New QSI upgrade chip - 6/30 update

[rexhea]

Tom, I have to agree that your problems seem to be more of a home DCC problem and specificaly, programming.

Have you compared programming in Ops mode to Service mode to see if you get better results, i.e. CV's in Ops and then in Service? (Ops is convenient, but not always reliable)

Do you have a booster on your programming track? (I was able to program all QSI's with my Digitrax Chief 8, but when I got my Tsunami's I had to get a booster.)

I wouldn't compare your old chip with the new as the internal designs may be different and the new may require a higher power level for programming than your system is producing. How is your track voltage level? I run at 14 volts.

Also: The ver. 3 manual states that the default for CV2 is 32, but may be different for different engines. I wouldn't worry about that as you will adjust for the best operation of your engine anyway.

The reason you can't hear the speed readout very well for F10 is the function only lowers the other sounds by half. If you are using high volume, then it will cover up the most of the readout volume which is set.

Just some thoughts.
REX

[scubaterry]

Tom - When I put my upgrade in the Hudson I had to prog the four digit address and CV2 was in fact 8. I have no idea how the chip knew your loco number unless Tony's or who ever you got it from programmed it for you????? I am not aware of any RAM. that would be an great ? to ask the QSI folks. It didn't seem to work that way with me. Of course come to think of it I never even tried to call up the four digit addtess after upgrading I just assumed and prog it to four digit. It may have all ready been done??

I am confused with your F10 statements. If I hit F10 with the loco in neutral it reads out the id # of the loco and if it is in standby, shutdown etc. When moving fwd or rev F10 reads out scale speed/ you mention changing speed with F10?? Is there something I am not reading in the manual or something?

Hey check out my new thread on putting a Tsunami and a Digitraxx decoder in my Bowser Loco. Maybe you can help sort out the potential problems.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Tom - Are you saying when you change CV2 it defaults to 35 or was at 35 out of the box when default is supposed to be 8?

Terry,

The replacement upgrade chip for my Mike was already "programmed" to my original locomotive number when I first installed it. So I pulled it out this morning and will try again to program it tonight. I'm hoping that this will start things out on a clean slate.

I didn't get the initial 3 toots when I placed the Mike on the programming track last night but the Power Cab had no problems reading the decoder. Apart from the chip, does the decoder have any RAM that stores CV information? Why wouldn't an installed chip not start up with an address of "3"?

QUOTE:
Well in light of your report I'm thinking at least to a small degree the chip is having issues with your DCC system?

I'm thinking along those lines myself but still want to make a thorough investigation before going back to either Tony's or NCE about the issue(s).

QUOTE:
The F10 thing as an example and not being able to manipulate CV2??

I'm wouldn't think so. I'll have to wait and see after a reinstall the replacement chip back into the Mike tonight.

QUOTE:
Do you have a club or neighbor with a diferent DCC system you can try?

No, unfortunately not. Maybe I'll post a request on the forum to see if someone in my area would be willing to allow me to come over and try out the upgrade chip on their DCC layout.

QUOTE:
Did I read it write in that the low speed problem has been fixed?
Terry[8D]

I'm not entirely sure because CV2 was set at "35" after I installed the replacement chip. (Again, the replacement upgrade chip seemed to take on the inputs of the first upgrade chip.) In hindsight, the only for sure so far is that the F10 issue was resolved and I was able to increase and decrease the speed after pushing it.

Tom

---

And stay close to your dials, kids, for the next exciting installment of the continuing saga, "As The Whirl Turns..."

(I think I'd better get off. I'm starting to feel kinda' QSI...[xx(])

[scubaterry]

Tom - Are you saying when you change CV2 it defaults to 35 or was at 35 out of the box when default is supposed to be 8? Well in light of your report I'm thinking at least to a small degree the chip is having issues with your DCC system? The F10 thing as an example and not being able to manipulate CV2?? Do you have a club or neighbor with a diferent DCC system you can try? Did I read it write in that the low speed problem has been fixed?
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

Good news, bad news, good news, bad news....

Good news
Got the replacement upgrade chip from Tony's today. I was busy with a lighting project this past evening so I didn't get to swapping the chip out till late.

When I first installed the replacement chip, a bizarre thing happened. Expecting the default address to be "3", I plugged 003 into my Power Cab locomotive address display. Nothing. "Okay, I'll try '2'." Still nothing. "How 'bout '4'?" Nope. Out of curiosity I then tried the locomotive long address of "5101" that I used on the chip that I just removed...and THAT worked! [%-)] Is the long address stored in RAM somewhere for a short period of time - even though you change the decoder chip?

