It is better to have competition, as we frequently find out in the marketplace. It may not directly apply to this situation, but think of the cable TV industry. These guys have a legal monopoly on a desireable product, and the sky-high rates reflect their total disregard for the consumer. If we allow any commodity to be managed like this, the prices will reflect the lack of competition. As an example of the system working the other way, take a look at how cell phone rates have dropped as more and more providers compete for our services.
The old railroad "robber barons" of the 1800's understood how this works. First, you use your size to cut prices, sometimes below cost, and drive out the competition, even if you take a bit of a financial beating in the process. Then, once you've got all the business, you can charge whatever you want, and people have no choice if they want the product.
Besides, walking through the narrow aisles of a good LHS is so much better than a search engine...
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
nucat78 wrote: jecorbett wrote: brothaslide wrote: Support your local hobby shop? How about supporting American workers- Remember, most model railroad "stuff" is made in China these days. Why does anyone think a consumer owes anyone anything. I have no interest in keeping anyone in business or anyone in a job. I will spend my money where I get the best value, which may or may not be the best price. If the LHS wants my money, they need to take care of my concerns. If they can't compete on price, they better make up for in service or selection. If the day comes when there are no LHSes, it will be because consumers have decided that the e-tailers are giving them better value for their money. I agree 100%.
jecorbett wrote: brothaslide wrote: Support your local hobby shop? How about supporting American workers- Remember, most model railroad "stuff" is made in China these days. Why does anyone think a consumer owes anyone anything. I have no interest in keeping anyone in business or anyone in a job. I will spend my money where I get the best value, which may or may not be the best price. If the LHS wants my money, they need to take care of my concerns. If they can't compete on price, they better make up for in service or selection. If the day comes when there are no LHSes, it will be because consumers have decided that the e-tailers are giving them better value for their money.
brothaslide wrote: Support your local hobby shop? How about supporting American workers- Remember, most model railroad "stuff" is made in China these days.
Support your local hobby shop? How about supporting American workers- Remember, most model railroad "stuff" is made in China these days.
I agree 100%.
I will jump in on this one. I to support my LHS as much as I can because enevidably there is that one piece you need at 4 in the afternoon and they have it on there shelf.
But yes the swing in consumer spending has gone to the e-tailors. Main reason is you have a town of lets say 40,000. 10,000 people are into a hobby of some sort. For grins say that 2,500 people are into trains. Thats about 7% of the towns population. well say that 2,000 of those people have a computer and shop at an e-tailor for price. That leaves 500 for the real stores or a little more then 1 % of the town. No one can stay open on that so yes there prices are higher because they dont move the volume that the e-tailers can and do. But how many of you can call your local e-tailor and get decent customer service, or have them willing to answer a simple question on a product application? Not many I would be willing to bet. I havent done any e-tailoring with trains aside from www.nscalesupply.com . But I used to visit there store front as much as I could when it was open.
The E-talior will hurt all small business store fronts that dont have a web site or are un willing to get with the times. Un fortunitly we seem to be in a society today that wants it now and for free. The cost of living and inflation seems to me to be on its way to being out of control. I made 23,000 this year and am barily breaking even! Combined the wife and I will be around 40,000. This is a comfortiable living but we dont make enough to buy a decent house in colorado. But I dont mean complaine, I am very fortunite to do the things I do and have what I have.
And I agree with the 2 quotes above, I shop where I feel I get the most for my $$$ that includes parts and service. I will shop some place where I dont feel I am preasured into buying something everytime I walk in. I like the place where I can go spend an hour looking at things, talking to people, ask some questions have them answered and leave without buying anything. then come back a month later and drop $1,000 bucks in there lap because I wasn't preasured into buying anything when I was last there. Just my 2 cents.
Curt
I buy some at our local but engines no way. As far as getting a bad one I only buy new ones online or a reputable seller. Our local shops usually have only one of each top end engine if any. Sorry but they want full or darn near manufacturer price. If they want my business they need to cut their prices a bit . If you're buying new it makes no sense to pay a guy almost twice the price.
cacole wrote:We've had 2 LHS in the area over the past 10 years and both have gone under because there's not enough interest in trains to keep them in business. In a town of an estimated 40,000 residents we can barely keep 15 members interested in belonging to our club even though we have a fully operational 20x40 foot HO scale layout and are in the process of constructing N-scale. .
