't help that kind of set up, but that is for another thread.
Rick
Wichita, KS
I can appreciate your position as a store owner as not wanting to have alot of unmoveable stock on hand.
It's a shame that you think of steam that way though.
The other person who thinks that steam will 2 generations down the road be forgotten,well.........
I run steamers on my layout almost exclusively and my son (who's 19)who has never seen a real steam engine has absolutely NO INTEREST in diesels.
His take on it is "Why would I run diesels on my layout? If I want to see a diesel I'll just go down to the railroad station.
At our LHS they have a permanent layout so you can try out any engine you are thinking of buying.
We go there regularly.When they are running diesel engines, people just glance as they walk by looking for whatever they came for.
When the owner runs intermediate or large steamers everyone stops and gawks at the layout for extended periods of time.
Hope my input is of some small help.
Eric.
My LHS has a nice little operating demo layout, and he also does a good business installing and upgrading decoders. I frequently go in and see a steam engine that's under contract for sound, or a new model that's come in. I don't think he can keep them in stock. The immediate appeal of a steamer with sound moving down the tracks, surrounded by nice era-appropriate scenery, is too much for most of us. The MTH K4 came in, and he was going to set it up for demos, but it was sold by the next time I came in.
So, my advice is to have a nice place to demo the engines, and let them sell themselves. Sound is the big key right now, so the low-end engines will sell as fill-ins or second engines, but the real lure is ear power. As for me, I model the 1960's, but between my LHS and Bob Grech, I've been convinced that I need to plan my layout so I can swap out a few automobiles, and then put away my rolling stock and engines, and replace them with models from an earlier era.
Maybe you could reply that you don't hate steam. You just hate that it doesn't move well, and takes up valuable space in your inventory far too long. Over time, steam will fizzle out for most modelers...that is a given for me. Once two generations beyond steam have come and gone, so will the interest in modeling for the most part....I repeat, for the most part.
If you look at the offerings of the online retailers and discounters, the diesels outnumber steamers by a wide margin, and that surely can't be because the retailers "hate" steam. The "like" moving stock that pleases their customers, because it keeps the liquidity for the business.
I suppose that some of the proven Spectrum stock (Mountain and Consolidation) could move, but how quickly is anyone's guess. IHC locos, as you say, are quite reasonable, and fairly reliable, so maybe they could have a place or two. The problem is that they are heavily discounted online, so how do you compete?
My LHS in Nanaimo sells maybe four steamers a year, if I can judge accurately by his display. In fact, I think he may move as many, or more, on consignment!
It's a dilemma for all the niche markets within the broader hobby of model railroading. There are usually only a few mr's (often less than 10 or 20) in any given niche (2 rail O, On3, On2, S, Sn3, pre-1920 HO, HOn3, HOn30, etc) within a given geographic area of an LHS. So the LHS doens't find it worth his while to stock for those niche markets. Because the LHS doesn't stock it, there is no exposure outside of being published in the magazines, and there is precious little new demand for niche market products. The manufacturers (nearly all small time) have a hard time growing their business for lack of exposure in the LHS.
The Internet is a great place for selling known products because it is mainly a one way communications medium. Here's a standard product, here's our low price. Because our price is low, we offer no support other than, at best, posting a picture of the product. We take your order and ship, and provide minimal follow-up. We know what to order by what gets sold. We don't bother with stocking or selling low demand items, or items that take more describing, or that might have a high return rate, or that might take instruction in its use.
For these reasons, the Internet is a crummy place to sell new products or products that are not well understood. I'll bet if the Walters catalog went away, there would be a lot less buying over the Internet. Without at least that level of detail in description and comparisons available to us, most of us would be a lot more hesitant to spend major $$ without seeing the item in advance.
But because in general the LHS won't stock their products, the niche market producers are forced into direct sales over the Internet, where they remain invisible to the mainstream hobbyist. How does the cycle get broken?
It really takes teamwork by the local niche hobbyists, the LHS, and the niche manufacturers to drive up demand to a reasonable level. An example is Caboose Hobbies. I am a loyal customer because they do stock mcuh of what is available for my 1900 era HO and HOn3. They have become known as one of (there are several others) the premiere sources for HOn3.
Another possible route was shown by Bachmann with their launch of On30. But that was only possible because Bachmann ensured everything a beginner would need was readily available, and the product looked good and ran well from the beginning. I imagine the story could be repeated in either HOn3 or HOn30 (but likely not both), but it takes risking some real $$ to launch. Early and geared steam also is risky, but has generally proven successful to those who took the risk.
Enough prattling. OTM, obviously some of your customers do want to buy steam. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't be asked about your lack of inventory. So there is some demand there. Find out what locomotives they would be interested in. Stock just a very few of those. Both Reed's in San Diego and Grandfather's do that with HOn3. Also, stock a few of the "cute", lower-priced steam engines that could be sold as "impulse" buys. The new Bachmann or Roundhouse 4-4-0, almost any reasonably priced Shay or Climax, and if somebody came out with a nice-looking (and decent running) small switcher or Docksider would all be candidates for "impulse" buys. An example of this working in practice is the initial releases of the MT HOn3 reefers. Lastly, immediately order for anybody requesting. Order double if you think it will sell. That way, you build your reputation as the LHS with the "goods" and drive demand up.
my thoughts, my advice is worth every dime you paid for it
Fred W
First, steam is very specific to a certain railroad, meaning it's marketability is very limited.
The problem with Bachmann , even spectrum is uneven quality - some run good , some don't. A guy was bragging on the Bachmann board about great customer service as he had to send back 7 of his 10 for repairs and Bachmann fixed every one- great advertising, and yes, they were Spectrums.
For One Track - Bachmann become available in Hong Kong long before they are here which is why they end up on ebay before you get yours.
The problem with IHC is design. Some are OK some are not. How do you know which? As pointed out, when sales drop, they blow them out. Also it is hard to get parts for repair as they are pretty much not available.
Broadway's problem is perception - the PRR T1s and GG1 had problems that left people afraid. They are good about repair/replacement, but it can take time and people have no patience.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943