Over weatherazation

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I have seen a good many steam era layout sand modern industrial pikes well crafted and wearhered.

The thing that has struct me over the years several times is how dull and dingy a few of these look.

Granted ,coal opperations are a dirty and grimey industry.
Steam is like wise grime y but my point is that amoung the old and declining shops, homes and RR structures some would be new, others repainted.

One other point foilage and trees seem dull and sort of dying.

Living in the coal fields of W Va all my life I have seen many towns and camps and even though quite depressed looking, the trees and weeds ect., are brilliant green all summer, the water is green to clear often and even in the camps along the lines and sidings it is nice.

Take a lesson from the twice HO guys and put in some color.[:)]

Just something to thenk about.

[BigRusty]

Well Steve, you have hit the nail right smack dab on the head. In the heyday of steam and early diesels the railroads took pride in their fleets and kept them well maintained. Passenger trains were washed beween runs from the locomotive to the observation car. I was there then, so I ought to know. You don't attract passengers with dirty, dingy equipment. Most freight cars were also washed frequently, though some like tank cars and and covered hoppers , etc. could get a little stained from use. Railroads were obligated by rule to clean out cars before returning them to the home road or pay the price. What really amuses me is the extensive weathering done by narrow gaugers replicating late 1800's operations. Everything was NEW then, it didn't get weathered until they ran out of money or shut down. The railroad magnates in those days were PROUD of their engines and kept them polished and shiny. If the station at Ophir is weathered today, you can be sure it wasn't in the heyday of prosperity. If you should visit the Silverton Road you can get a first hand look at how yesterday's rolling stock was maintained. Motto: Don't overdo it! While we are on that subject most RTR rolling stock is molded of colored plastic which in my observation doe NOT even closely resemble the painted prototype. I paint the roofs and underside witheith flat black or brown as approprate and then give the whole car a light spray of dullcoat. Makes a BIG differance in getting rid of that toy train look.

[tomikawaTT]

As in all things, follow the prototype.

If color (not black and white) photos show the subject (locomotive, car, building or entire neighborhood) to be grungy and rusted, model it that way. If it looks new or freshly painted, have the model match it. Most model weathering is way overdone - prototype is dusty with tiny rust streaks, model looks mud-crusted and on the verge of corrosion-induced failure.

Other than killing the "too shiny" look, this is a case where less is usually better than more.

Chuck

[CNJ831]

All the above posts are quite correct - real railroads in the steam era kept up the appearance of their equipment (especially passenger rolling stock). Because of the nature of paints in those days, both freight and passenger cars were repainted decidedly more often than is today's practice and rarely looked totally worn out. Likewise, a great many engineers, particularly those with seniority, took pride in their assigned locomotives and had the shop crews, the hostlers, or themselves maintain the appearance of their equipment to a high degree.

I would say that the hobby's fascination with absurdly over-weathered model railroads arose in the early 1950's, when steam was fast disappearing and not being kept up at all and many RR companies were starting to fail, putting maintainence on the back burner. About that same time, John Allen and a few others of that era would occasionally display HO examples of caracturish cars dramatically aged and weathered in the pages of MR and RMC. For some reason, this absurdity took off among hobbyists and has been with us ever since (although some of today's rolling stock really is as bad looking as the models!).

Weatherbeaten, falling-down, trackside structures, industries, even entire towns, had the same origins, bolstered further by FSM's kits (with occasional help from a few high profile modelers) over the past 20-25 years. While perhaps cluttered, one rarely saw in the steam-era totally falling-down buildings housing operating and especially prospering, manufacturers.

Overly weathered layouts are, at best, to be classified as stylized and, at worst, totally caricaturish, respresenting nothing that ever existed in the real world. Steve makes an additional excellent point that, no matter how rundown-looking the trains and structures might be, the groundcover and tree foilage should never be weathered in a drastic fashion. Except perhaps right next to a coal breaker, the trees and grass are always green. About 20 years ago we had a couple of big-named modelers who indeed weathered ALL their scenery, to the point that everything looked brown, dead, or dying! The moral is: use restraint in your weathering...even photos can be in error if you don't know their backstory !

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

i keep all mine shiny and well maintained.

[Anonymous]

[#ditto] My thoughts are that it cost a lot of money to buy these things and I don't want to risk messing up an expensive piece of equipment. Just my [2c]

[joeyegarner]

A properly weathered model can be a good thing, but you don't have to weather all of them.