Wow! I'd be there every chance I had (hmmm, retirement isn't *that* far away and I like the SW). I'm curious why the members aren't interested. Is it because of other commitments, personality conflicts, or ???
Am I supporting my local hobby shop(s)? Funny, I don't recall any of them registering as a charitable NPO (non-profit organization). So if I support them, can I claim it on my taxes?
Kidding aside, I think that jecorbett put it best:
jecorbett wrote:Why does anyone think a consumer owes anyone anything. I have no interest in keeping anyone in business or anyone in a job. I will spend my money where I get the best value, which may or may not be the best price. If the LHS wants my money, they need to take care of my concerns. If they can't compete on price, they better make up for in service or selection. If the day comes when there are no LHSes, it will be because consumers have decided that the e-tailers are giving them better value for their money.
I as well buy used stuff off E-bay, I like to tinker as well. But I make up for it at the LHS by buying Proto wheels and Kadee's couplers. I all so will not pay over $50.00 on E-bay. Reason if there is a problem I like K-10 Trains on hand support. Case in point, last week I bought my first BL 1 Class J 4-8-4 with soundand cost me $320.00. After 3 hours of run time some stripped out in the engine! On the internet I would have had to send it back to BL and waite 4-6 weeks for repairs, but being from K-10 Train I went over on my luch break and picked up a new one.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Metro Red Line wrote: However, in this WallmartStarbucksHomeDepot world, I do like to stick up for the small business owners, especially the ones who are in their business primarily For The Love Of It, and in the newest store in town, I made sure to establish a good rapport with the guy who runs it. I bought a few bundles of flextrack from him, when I could have saved a few bucks by getting it online, but like me' he's an N-scaler and he gave me some good advice, helpful techniques and nice conversation.
However, in this WallmartStarbucksHomeDepot world, I do like to stick up for the small business owners, especially the ones who are in their business primarily For The Love Of It, and in the newest store in town, I made sure to establish a good rapport with the guy who runs it. I bought a few bundles of flextrack from him, when I could have saved a few bucks by getting it online, but like me' he's an N-scaler and he gave me some good advice, helpful techniques and nice conversation.
Nobody is in business primarily for the love of it. If they are, they won't be in business long unless they have very deep pockets. The primary purpose of any business is to make money. Certainly a lot of LHS owners got into this business because they also have a love of the hobby, but if they don't earn enough to pay the bills, they will be looking for a new line of work. And as I have said before, I don't buy from someone because I am interested in keeping them in business. I buy from them because they give me good value for my money. If I had a choice between buying from some guy who loved the hobby but wanted a higher price than another guy who was in it only for the money, I'd choose the latter.
I guess it's all relative anyway. Here in the Los Angeles area, there are about 15 LHSes within a 40-mile radius. I go to 5-6 of them on a regular basis. At least three of those 15 stores discount, and a few of the ones that don't, occasionally have special sale items. None of them is the perfect store, there's always one that's lacking something the other has. I perfectly understand (well no, but I empathize) with those that have just one store (perhaps a Hobbytown that's got more going in the R/C cars department), or none in the local area. But then again mail-order houses have been advertising in magazines for years. Of course, there's eBay now, and who's one to pass a good deal? I'm in N scale now and I've yet to pay more than $65 for a locomotive.
I guess I am lucky. I can support two LHS and the Internet. Both shops give discounts and one sometimes gives better prices than the web. I do shop around, but most of my money goes to the LHS at very competive prices. Lucky I guess.
Some of our "Other" purchases support the hobby. That sheet of plywood or tools you purchased at Lowes or Home Depot or similar might be destined for a model railroad project.
Unlike a lot of our other purchases (Sears, Amazon, etc) I buy all my MR items from hobby shops or at shows.My main source is done via e-mail. I can look at his web site and see what he has, then drop off a quick e-mail and in 3 days its here with no hassle with customs and cheaper shipping. I feel it balances out the cheaper prices from the US internet sites. I have been burned on so called deals from the US when they cross the line and duty/brokerage fees are more than what the savings were, let alone the dollar difference.
Forgot to mention the closest hobby shop is 100km away. The one I deal with is about 300km.
So, to answer the question as posed, no I do not support a LOCAL hobby shop because there is no local hobby shop to support.
MidlandPacific wrote: I try to, but frankly, it's a losing battle for everything but the odd impulse buy. Too often, I go in and ask about something that's not in plain sight, and hear "no, don't have it, but we can get it from Walthers." Well, yes - so can I. And I won't have to make time to drive to the shop to pick it up.Even impulse buying is hard - I can remember in the 1970s how you often had to have a sort of shortage mentality: "it may not be exactly what I want (specific model/color/road name, etc), but who knows when they'll have that?" Nowadays, of course, there are so many people catering to you on the Internet that it's not hard to find the item you want - and that even goes for brass. Anyone else remember when you just sort of had to build up a knowledge of good dealers and get on their mailing list - and buy that odd piece when it popped up, regardless of condition? The smarter places like M.B. Klein seem to have discovered that the brick-and-mortar business and the mail-order business are entirely compatible. I bet in a couple of cases - M.B. Klein, Caboose Hobbies, and the Whistle Stop in Pasadena - the mail-order stuff may even be effectively subsidizing the conventional hobby shop.
I try to, but frankly, it's a losing battle for everything but the odd impulse buy. Too often, I go in and ask about something that's not in plain sight, and hear "no, don't have it, but we can get it from Walthers." Well, yes - so can I. And I won't have to make time to drive to the shop to pick it up.
Even impulse buying is hard - I can remember in the 1970s how you often had to have a sort of shortage mentality: "it may not be exactly what I want (specific model/color/road name, etc), but who knows when they'll have that?" Nowadays, of course, there are so many people catering to you on the Internet that it's not hard to find the item you want - and that even goes for brass. Anyone else remember when you just sort of had to build up a knowledge of good dealers and get on their mailing list - and buy that odd piece when it popped up, regardless of condition?
The smarter places like M.B. Klein seem to have discovered that the brick-and-mortar business and the mail-order business are entirely compatible. I bet in a couple of cases - M.B. Klein, Caboose Hobbies, and the Whistle Stop in Pasadena - the mail-order stuff may even be effectively subsidizing the conventional hobby shop.
Exactly. Any LHS that doesn't have a web option for customers is just begging to be put out of business.
Whether that's "right" or not is not relevant. It's the way it is. Adapt or go the way of the dinosaur.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
I support my LHS, though Joe's is not so local, 30 mile one way, but we stop most every time we're over that way.
Great place, and they have so much stock, there's not much room to walk around the place. They have mostly lionel, HO,N gage and RC places and cars, and if they don't have what your wanting, they can get it in a week or less. For a couple-3 bucks more [like in my case] will mail it to you. Good prices on what they have in stock.
inch
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
MisterBeasley wrote: Over the past few months, since this topic's first time around, I've made the concious decision to minimize my on-line buying. My first option will be to support my LHS, because I get good service, expert advice and a small discount on everything. He will also order anything I want, and it takes no longer to do that than to buy it online. And yes, I do know I'm very lucky to have a shop like this only one town over.I also go to shows, where I'll typically pick up small items. I'm in the scenery stage now, anyway, so most of my purchases are bits and pieces. Nice to find an old caboose for 3 bucks, too. Most of the vendors at shows are small business people anyway, so I have no problem supporting them.
Over the past few months, since this topic's first time around, I've made the concious decision to minimize my on-line buying. My first option will be to support my LHS, because I get good service, expert advice and a small discount on everything. He will also order anything I want, and it takes no longer to do that than to buy it online. And yes, I do know I'm very lucky to have a shop like this only one town over.
I also go to shows, where I'll typically pick up small items. I'm in the scenery stage now, anyway, so most of my purchases are bits and pieces. Nice to find an old caboose for 3 bucks, too. Most of the vendors at shows are small business people anyway, so I have no problem supporting them.
I continue to buy both online and at my LHS but it has nothing to do with my desire to support either. It has to do with what is in my best interest as a consumer. I owe nothing to either type of retailer. When I buy an expensive sound equipped loco, I usually buy online because of a significant price differential but on occasions, my LHS will have an item on sale that is at or below online prices. On the other hand, I find at times I need something, such as a turnout for example, and I don't want to hold up progress on my layout waiting for a delivery and I know I can get it today at my LHS. Whichever best serves my interest will get my business. That is how a free market works. Both the businessman and the consumer are acting int their own self interest. My interest is in getting the best value for my money, not keeping someone in business. The seller, whether it is the LHS or the e-tailer, wants my money. He has no interest in whether I complete my layout or not. But the result is that by looking out for our own interests, we end up taking care of the others interest.