Anyway, back to the story. Initially, I noticed a vast improvement in start up speed of the replacement upgrade chip over the first upgrade chip. Whereas with the first upgrade chip, speed steps 001-021 were the same speed and only started increasing once you got to speed step 022, the replacement chip started a noticeable increase in speed at speed step 005. OK, things are looking better already. [:)][tup]

Bad news
With the initial starting speeds looking good, I then decided to move onto the F10 test. Once I got the Mike up to a decent speed, I pressed F10 (SHIFT + PROG/ESC on the Power Cab). Got a toot from the whistle so I tried pressing F10 again. This time the sound quieted, "mumbled" the speed, then locked up like it did with the other first upgrade chip. [:(] The was discouraging, to say the least.

Good news
I thought to myself, "Maybe I'll try pulling the chip and reseating it again." I checked the start up speed once more - everything looked great. Tried the F10 test a second time: The sound quieted, "mumbled" the speed again, but this time I could reduce speed back down to "0" again. Cool! I ended up testing F10 a few more times just to make sure that I wasn't seeing a mirage. I don't know why that seemed to help but it did. OK, two outta three; one more test to go. [:)]

Bad news
I tried fine tuning CV2 (according to the info sheet included in with the new chip) and couldn't get it to take the inputs successfully. I read and reread the directions and tried programming CV2 a half dozens times but to no avail: I just can't seem to reset CV2. [:)] Bummer! I'm not entirely sure if the problem still isn't "operator error".

Perhaps someone can answer a question for me. In the literature that accompanies the upgrade chip, the default for CV2 is supposed to be "8". If that's the case, why is it when I check the CV input using the Program mode, CV2 setting comes up as "035" - after it has been set at "8"? That doesn't make ANY sense at all to me.

Conclusion
Well, at least 2 of 3 issues now seem to be well in hand. I'm just still baffled at the whole CV2 fine turning adjustment. But...its an improvement over how things were just a few days ago, huh?

I'll need to e-mail Tony's and NCE later today to let them know that the replacement chip seemed to rectify the matter for the most part. I'll keep you all posted if I get the fine turning figured out.

Tom

[scubaterry]

I was expecting a package of Passenger LPB's from Walthers today. Ditto maybe tomorrow.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

[sigh]...No replacement chip today...Maybe tomorrow...

Tom

[rexhea]

Tom, I agree with Terry. I have worked with electronics as a Tech and I as an Eng. for 40 years and haven't experienced ESD damage. This has been true in my teaching experience and with students mishandling them. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen with a visible spark that can have 1000's of volts, thus the comment about the lightning bolt. Many high level IC's have protection built into the input leads to prevent damage from small amounts of static and considering that the designers know that layman will be handling them, I would bet that decoders do also. It is still always a good practice to ground your arm to rid yourself of any large amounts of built-up static. This is easily done by simply grabbing a piece of metal to discharge it...you know ...like a car door does...Ouch! Oh yeah, as and added precaution, it is best not to wear nylon clothing when handling chips
REX[:)]

[scubaterry]

Tom - I suppose that is possible. I did 23 yrs + in the Navy as an electronics technician, specialty Digital. Not once in all those years did I ever have an ESD damage issue. Never even heard of one occuring? Not saying it can't happen but it is unlikely. Again for arguments sake if it did take ESD damage then it could exhibit litterally any symptom from total dead to any number of odd behaviors depending on what component took the hit. I suspect with the F10 problem and your CV adj problems that you have a electronically challenged chip. Have you experienced problems with your DCC system in the past? Not being able to program etc?? I guess we will know the answer soon enough.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

Rex,

Actually, you don't even have to have a "lightning bolt" come out of your fingers. Even small, undetectable zaps can harm a component.

Tom

[rexhea]

Tom, it is unlikely that static discharge zapped your decoder, particularly since you grounded yourself before handling it. Unless a lightning bolt went out of your fingers, I would bet it didn't happen and you just have a bad program.

REX

[tstage]

For the sake of argument: Say I accidentally zapped the decoder with ESD (electrostatic discharge) from not being careful about grounding myself before removing the chip from the package. Could what I'm experiencing be the result of that? Or, would it effect the whole decoder - i.e. it would even fire up or be readable from the command station?

Tom

FYI: I was VERY careful to grounding myself before handling the chip.

[scubaterry]

Tom - Yep things are looking bad for that Chip! I dug out my 2-8-2 tonight and played with it and the Hudson. Big difference in operations between the two. Particularly low speed. My next upgrade will be for the Mike.
Anxious to see if the new chip solves your problem.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Tom -

As far as changes to CV2 (or any CV for that matter) in ops mode....As soon as I hit enter for the new CV value I get immediate changes in loco speed acc/decc etc. Along with the verbal acknowledgement

Terry [8D][:D]

Terry,

I get verbal acknowledgment when I change the values of CV49 & 56. But when I change CV2 (in Standard Throttle Control mode), the speed is constant (i.e. it neither increases or decreases in speed with the adjustment) and I get no verbal acknowledgment at all. Since that's the case for me and not for you, it sorta makes you think that I could be the chip. The reset to factory settings didn't make any difference along those lines.