When I bought this about 7or 8 years ago it was over $80 my most expensive model at the time. I think this one looks great.

[Beowulf]

The most overdone of all is wood grain. If a car is far enough away to appear the size of the palm of your hand, no grain should be apparent. Grain isn't on the prototype unless it is an abandoned hulk, a fence that's been rotting for 50 years, or a wooden barge graveyard on the Hidson River.

Why are so many plastic cars modeled with "V' grove HORIZONTAL siding? On the prototype it was rare as, if not very well maintained, it would actually encourage rot. Horizontal siding shows up as slight variations in wood thickness, evenness, and the way each board takes paint. VERTICAL "V" grove siding disguises these flaws and can make a car look neater without encouraging rot as water drains down the groove instead of collecting in the groove.

[Texas Zepher]

Yes, I have been preaching "age and era" appropriate weathering for years but some people just don't get it. Our club layout is 1953. This is right when many of the railroads were switching from standard box car red to whatever the railroad's "new image" was going to be. But we still have members that insist on weathering a car that would have been brand new out of the paint shop like a rust bucket.

Likewise for locomotives. The Alco RS-3s and FM Trainmasters would be the new "pride of the fleet" type locomotives but a person took one of these home to weather it. It should have had a little road grime and dust, but it came back with totally faded paint, rust spots, and patches looking like an RS-3 would have looked in the late 1970s or early 1980s. I sent it straight back to the paint shop.

There is also geography appropriate weathering the people don't seem to understand. The sun of the desert southwest weathers things way different than the rain and polution of the northeasat corridor do.

[Anonymous]

Don't get me wrong, I love weathered equipment just as much as the next modeler, but I would not want to try it.

[Anonymous]

Over weatherization?

This is what happens when a newbie weatherer weathers two nice covered hoppers(His 2nd and third cars, respectively)...




...and sells them for $15.90 and $1.77, respectively.


Over weatherization? That's not over weatherization, this is over weatherization.

[xx(][sigh][:I]Matt

[tomikawaTT]

So THAT's what happened to those cars that got soaked when the sulfuric acid tank let go...

Come on, folks! Even when the paint is faded out and failing, the reporting marks and required stenciling will be clean and fresh. If the local graffiti artist covers them, they will be repainted just as soon as a painter can get to them - not because it looks pretty, but because it's a legal requirement.

The point about green, growing things is well made. Even around coal breakers the trees and brush are bright unless the wind has been dead still for quite a while. The only place I have ever seen "grunge-coated" foliage was between the tracks of a very busy steam locomotive terminal. The locos burned a really poor grade of sub-bituminous and smoked abysmally. Even so, trees on the other side of the fence, just a few meters away, didn't look dirty. (The same couldn't be said for the buildings.)

Chuck

[Anonymous]

For what it's worth, I've seen some UP diesels rolling past within the past couple years where you had to do a double take to figure out the color was really yellow - they were an extremely dark grey due to dirt & grime (and no, they were not old SP units!).

Interesting info about the steam days that some of you posted above.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomikawaTT

So THAT's what happened to those cars that got soaked when the sulfuric acid tank let go...

The guy who bought them resold them for $10 a piece. Looking back, I'm just glad to have them out of my house.

QUOTE: Come on, folks! Even when the paint is faded out and failing, the reporting marks and required stenciling will be clean and fresh. If the local graffiti artist covers them, they will be repainted just as soon as a painter can get to them - not because it looks pretty, but because it's a legal requirement.

Hey man, gimme a break, I was underprepared and only, uh, trying to make a quick buck or two...

Point is, I've learned from my mistakes and don't unintentionally over-weather any more.


Matt

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Beowulf

Why are so many plastic cars modeled with "V' grove HORIZONTAL siding? On the prototype it was rare...

Really? So all those countless thousands and thousands of single-sheathed boxcars, composite gons, hoppers, and all the other rollingstock with horizontal siding were rare? You could have fooled me. [:)]

Cheers,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

I've been guilty of overweatherization on a couple of occasions - I still have the first two HO-Scale cars I tried to weather back in about 1972 - they are hideous and look more like they got dumped on by a slurry bomber carrying a load of mud - but I take them out whenever I get ready to weather a car/structure/whatever - they scream LIGHT AND CAUTIOUS at me and I may not be the greatest weathermeister in the hobby but my cars/structures/whatevers are far from the worst.

LIGHT AND CAUTIOUS. I learned the hard way that what goes on doesn't come off!!Once paint has obliterated logos or car data its gone.LIGHT AND CAUTIOUS

[Anonymous]

UPCSX I like that bottom hopper, looks like some of the private indusrial stuff setting around at the closed chemical plants here.

[Anonymous]

I have seen O ga engines, scale one, so rust painted they look orange like a pumpkin.

I dont think a railroad would let an engine get that rusty.

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BigRusty

Well Steve, you have hit the nail right smack dab on the head. In the heyday of steam and early diesels the railroads took pride in their fleets and kept them well maintained. Passenger trains were washed beween runs from the locomotive to the observation car. I was there then, so I ought to know. You don't attract passengers with dirty, dingy equipment. ....

BigRusty;

True, very true. My dad was a fireman for the SRR in the 1930's. Everyday he had to be at work prior to his train leaving, to hand poli***he engine. (His train was generally F-1 4-6-0 #949, and 3 coaches, as they called it the Turkeytown Express.) His crew would work for several hours polishing the engine to make it shine!

But he hated doing it and never saw much point in it. Depending on what the quality was of the coal the engine was supplied with and the amount/type of boiler compound mixed into the water for the locomotives, it could be a "clean" or a "dirty" ride. Depending on these and other environmental factors, (rain, sun, etc...) by the time the engine got from the roundhouse to the train pickup point to go to the depot, the top of the engine could/would be covered with soot and/or have a whiteish dusting of boiler compound. And by the end of the day, again depending on environmental factors, coal quality, boiler water conditioning, the loco could look like it had never been washed at all.

[jecorbett]

Anything can be over done but based on the pictures I have seen posted on this forum, this is not a problem with most modelers. I think it is far more common to see too little weathering or none at all. Without adequate weathering, a piece screams "I am made of plastic!!!".

I agree that for a realistic effect, the amount of weathering should vary from piece to piece, whether we are talking about locos, rolling stock, or structures. Railroad equipment would occasionally get fresh coats of paint or washed. The frequency would vary depending on circumstances. A struggling carrier might let maintenance slide while a prosperous class 1 railroad might go to great lengths to keep their equipment looking good.

The same approach should be taken with structures. Railroads would pass through old towns as well as new developments. Even an older part of town would occasionally see a new or freshly painted structure. An older neighborhood could be seedy and run down or it could be an area where the residents and businesses take pride in their community and keep things well maintained.

These are questions only a modeler can answer for his particular situation but should be given consideration. There is no one right way when it comes to weathering. Each modeler should ask themselves what is appropriate for their layout.

[Eddie_walters]

If you can get hold of it, I HIGHLY recommend the book "The Art of Weathering" by Martyn Welch. He gives an excellent guide to the techniques to produce an accurate, authentic weathering job.

It's a British book, but dirt is dirt ;)

[GearDrivenSteam]

You make a good point. I model a freelanced logging line. Through research, I've found that while logging was a dirty job, crews took pride in their work. Now, that said, there WERE certain locos that I don't think EVER got cleaned up. Maybe like critters and work locos and the like. But the main steamers that pulled the log loads on a regular basis were usually well taken care of. They had to be. ALthough there were some big logging outfits, most were small and not very well off, so they had to maintain what they had.

[beegle55]

I think most overweatherization is due to a bad airbrush or a bad point of view. Maybe some people try to imagine instead of taking examples from the real life thing, and even though we made fun over CSXR overweathering, some real life rolling stock looks the same way, even if it isn't in a roster and is just abandoned, those cars still had there place on the layout.

[Anonymous]

I have seen pictures of some of those communities during the peak of the steam era and the look pretty dull and dingy to me.  And while some railroads kept their passenger loco's and equipment reasonably clean most of the freight loco's and especially yard switchers became very dirty a short time out of the paint shops.

 

But to each his own and I find no more reason to criticize someone for creating a heavily weathered scene than someone who has a layout where everything is shiny and clean.

[Dave-the-Train]

The first problem is the pitfall of new modellers copying models that they have seen... so we end up modelling model RR not the real thing.  There then becomes an "orthodoxy" of what models should look like.

I tried to look at this subject in a previous thread about minimal weathering.  Except when fresh out of the box/works very few RR things are spotlessly clean.  Equally not everything is covered in crud and rusted.  As with most things what is needed is observation and balance.

What I try to do is find good, preferably colour, pics of my subject - the real thing - and work from there.

[Anonymous]

I think the Selios factor plays a part in a lot of peoples weathering,over saturation of his layout, his FSM structure kits portray the rundown look too much. FOS Scale and Downtown deco kits are following his lead, while real life isn't all pristine, it isn't all run down either. Rolling stock,on the other hand, depends on age and type of service. Ten year old boxcars won't look like two year old cars,but sometimes we err to the heavyside. Each era brings another spectrum of weathering, using real life as an example helps. Foilage even in the most run down areas is just as green as in the  park or country-side. Weathering should be specific to the time and place.

[jeffers_mz]

Buildings that are 100 years old today didn't look 100 years old when they were in use. Back then they were new, and even modern.

 

If you want to model filthy and extremely weathered, it's hard to go wrong, and get too much, on tank cars. I see a few shiny ones around from time to time, but most of the ones I see look like the sink in a downtown gas station restroom.

 

[Dave-the-Train]

Something else I thought of...

Especially in the steam era foliage was kept very much under control around rail tracks... this was to stop sparks from the locos starting fires which didn't respect the RR boundary and could cause massive compensation claims.

Foliage is also kept (now hacked) back to keep lines-of-sight clear: especially around signals and grade crossings.  Hedges used to be properly layed... now everything i just slashed with a mechanical flail on an on-track-machine.

 

I don't recall ever seeing either modelled specifically... nor have I seen areas of burnt grass or - the real horror - the swaith of nibbled down crop caused by lineside rabbits.  Rabbits were an important diet supplement to many railroaders and their families until Miximatosis was used as biological warfare.  "Mixy" rabbits look and are disgusting: I've never eaten rabbit since I first saw one.  Also of course, these days we just go to the out-of-town superstore.  Does this mean that US RR are like UK railways and have to control "vermin" that used to get trapped and eaten?

[boxcar_jim]

I think the Selios factor plays a part in a lot of peoples weathering,over saturation of his layout, his FSM structure kits portray the rundown look too much. FOS Scale and Downtown deco kits are following his lead, while real life isn't all pristine, it isn't all run down either. Rolling stock,on the other hand, depends on age and type of service. Ten year old boxcars won't look like two year old cars,but sometimes we err to the heavyside. Each era brings another spectrum of weathering, using real life as an example helps. Foilage even in the most run down areas is just as green as in the  park or country-side. Weathering should be specific to the time and place.

I agree with the "Selios factor" comment, but tend to disagree about Downtown Deco. FSM kits are a caricature of the depression years, its a certain look - but how accurate it is, that's entirely another question ....

Downtown Deco on the other hand are offering kits of stuff as it looks today (+/- 20yrs), Victorian and early C20th buildings which are nearing the end of their life. Go take a look at any big city just outside the main downtown area and you can find buildings like these - mixed in with newer offices, secondary shops, hotels and parking lots.

Something that hasn't been considered here is the miniaturisation factor, somehow shininess just doesn't look right in a model. Even if all you do is give something a coat of dull coat it just looks better, shiny models just seem to look toy like. 

To those who say no or extra light weathering is prototypical I suggest that they need to look again at photos of nearly new equipment and reassess just how much rail dust and exhaust / soot can accumulate in a couple of months of use. Even in the height of steam and passenger train era running gear was rusty / grimy even if the car sides were cleaned - look at the evidence in photos and film.

Like others here I don't find "over weartherisation" a significant problem, its usually the reverse.

[navygunner]

I agree that weathering can be overdone, particularly when applied to vegetation.  Rolling stock on the other hand has to be taken in context.  Provided are pictures taken last week in Easley, SC of an old fella parked on the siding downtown, (my favorite local loco) it has severe decay, but is reasonably clean.  This locomotive has been seen around the area for the past 2 or 3 years, always looking like the attached photos.  He drops rust on the tracks behind the house every time he passes.

 As some have said, a little research will provide reasonable reference points for almost any modeling project.

 

Cracked window and severely rusted roof.

Grafiti

Bowed stanchions and cracked window

Rust stains

Loose rust on catwalk, holes in steel

Missing light assemblies

The whole shebang.

Bob