I don't know whether the LHS will survive in the long run when in competition with the e-tailers. If they don't, it will be because we as consumers have made the decision that the e-tailers are better serving our interests. It used to be that there was a Ma & Pa grocery store and corner drug store in just about every neighborhood. Few have survived because consumers decided that it was in their interest to take their business to the large chain stores. The same thing may happen with the LHS. The ones that do survive will be the ones that can offer us something the e-tailers can't.
Metro Red Line wrote:If your LHS discounts, by all means support them. If they don't, then feel free to buy online.
I do get a discount, but still pay more than what I would online in some cases. I feel it worth paying the extra little bit for the local support from guys that know what they are talking about, and are always more than willing to help. They have repaired a pair of trucks for a brass passenger car free of charge for me, and I didn't even purchase the car from them. I was all set to purchase a bunch of Micro Engineering flex from them, and the owner actually talked me into purchasing the cheaper Atlas code 83. He lost money on that, but I respect the fact that he had integrity enough to sell me something that was easier to work with based on his experience.
This is of course a situation where I have a great local train shop, and not just a Hobbytown in a strip mall staffed by folks that don't have a lot of experience in model railroading. If that was the case, I would definately do a lot of online shopping.
I would rather not, the two we have really are poorly stocked and have almost no knowledge of trains. I get about 90% of my stuff off the web.
Peter
I do like to go into a shop that knows what they are selling. I have been in many that just don't know the latest news. This is especially anoying when it comes to DCC. I live in the Inland Empire/ Riverside San Bernardino and two shops that were out here have closed and the third shop cannot decide what DCC company to support, the good thing about this particular shop is they don't really know that they have very good prices on some hard to find items.
It seems to me that the shops that are located in the more upscale areas fair well, but the prices are usually MRP. I have been in a few of these shops and they do have regulars that call up to veryfy and order items. They know many by first names. They usually are very helpfull and are open to new items to put on the shelves. I have actually expressed interest in a particular item they knew nothing about but they wanted to learn about it ASAP.
I do order online and I do support local shops, but remember this is a hobby that has a back seat to many things for most people and the industry knows this. Therefor they must find ways to stay profitable. Support seems to be the main theme in todays arena, and thats where I go.
John
The model railroad industry is such a miniscule part of the economy that its impact is essentially non-existent.
Are we to avoid purchasing anything because it's not made here? My Craftsman cordless drill was made in China, as was my Black and Decker single cup coffee maker. So's my Craftsman circular saw. Ironically, nearly 30 years ago, I bought a Sharp (Japanese) color TV. It was made in Taiwan.
OTOH, my Toyota Camry was built in the U.S., yet I remember seeing a Ford Escort at a Ford dealer that was built in Mexico.
I recently wired a garage. The sockets and switches were assembled in Mexico from US made parts.
Get used to it.
In any case, where it's built is not going to stop people from whining that model railroad prices are too high.
As for my "local" hobby shop, it's 75 miles away. I do support them. 'Course the Lionel Fasttrack I bought recently to add to a Thomas set for the grandkids was made in China, as was the Thomas set itself.
Andre
LOL... like everything, moderation is the key...
Much like many others, I buy from Ebay and online retailers. But, as said often before, I have learned buyer beware....
That being said, I have probably bought the back wall or my local hobby shop (ok, maybe not THAT much, but at least paid his rent for a month!!!). Anyways, I like supporting my local hobby shop(s), but sometimes they don't have the selection or I find an unbeatable price. BUT, when I have to order things (paint, plastic, balsa, etc.). I order from my LHS... many times I stroll in and purchase a nice piece of rolling stock on sale as well.
But like anything, a little of both works for me. Balance is the key. Sure, we don't "OWE" anything to anyone... but if we all are so narcissistic, it would be a pretty crappy world to live in, eh? My 2 cents...
Brian
I missed this thread the first time around so now that it has been resurrected, I will throw in my 2 cents worth. Why does anyone think a consumer owes anyone anything. I have no interest in keeping anyone in business or anyone in a job. I will spend my money where I get the best value, which may or may not be the best price. If the LHS wants my money, they need to take care of my concerns. If they can't compete on price, they better make up for in service or selection. If the day comes when there are no LHSes, it will be because consumers have decided that the e-tailers are giving them better value for their money.