Terry, you're right about problems like this. It does make you dig more to try and narrow down where the problem is, as well as force you into the DCC manual more. Hopefully in the next couple of days I'll be able to come up with something more definitive.

Tom

[scubaterry]

Tom - It certainly seems you have more going on than meets the eye. My F10 seems to be working fine. I have the Digitrax Super Chief FWIW. It will be interesting to see if the new decoder works or if it is a particular DCC system incompatability/bug. You may be the first to find the bug. Maybe they will name a decoder after you. The "Tominater"

As far as changes to CV2 (or any CV for that matter) in ops mode....As soon as I hit enter for the new CV value I get immediate changes in loco speed acc/decc etc. Along with the verbal acknowledgement

Payday I am going to buy the upgrade chip for my BLI 2-8-2. That aught to be interesting. But the good thing is threads/problems like these make us roll our sleeves up and get into the system and learn how they operate. So its all good.

Rex - Good explanation of the RTC. I sure do like it. What a difference it makes.

Terry [8D][:D]

[rexhea]

Tom:
I don't know why you are having problems with the Ops mode, but it is always much safer to use Program mode anyway.

The reason you have to switch out of the RTC mode to get a good program for CV2 is because CV2 is used only to overcome the initial resistance to get the engine moving. With RTC on, you can't get an accurate starting voltage set because its trying to do all the controlling by sensing the current draw on the motor. There still needs to be enough kick voltage (CV2) set for RTC to start controlling properly.
Clear as mud?[:o)]

REX

[tstage]

Yet another installment...

Last evening I decided to try one more attempt to performing the fine tune adjustment on my new QSI upgrade chip in my BLI Mike.

After I increased CV2 (in OPS mode) from the default of 008 to 010 (according to the chip upgrade installation info sheet supplied by QSI), I removed my Mike and placed it on the programming track to actually get a readout value of CV2. When I checked CV2, I got a value of 022, not 010. [%-)] So, from what I could tell, nothing was changing during my adjustment attempts.

I finally decided to try making the CV2 adjustment outright in Service (or Program) mode and skip OPS mode all together. I increased the values of CV2 from 022 till a saw an increase in speed a speed steps under 005. Using Terry’s findings as a base (mentioned above), I finally honed in on a CV2 value of 035 and it’s working fairly well.

With that said, my question to all you DCC gurus out there – and it’s probably going to come across as a pretty imbecilic one at that – what real advantage is there for changing your throttle from RTC (Regulated Throttle Control) to Standard Throttle Control (STC) to perform an OPS mode CV adjustment? I could change CV2 to a different value in Service mode much quicker than in OPS mode…AND I got to see what value CV2 was programmed to before changing it.

Maybe the chip really is the issue. I guess I’ll just have to wait and see what happens when I switch out the upgrade chip for the replacement upgrade chip coming from Tony’s.

Is there anyone here in the NE Ohio area with a DCC system willing to let me come over and try performing the fine tune adjustment with this current QSI upgrade chip? I have greatly appreciated everyone who has added input to this thread so far. [:)]

Till another episode…

Tom

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Tom - What was/is the deal with F10 again? I don't think I caught that.
Terry[8D]

Terry,

With the QSI chip, after I press F10 to get the verbal speed feedback (which is SHIFT + PROG/ESC pressed simultaneously on the Power Cab), the Mike is locked in at its current speed. And, even though the speed step numbers can be raised or lowered on the LCD and the "engine load" sound changes audibly, neither the acceleration or deceleration buttons will slow the locomotive down. The only way to stop the Mike is to press the EMERGENCY button.

Once the Mike is stopped and I press the acceleration button to start it up again, the Mike will only move at a VERY slow speed - no matter what the speed step indicates on the LCD display. The speed step can be set at 010 or 126; the Mike will only move at approximately the speed of 001. F10 works on the old chip but it's only a steam pop off valve sound.

Terry, I have a question for you. When you were performing the fine tune adjustment and were increasing and decreasing the CV2 values in OPS mode, did your Hudson maintain a constant speed during those changes – i.e. until you lowered the value till it stopped – in your case, 028? To put it another way, while in OPS mode, if you increased CV2 to, say – 255, would you Hudson be traveling faster or the same speed as if you had it at 031? The reason for asking is that I’m trying to determine if my Power Cab is actually making those changes in OPS mode. Thanks.

Tom

[scubaterry]

Tom - What was/is the deal with F10 again? I don't think I caught that.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NZRMac

Tom is the Power Cab able to read the CV's on the programming track? If so read it, change it, and read it again, then you'll know if your having success or not??

Ken.

Ken,

Yes, the Power Cab does read the CVs in Service mode. