Actually Yes they can.
The Milwaukee Road used both Diesel and Electric Locomotives in MU operations on their electrfied lines. The way I understand how it was set up though, that if the Electrics and the Diesels were MUed, the electrics had to be the lead locos because of the way they were wired up to run with the diesles.
Now for other electrfied roads I can not say. But at least the Milwuakee did things that way.
James
I'm fairly sure the OTHER big electric railroad in the US, the Pennsylvania, did NOT MU electric and diesel. If they were matched together for any reason they typically had seperate crews. Oft times steam was used in helper service under PRR wires between Parkesburg and Thorndale in eastern PA, but by the diesel era there were plenty of freight-geared GG1s and P5as to go around such that all-electric head-end power was the norm. For a brief period, PRR used 7 ex-Milwaukee Road 2-C-C-2 electrics as helpers after the L1s 2-8-2s were scrapped, but their 35-mph gearing was unacceptable for the high-speed Philadelphia Division. They were classed FF2, and were scrapped in 1960. By the early 1960s, Pennsy began taking delivery of E44s for freight service. Diesel trains under the wires were not all that uncommon (especially on local freights), but I can't say I've ever come across evidence of diesel and electrics actually MU'ed on PRR.
Why not? PRR developed its own MU system for use with its early electrics in the very early 1930s, before there was a standard MU setup for diesels. Remember too that many first-generation diesels wouldn't MU across manufacturers (i.e., Baldwin used a pneumatic system versus electric for EMD, etc.).
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YES I have seen it done. I rode the Pennsy from Phily to Chicago in 1966. Electrics were attached to the front of our train and cut off once we were over the mountains. The dissels took us the rest of the way to Chicago.
JIM
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jamnest wrote: YES I have seen it done. I rode the Pennsy from Phily to Chicago in 1966. Electrics were attached to the front of our train and cut off once we were over the mountains. The dissels took us the rest of the way to Chicago. JIM
Really? Pennsy electric service never extended past Harrisburg, which is east of the mountains. The change from electric to diesel was done there at Harrisburg station. It was always a one-for-one swap (no cut-offs, but a full locomotive exchange). Since the passenger diesel service facility was in Harrisburg and all of its westbound passenger crews were based there, I'm very surprised you'd have had a diesel on the head end of your train from Philadelphia. There is plenty of literature and documentation (as well as a series of articles in Railmodel Journal and the Keystone, the publication of the PRRT&HS about Harrisburg operations and te electric to steam/diesel exchange) on this locomotive exchange. The catenary ends just north of the Harrisburg yard, and in PRR/PC days also at the Enola electric motor pit, still technically part of the Philadelphia Division. The mountains begin in the Middle Division and the major mountain grades on the Pittsburgh Division.
Master of Big Sky Blue wrote:Actually Yes they can. The Milwaukee Road used both Diesel and Electric Locomotives in MU operations on their electrfied lines. The way I understand how it was set up though, that if the Electrics and the Diesels were MUed, the electrics had to be the lead locos because of the way they were wired up to run with the diesles. Now for other electrfied roads I can not say. But at least the Milwuakee did things that way. James
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Thanks for filling me in with the details.
I dunno if it was possible to MU New Haven electrics to diesels, but they did, on occasion, run them together with most likely two crews. In fact, the calendar this month for the NHRHTA shows a pair of EF-4's (ex-Virginians) behind, IIRC, a GP9, RS-11, and H16-44 (gotta love the NH's loco roster, eh?).
The reason? At certain spots along the Shore Line in the 1960's, the voltage drop got so bad that they had to send out helpers for the electric freights to get them through the low voltage area (hey, the NH last made a profit in 1957...by the late 60's it was a miracle they were running at all).
It still wasn't a "normal" thing to do on the NH.
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Dave Vollmer wrote: jamnest wrote: YES I have seen it done. I rode the Pennsy from Phily to Chicago in 1966. Electrics were attached to the front of our train and cut off once we were over the mountains. The dissels took us the rest of the way to Chicago. JIM Really? Pennsy electric service never extended past Harrisburg, which is east of the mountains. The change from electric to diesel was done there at Harrisburg station. It was always a one-for-one swap (no cut-offs, but a full locomotive exchange). Since the passenger diesel service facility was in Harrisburg and all of its westbound passenger crews were based there, I'm very surprised you'd have had a diesel on the head end of your train from Philadelphia. There is plenty of literature and documentation (as well as a series of articles in Railmodel Journal and the Keystone, the publication of the PRRT&HS about Harrisburg operations and te electric to steam/diesel exchange) on this locomotive exchange. The catenary ends just north of the Harrisburg yard, and in PRR/PC days also at the Enola electric motor pit, still technically part of the Philadelphia Division. The mountains begin in the Middle Division and the major mountain grades on the Pittsburgh Division.
Yes, it was Harrisburg. (Hey I lived in Kansas prior to my family moving to PA and your hills looked like mountains to me.) The electrics were in front of the dissels and cut out at Harrisburg. They also cut in a dinning car for our dinner. I remember that our train was delayed quite a bit in Harrisburg because of equipment problems. We were looking forward to horseshoe curve, but because of the equipment delay in Harrisburg we did not get to horseshoe curve until after sun down. The dissels may have been deadheading in the passenger consist and not used for power, but they were there. It was a boy scout contignet of 25 troops traveling to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. The last ten cars (chair cars) in the train were all boy scouts. We changed trains in Chicago and rode the Denver Zepher to Denver, then by bus to Philmont.
Jay
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jamnest wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote: jamnest wrote: YES I have seen it done. I rode the Pennsy from Phily to Chicago in 1966. Electrics were attached to the front of our train and cut off once we were over the mountains. The dissels took us the rest of the way to Chicago. JIM Really? Pennsy electric service never extended past Harrisburg, which is east of the mountains. The change from electric to diesel was done there at Harrisburg station. It was always a one-for-one swap (no cut-offs, but a full locomotive exchange). Since the passenger diesel service facility was in Harrisburg and all of its westbound passenger crews were based there, I'm very surprised you'd have had a diesel on the head end of your train from Philadelphia. There is plenty of literature and documentation (as well as a series of articles in Railmodel Journal and the Keystone, the publication of the PRRT&HS about Harrisburg operations and te electric to steam/diesel exchange) on this locomotive exchange. The catenary ends just north of the Harrisburg yard, and in PRR/PC days also at the Enola electric motor pit, still technically part of the Philadelphia Division. The mountains begin in the Middle Division and the major mountain grades on the Pittsburgh Division. Yes, it was Harrisburg. (Hey I lived in Kansas prior to my family moving to PA and your hills looked like mountains to me.) The electrics were in front of the dissels and cut out at Harrisburg. They also cut in a dinning car for our dinner. I remember that our train was delayed quite a bit in Harrisburg because of equipment problems. We were looking forward to horseshoe curve, but because of the equipment delay in Harrisburg we did not get to horseshoe curve until after sun down. The dissels may have been deadheading in the passenger consist and not used for power, but they were there. It was a boy scout contignet of 25 troops traveling to Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico. The last ten cars (chair cars) in the train were all boy scouts. We changed trains in Chicago and rode the Denver Zepher to Denver, then by bus to Philmont. JIM
Cool! Once again, it just goes to show that the railroads did not always abide by their own general rules. Like they say, there's a prototype for everything!
I think the only way locomotives couldn't be MU'd would be dependant on the type of control system.
Most diesel loco's were electrical controlled, where a Baldwin "Shark" was hydraulic.
I was reading about the D&H and the Sharks they had couldn't be MU'd with other locomotives for this reason.
Gordon
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