BNSF

[colvinbackshop]

I am wanting to do a "flow of mergers" resulting in the BNSF, done with heralds on a lighting valance in my Trainroom. Does anybody know??

Did the CB&Q have a herald, other than the Burlington Route? Did it become the Burlington Route after mergers with the Fort Worth & Denver and the Colorado & Southern or were they subsidiaries in the first place?

Did the Fort Worth & Denver have a complex herald? I've only seen simple letters.

How about the AT&SF? What happened to "Atchison & Topeka"? Did the Santa Fe have mergers with other railroads along the way? 

Any input is most welcome!

Puffin' & Chuggin', JB

[jrbernier]

The C&S and the FW&D did have old logo's from long ago.  They were subsidiaries of the Burlington and the steam & diesel engines were basically painted to match the Burlington, with just 'FW&D' or 'C&S' initials on the cab.  They used the standard Burlington logo.  For what it's worth:

C&S/FW&D were part of the CB&Q, but their 'paper' status lasted into the BN merger and the legal status was not gone until the mid 70's.

BN was formed in 1970, and made up of the GN/NP/SP&S/CB&Q.  SLSF(Frisco) was merged into the BN about 1980.  in the 1990's BN and ATSF merged into the BNSF....

Jim

[tomikawaTT]

I am not a U.S. railway historian; this is just something I found while doing other research:

The present BNSF main across northern Arizona was built as the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad.  How it became part of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe deponent saith not.

Incidentally, the lyrics of the old song claimed that the "list of passengers that's mighty big," had traveled, "All the way from Phil-ah-dul-fiy-ay, on the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe."  I often wondered what Pennsy thought of that.  (I doubt that the AT&SF had trackage rights.)

Chuck

[Don Gibson]

Johnny Mercer's lyrics were done for the movie 'The Harvey Girls',

and ''Phila-delph-eye- aye'' (Penn.) and ''Brown's Hotel'' (Denver) were not on the AT&SF  mainline - nor was Judy Garland (F. Gumm) ever a Harvey Girl. So?

It was a movie, (and a pretty good one), loosely based on a factual history of restaurant mogul Fred Harvey at a time when pre-diner passengers debarked their trains for meals.

Fred has been credited for settling the west with females, who stayed and married. (I thought Lisap would be interested).

[bnshelbysub]

The BNSF web site would be a good starting point. They have a short history of the major railroads that make up the BNSF along with it's herald.

http://www.bnsf.com/aboutbnsf/history/index.html

Bobby

 

[Texas Zepher]

Did the CB&Q have a herald, other than the Burlington Route?

The Burlington Route was more of a nick name/slogan rather than an official name of the railroad.  Depending on how far back you want to go the CB&Q actually started as "The Aurora Branch" off of the Chicago & Northwestern.  It had many mergers and aquisitions before it became the CB&Q.  It seems to me like there were 4 before it even got to the Mississippi River.  There is an excellent book written on it that brings the railroad up through 1962.  Unfortunately I don't have a copy in my library - ummm - "Burlington Route: A History of the Burlington Lines"  by Richard Overton. 

Did it become the Burlington Route after mergers with the Fort Worth & Denver and the Colorado & Southern or were they subsidiaries in the first place?

The Colorado & Southern was officially an independent railroad right up to the BN merger.  It was just owned by the CB&Q, which in turn (since 1910) was owned by the GN and NP.  The FW&D is different, it existed only because there was a law in Texas that said the only railroads that could be in Texas had to be encorporated in Texas.   I don't remember if it is just the C&S operating in Texas or if it was originally the Brazos Branch.  The above CB&Q reference covers the C&S, FW&D, and much of the Colorado Midland as well.

How about the AT&SF? What happened to "Atchison & Topeka"? Did the Santa Fe have mergers with other railroads along the way?

It depends on how far back you want to go.  In the 1800s there were many mergers and aquisitions.  The original Atchison & Topeka Railroad of 1860 was involved with a land grant from the U.S. government in 1864 when it officially became the Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad.  Of course it is hard to dissmiss the St. Joseph & Topeka Railroad of 1857 as possibly being the true origin of the Santa Fe.  During the battle for the Royal Gorge the Santa Fe created and then merged the Pueblo & Arkansas Valley Railroad into their system.  The Kansas & Oklahoma which I believe lasted into the 1980s comes to mind also. There were many more like this.

Much later Atchison & Topeka was simply dropped from the name by the action of the board of directors.  This was just as a modernization move.  However, I don't remember when this occured.  Seems to me like the early 1970s.

At one time the Santa Fe owned the Denver & Rio Grande.  At one time they owned the Frisco. At one time they owned the SP.  None of these resulted in a merger.

So I guess in the big scheme of things - Other than the Atlantic & Pacific aquisition, the Santa Fe was pretty well built from the beginning, was well managed and run, so it avoided much of the merger mania.

A good reference for this is "The Story of the Santa Fe" by Glenn Bradley.  Make certain to get the expanded version.  One version leaves the history hanging around 1889 before they went bankrupt.

------------  Other Things ------------

• Don't forget the Spokane Portland & Seattle, and the Oregon Trunk in the BN merger.
• The NP was the result of many many mergers and aquistions (a really convoluted history I won't even try to abbreviate, other than mentioning the original Chicago St. Paul Minneapolis & Omaha Railway).
• The NP had two major logos (normal monad and Yellowstone park).
• The GN started as the Saint Paul & Pacific which aquired the St. Paul, Minneapolis & Manitoba, which the Minneapolis & St. Cloud leased for 999 years and offically became the GN.  Then there was the Montana Central, the Seattle & Montana among others.  
• The GN itself had seven different official logos.  The first being a simple black rectangle with the RR name in white print angling through it.
• Of course don't forget that the Burlington Northern & Santa Fe just became the BNSF a little over a year ago.

