MTH K4 video at MR

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dude3

Will standard DCC work on this loco or do you have to buy dcs to run it.

If you're talking about the Hornby live steamer, it takes a special controller. It's not compatable with DC, DCC or any other common model train control system.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dude3

Will standard DCC work on this loco or do you have to buy dcs to run it.

According to the review, ithe MTH K4 will run under standard DCC, but several of the CV's are not identical to the standard we are used to.

Again, according to the review, It wil run under DCC, DCS or DC, but it is limited to 36 scale miles per hour on DC unless you increase you track voltage to 24Vdc, and fry everything else.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The smoke is fantastic. That K4 is one fine engine that certainly raises the bar. Maybe a Big Boy and Shay are next (HINT HINT).[swg]

A sound equipped Shay, maybe, but another Big Boy?

Tell Mike Wolf to get his act together. We need another Big Boy a whole lot less than we needed another PRR K-4. And we definitely don't need another [censored] K-4.

MTH wants to pu***he envelope? Do a Southern Pacific TW-8 4-8-0. Do a Santa Fe 3450 class 4-6-4 or a 3400 class 4-6-2, both as originally built and as modernized. Do a Erie K-5 in its final form. Do something that hasn't already been done to death.

How about a Santa Fe 1050 class 2-6-2,? There's a lot of Santa Fe fans out there. A 1050 would sell like hot cakes.

Don't like that idea? Then build a C&O F-17 4-6-2. Or a Southern Ps-4 (not a copy of the PFM version, but the earlier Ps-4 with the short tender and Worthington BL feedwater heater). Do an SP MT-4 4-8-2 with several tender variations. Do a Missouri Pacific MT-75 4-8-2 or a GN O-8 2-8-2.

Just do something DIFFERENT. [sigh]

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The smoke is fantastic. That K4 is one fine engine that certainly raises the bar. Maybe a Big Boy and Shay are next (HINT HINT).[swg]

A sound equipped Shay, maybe, but another Big Boy?

Tell Mike Wolf to get his act together. We need another Big Boy a whole lot less than we needed another PRR K-4. And we definitely don't need another [censored] K-4.

MTH wants to pu***he envelope? Do a Southern Pacific TW-8 4-8-0. Do a Santa Fe 3450 class 4-6-4 or a 3400 class 4-6-2, both as originally built and as modernized. Do a Erie K-5 in its final form. Do something that hasn't already been done to death.

How about a Santa Fe 1050 class 2-6-2,? There's a lot of Santa Fe fans out there. A 1050 would sell like hot cakes.

Don't like that idea? Then build a C&O F-17 4-6-2. Or a Southern Ps-4 (not a copy of the PFM version, but the earlier Ps-4 with the short tender and Worthington BL feedwater heater). Do an SP MT-4 4-8-2 with several tender variations. Do a Missouri Pacific MT-75 4-8-2 or a GN O-8 2-8-2.

Just do something DIFFERENT. [sigh]

Andre

I agree that any of the engines you have listed would probably sell fairly well. It seems most of the importers are playing it safe and only offering models that have a track record already established.

I thought PCM bringing in the Reading T1 might break the ice and get some more new models coming in. Certainly the GS4 and train will be a welcome model along with the PRR I1 2-10-0 for PRR fans. Who is going to bring us the PRR Q2 in plastic or die cast??

Now for the NP Z8 and A 3, A4 and the A5 in plastic. Make my A 4 in gray.

If you don't mind, send your list to BLI, PCM, Proto and anyone who has email. You never know, they might just consider one of them.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The smoke is fantastic.

- Really How? Did it smell like cherry, orange or "Triple Tuti-Fruity"? Was the smoke cloud whispy or thick?

QUOTE: That K4 is one fine engine that certainly raises the bar.

Really? Which bar? In which area did you observe that it was raised in? Oh, what you're saying is that you saw it and test ran it already? [:p] When? Any photos? Did the sales rep hand you a throttle and tell you "O.K! Make it go!" Cool! [8D] Well then, what did you think of the detailing and its performance?

Hmmmm. The tenacity of Obsessive Compulsives.....most interesting ......[zzz][zzz][:-^][:-^][zzz][zzz][zzz]

[dinwitty]

I will throw a smoke unit into my BLI 2-6-6-4. take a video with sound and blast away the K4.....8-P

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

The smoke is fantastic. That K4 is one fine engine that certainly raises the bar. Maybe a Big Boy and Shay are next (HINT HINT).[swg]

A sound equipped Shay, maybe, but another Big Boy?

Tell Mike Wolf to get his act together. We need another Big Boy a whole lot less than we needed another PRR K-4. And we definitely don't need another [censored] K-4.

MTH wants to pu***he envelope? Do a Southern Pacific TW-8 4-8-0. Do a Santa Fe 3450 class 4-6-4 or a 3400 class 4-6-2, both as originally built and as modernized. Do a Erie K-5 in its final form. Do something that hasn't already been done to death.

How about a Santa Fe 1050 class 2-6-2,? There's a lot of Santa Fe fans out there. A 1050 would sell like hot cakes.

Don't like that idea? Then build a C&O F-17 4-6-2. Or a Southern Ps-4 (not a copy of the PFM version, but the earlier Ps-4 with the short tender and Worthington BL feedwater heater). Do an SP MT-4 4-8-2 with several tender variations. Do a Missouri Pacific MT-75 4-8-2 or a GN O-8 2-8-2.

Just do something DIFFERENT. [sigh]

Andre

I agree that any of the engines you have listed would probably sell fairly well. It seems most of the importers are playing it safe and only offering models that have a track record already established.

I thought PCM bringing in the Reading T1 might break the ice and get some more new models coming in. Certainly the GS4 and train will be a welcome model along with the PRR I1 2-10-0 for PRR fans. Who is going to bring us the PRR Q2 in plastic or die cast??

Now for the NP Z8 and A 3, A4 and the A5 in plastic. Make my A 4 in gray.

If you don't mind, send your list to BLI, PCM, Proto and anyone who has email. You never know, they might just consider one of them.

I'll bet you wouldn't mind if they did a Q-6 4-6-2, a W-5 2-8-2, or a T-1 2-6-2.

Maybe even an X 4-8-0? I think they could probably use a lot of the same tooling as for an SP TW-8 4-8-0. They even look a lot alike.

Andre

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1

I agree that any of the engines you have listed would probably sell fairly well. It seems most of the importers are playing it safe and only offering models that have a track record already established.

I thought PCM bringing in the Reading T1 might break the ice and get some more new models coming in. Certainly the GS4 and train will be a welcome model along with the PRR I1 2-10-0 for PRR fans. Who is going to bring us the PRR Q2 in plastic or die cast??

Now for the NP Z8 and A 3, A4 and the A5 in plastic. Make my A 4 in gray.

If you don't mind, send your list to BLI, PCM, Proto and anyone who has email. You never know, they might just consider one of them.

I'll bet you wouldn't mind if they did a Q-6 4-6-2, a W-5 2-8-2, or a T-1 2-6-2.

Maybe even an X 4-8-0? I think they could probably use a lot of the same tooling as for an SP TW-8 4-8-0. They even look a lot alike.

Andre

[dave hikel]

dude3,

If your were asking about the MTH K4, no you don't have to buy DCS, it will run in standard DCC with most of the same abilities as DCS.

One thing I've seen is several threads (including this one) is that the word isn't getting around about the tests of the K4 on DC. MTH is claiming on their website that the speeds listed in the MR review are incorrect. According to MTH the K4 will do 75 smph at 16 volts. They do not offer an explanation for MR's numbers, only that they have tested several locomotives since reading the review and could not duplicate MR's results.

On the issue of smoke, the O gauge units that MTH offers put out an impressive, turbulant blast at low speeds. They also put out thicker exhaust when the labored chuffing sounds are engaged. Don't be too concerned with the residue from the smoke fluid. The build up of dust is a far bigger problem. The only noticeable build-up of residue is around the stack. The biggest problem with the smoke fluid comes from over filling. This WILL cause real problems from raw fluid wicking down the inside of your locomotive and cause slipping. If you use a small funnel for adding fluid and you only add a few drops at a time everthing is fine.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: In my opinion, the smoke feature on the MTH K-4 only serves to liken it to the 1950's Lionel tinplate locomotives and totally detracts from any sense of the modeled reality most HO hobbyists strive for...utterly toy-like and hopefully a feature that will be avoided in future high-end HO products. What's next from MTH...little stock cars filled with HO rubber cattle that parade on and off into pens? You ain't dealing with the vintage tinplate crowd here, Mike!

CNJ831

LMAO!!!!

[SPFan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

In my opinion, the smoke feature on the MTH K-4 only serves to liken it to the 1950's Lionel tinplate locomotives and totally detracts from any sense of the modeled reality most HO hobbyists strive for..
CNJ831

Actually that "reality" is more like an episode of the Twilight Zone. Only the protagonist and the trains move though a space filled with frozen people, cars, animals, and machines. Admittedly, while most of the 3 rail animation is crude, it does make for a more interesting layout to watch. How many here try to make at least a few things besides the trains move?

Pete

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave hikel
On the issue of smoke, the O gauge units that MTH offers put out an impressive, turbulant blast at low speeds. They also put out thicker exhaust when the labored chuffing sounds are engaged. Don't be too concerned with the residue from the smoke fluid. The build up of dust is a far bigger problem. The only noticeable build-up of residue is around the stack. The biggest problem with the smoke fluid comes from over filling. This WILL cause real problems from raw fluid wicking down the inside of your locomotive and cause slipping. If you use a small funnel for adding fluid and you only add a few drops at a time everthing is fine.

Sorry, Dave, I beg to differ with you. If oil is used in the smoke unit and is "vaporized" or becomes air borne (like water does from a real boiler), tiny particles of oil will be dispersed into the air and eventually settle over and on top of everything in the immediate area. The dust that you claim is "a far bigger problem" will combine with the oil particles in the air and make routine cleaning even MORE difficult.

Smoke units always have been and always will be a novelty at best. The so-called dividends (or more correctly, repercussions) of a smoke unit are not worth the aggravation. My Trix Mikado came already wired for a smoke unit - and that's exactly how it's going to stay.

Tom

[3railguy]

Tom is right. Being a 3 rail O gauger (as well as N scaler) I can attest to what he is saying. Everthing gets a settlng of dust. Esecially with something like an MTH DL-109/110 set....they fill the room so thick, you gag and can barely see your controller.....LMAO.....Dirty track is not a concern with O gauge. O gauge trains are heavy enough and draw enough amperage that they litterally arc burn the dusting off the track. Not so with HO and N scales. The residue stops trains dead in their tracks. Which is why I believe smoke units have never been popular in HO.

Now if someone were to figure out how to make the smoke black, along with shooting flames out of a clapped out Alco with beer fart sounds and all, I could go for something like that.

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy


Now if someone were to figure out how to make the smoke black, along with shooting flames out of a clapped out Alco with beer fart soundsand all, I could go for something like that.

3railguy,

The beer driven sounds could probably be downloaded from the soundtrack of "Blazing Saddles", specifically the scene around the campfire. Although the sounds are driven by a consummable other than beer they might suffice. [;)]


Jon [:D]

[Darth Santa Fe]

Talking about smoke; I put regular water in a Bachmann smoke unit once and it sort of worked.[:D] I could see a fine mist of steam coming out of the smoke unit, and it lasted for about 5 minutes, and that's with just a little water! The only problem is it would occasionally spew a couple droplets out, but that could probably be fixed with more heat. Maybe some sort of water heating technology could be used in the future. It would definately be less messy than oil.[:D]

If MTH releases another Big Boy, can it be an affordable Big Boy for a change? People like me can't afford high quality state-of-the-art $700 steam engines. So far, Rivarossi has made the only running Big Boys that are even close to affordable.

[MidlandPacific]

QUOTE: Talking about smoke; I put regular water in a Bachmann smoke unit once and it sort of worked. I could see a fine mist of steam coming out of the smoke unit, and it lasted for about 5 minutes, and that's with just a little water!

Very prototypical: I can remember standing next to 487 on the C&TS a few years ago at Antonito and feeling the water precipitating out into the air from the numerous steam leaks. You hear of a similar phenomenon with Mallets sometimes - there's a story in "NP Classic Steam Era" about some yard jokers pulling out umbrellas when a Z-3 rolled out of town.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe

Talking about smoke; I put regular water in a Bachmann smoke unit once and it sort of worked.[:D] I could see a fine mist of steam coming out of the smoke unit, and it lasted for about 5 minutes, and that's with just a little water! The only problem is it would occasionally spew a couple droplets out, but that could probably be fixed with more heat. Maybe some sort of water heating technology could be used in the future. It would definately be less messy than oil.[:D]

If MTH releases another Big Boy, can it be an affordable Big Boy for a change? People like me can't afford high quality state-of-the-art $700 steam engines. So far, Rivarossi has made the only running Big Boys that are even close to affordable.

The new to be released Geneis Big Boy has been priced at about three hundred at many shops if you reserve it now. It should run at least as good as the Challenger, which is great and be detailed much better than the Rivarossi or PCM/Trix.

[ModelTrainman]

i like it!

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jondrd

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy


Now if someone were to figure out how to make the smoke black, along with shooting flames out of a clapped out Alco with beer fart soundsand all, I could go for something like that.

3railguy,

The beer driven sounds could probably be downloaded from the soundtrack of "Blazing Saddles", specifically the scene around the campfire. Although the sounds are driven by a consummable other than beer they might suffice. [;)]


Jon [:D]

Jon,

Maybe the soundtrack from Pentrex Michigan Ore Lines shot in the late 80's. Yep, three gators aged to perfection lashed up pulling ore gennies up a grade. Spewing black smoke, shooting flame and beer farts. It's quite a sight let me tell you.

[dave hikel]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Tom. If you don't like smoke that's fine. But since you have such a strong opinion I'm curious what your experince has been with smoke units.

I agree that the mechanical puffing smoke units used in O gauge in the 50's and 60's were not at all realistic, and the percalator types seen in most HO applications today create as much splatter as smoke. If your experience with smoke has mostly been with these types of units I can understand your perspective, but the fan driven smoke units that MTH uses are a whole different animal. The MTH design uses a fiberglass wick held between two resistors inside a metal "smoke box." The smoke is forced out the stack by a motor driven fan that is controled by the electronics. When staring out the fan motor pauses between each chuff, allowing the smoke to build up inside the smoke box. With the next chuff there is a timed blast of smoke that is suprisingly thick and terbulant. The video clip that started this thread dosen't show any running at 3or 4 smph, and this where the system really shines.

I understand your concern about the vapor settling on everything (what goes up most come down). As John Long mentioned these MTH smoke units can drive you out of the room. But, in my experince the vapor is so thin that there is no noticeable build-up. I've built several layouts in the Seattle area for various cliants (I'm a full time layout builder), some of whom love to run the smoke full blast. After years of running on a regular basis there just isn't an oily build-up on trackside scenery or structures, and any on the track would have been wiped away long ago by good track maintainance.

[tstage]

Dave,

The culmination of my experience would be with the smoke units in American Flyer locomotives back in the sixties. (Yea, it was kinda cool back then as a kid.) I will grant you that the MR video clip of the MTH K4 with the puffs synchronized with the chuffs was definitely an improvement over that older technology. I will be curious to see how popular the smoke units are with this locomotive and whether or not the aforementioned apprehensions with the smoke "fallout" are a deterrent to the public using it on a regular basis.

Having worked around vacuum pumps in my employment experience, even the best units with "filters" after a while will still leave a thin coating of oily mist on the outside of the vacuum motor. I don't think the MTH K4s are going to have built-in "filters" so my conclusions are also based upon that.

Dave, you mentioned that you are a full-time layout builder. Do you deal in all scales are do you primarily work in O-scale? I'm just curious about what your experiences have been with HO-scale smoke units. I trust that's a legitimate question to "volley back into your court". [:)]

Tom

[Don Gibson]

MTH seems to be using a 24v system . Perhap that is why they max out at a scale 37 MPH @12 volts?

Boiling water for steam use more amperage than most MRC pak's deliver.

The black stuff in smoke is soot.

Be careful what you wish for!

[davekelly]

Is there a guy alive that doesn't appreciate the campfire scene in Blazing Saddles?

Is there a guy alive who's female significant other thinks it's gross, but only when there's company around - in private she laughs just as hard?

Back to the topic.

The smoke unit on the K4 is different indeed from the smoke units of "way back when." While the smoke does nothing for me personally (meaning I'd rather save 20 or so bucks and get the engine without smoke if the option is available) I can see where some people would think it's cool. Just as some folks are head over heels in love with sound (that would be me) and others see it as a gimmick that would get old quickly - such things are very subjective in nature. This is why the move to offer locomotives in sound and no sound options is great - it allows more people to get what they want and not have to pay for things they don't want.

While I do concur that there are several technological obstacles in making a realistic looking smoke unit for HO as well as practical problems (the residue debate) I have learned that as far as technology is concerned to never say never. I can't imagine what my dad would think if he were alive today and saw my BLI Mike go through it's paces. Electronic wizard that he was I don't think he ever thought DCC and sound would ever make it in the HO world - not to even mention N.

I do, however, wonder why MTH did up the K4 in such a way that it doesn't perform as well on DC given the voltage thingie. Did perhaps MTH assume that those that would buy their K4 would not have DC layouts? It would be interesting to see how well this unit sells. More interesting would be to see MTH's second HO offering. The differences between that and the K4, I would think, would show the preferences of at least a good size chunk of the hobby.

[dave hikel]

I do work in all scales, Tom. About 70% of my business is in O gauge (both 3-rail and 2-rail) but I have built, modified and or serviced layouts in N, HO, S, G, and pre-war Standard gauge.

As you can see I'm new to posting on this forum, but I'm going to give it a shot at posting a pic from an outdoor O gauge layout I built in 2004.



Your looking at a DM&IR yellowstone pulling 36 ore hoppers. Personally, I think the smoke adds a lot to the scene.

[davekelly]

Cool pic! How long did it take to construct that bridge? I have to admit, although I'm not a fan of smoking engines (I've never smoked an engine), it does look pretty cool.

Just a thought. You can't scale down steam or coal exhaust in such a way that it would look prototypical, but in some smaller scale. Or at least that's what my Fluid Flow III professor taught us way back in my senior year of undergrad work. But what if we simulated smoke in some other way? Perhaps somesort of holeographic (sp?) projection that used a digitally recorded image? (Kinda like you can't scale down an air horn and have it sound right by pushing air through it, so we use digital sound bites). Or the gaseous form of some as of now unknown compound? Sure, the technology isn't here now, but how many folks in the 70's would have believed it if you told them a 1 inch speaker and this little piece of circuitboard with these thingies soldered to it would sound like they do now?

[3railguy]

Dave, great work. Love the ore train. What track did you use for outdoors?

[Anonymous]

The scene is great and the simulated smoke does add to the picture.

[tstage]

Dave,

Thanks for posting the pic! Nice work - especially the bridge. [:)][tup]

As you have correctly surmised, I'm not a great smoke fan. But for a locomotive running in the outdoors, the smoke would indeed enhance the realism. At least outdoors, the oily mist would be more apt to dissipate elsewhere.

Dave, how long have you been doing layout building as a business?

Tom

[dave hikel]

Thanks guys,

The track is stainless gargraves with plastic ties. The trestle was constructed of HEAVILY modified bents from "Scenic Gems", and treated with Jasco Termin8 which not only gives the dark color but even smells like cerasote on hot days. Modification of the preassembled bents took two days, preping the ground took one day, and assembly took three days.

The layout has a full double track mainline 230ft. in length with min. 10ft. radius curves. The ruling grade is 2.2% (the trestle is descending in grade from left to right in the photo). There is also a reversing wye and branch line which lead to an indoor yard in my client's garage. All of this gentleman's engines are MTH and are run using the DCS system (MTH's proprietary command control system).

[PennsyHoosier]

QUOTE: Who is going to bring us the PRR Q2 in plastic or die cast??

Amen! We already have K4s and T1. Let's have someone step out and do something really interesting.