[Charlie]

The only modern railroad the ATSF merged with was the TP&W or the Toledo, Peoria and Western. This happened in the mid 80s. In the early 90s, the ATSF spun off the former TP& W

Ch

[wjstix]

"The NP was the result of many many mergers and aquistions (a really convoluted history I won't even try to abbreviate, other than mentioning the original Chicago St. Paul Minneapolis & Omaha Railway)."

Say what now?? Northern Pacific was chartered in 1864 as the Northern Pacific Railway. I got to see the charter (signed by President Lincoln) while working on a law case involving the BN. Except for buying a half interest in the CB&Q and SP&S, it was pretty much just the NP until the BN merger in 1970.  Not sure that the Omaha was ever connected to the NP, unless it was some small section of joint line in the 19th c. or something?? The Omaha for decades was a part of the Chicago & Northwestern system, their engines kept the C.St.P.M.&O. sublettering into the diesel era.

[Texas Zepher]

Say what now?? Northern Pacific was chartered in 1864 as the Northern Pacific Railway. I got to see the charter (signed by President Lincoln) while working on a law case involving the BN.

Yes, I don't believe I disagree in principle with anything you say, but that is just part of the story.  I meant the NP as how it wound up not just its name. I was also condsidering all the smaller roads it sucked up and used along the way.  That is why I was trying to use the term "merger" loosely.  Then I believe if researched one will find that the charter is the only reason the NP was able to keep its name through all those repeated financial disasters (how many times did it go into recievership?? 4 or 5 as I recall) - it had to keep the name or loose the land grant.  Other railroads when faced with this always altered or totally changed their name and just screwed the stock holders.  With a land grant charter at stake other financial hoops had to be jumped through.  With all the umm shenanigans by Villard with the OR&N would it really have ended up as the NP if it had not had the land grant to preserve the name? I don't know?!? Even then by 1881 when they went through the Crow Reservation it was no longer the Northern Pacific Railway but the Northern Pacific Railroad (no I don't recall exactly when).  There are things like the Saint Paul & Duluth leased in 1883 and purchased outright at a later time.  What about the railroad from Portland to Astor they consumed.

The Utah Northern (narrow gauge) that the US congress bonded to them in 1883.  The Butte Short Line, the Red Bluff & Pony, the Gaylord & Ruby Valley, the Helena Boulder Val & Butte, the Northern Pacific & Montana, the Rocky Fork & Cooke City Railway... And those are the ones just in southwest Montana.   What about the logging road that eventually became the umm umm bitterroot branch (it paralled the Milwalkee electrified main a while before hitting the nasty 4% grades).   If one wants to dig deep enough there are probably a hundered of these small "merged" roads.  This doesn't just apply to the NP but also the GN, AT&SF, CB&Q, definitely the C&S, too.  But the NP is the most convoluted of the bunch - once again probably because of the value of the land grant they could not afford to loose.

It really gets down to what economic definition is being used for "merger".  None of these are on the order of the C&O B&O merger.

And, no I don't care enough to dig out my NP reference books/materials to site references.  I will glady yield any miss-statements to anyone who acutally looks this stuff up.  If one is really intersted they could make a trivial start with "The Northern Pacific - Main Street of the Northwest" by Charles Wood.  As I recall "Across the Columbian Plain" and "To the Columbian Gateway" both by Lewty were fairly good.  "The Northern Pacific and the Selling of the West" by Mickelson also comes to mind.  I cannot think of the really good (as far as financial matters and therefore the technical names of companies) references off the top of my head.

The Omaha for decades was a part of the Chicago & Northwestern system, their engines kept the C.St.P.M.&O. sublettering into the diesel era.

  Yes, you are probably right.  I probably have that one confused with one of the others.....  I could have swore the Omaha at least went to St. Paul though.??

[colvinbackshop]

Well....

Thanks for all the input!! Yes, I know that in going way back, it sometimes seems extremely involved.

"But and So", in going back to the early 1900's and possibly the late 1800's it looks like a merger of 10 to 12 RR's: GN, CB&Q, Colorado Midland, FW&D, Colorado & Southern, NP, SP&S, St.L&SF, AT&SF, Toledo Peoria & Western, Kansas & Oklahoma and maybe the Oregon Trunk and Atlantic & Pacific (and I'm not sure I even know or recall what these roads really were) were the major players in the now BNSF.

[colvinbackshop]

An additional, thought / question...

Other than Signal Signs and Historic Rail, does anybody have a good outlet for heralds, some of which may be a bit obscure (I've never even seen a CB&Q one available)? If need be I can make some...But...I would rather have "professorial" looking heralds if I can find them.

Thanks!

[Shilshole]

Of course don't forget that the Burlington Northern & Santa Fe just became the BNSF a little over a year ago.

1 year, 7 months ago
http://www.bnsf.com/media/news/articles/2005/01/2005_01_24a.html
or 34 years, 10 months, three weeks, and 1 day after Black Monday

Heralds:
http://www.ribbonrail.com/art/heralds.html

More heralds:
http://members.aol.com/trsheralds/logos.htm

[jrbernier]

  As 'Stix' mentioned, the NP was one of the original federal land grant railroads, chartered from Lake Superior to Puget Sound.  The 'Omaha' connection was jut that - A connection to move traffic to Chicago.  The 'Chicago, Burlington & Northern'(the 'Q' river line) was financed by the Hill interests(The GN controlled the NP by this time) to provide a secure connection from St Paul to Chicago.

Jim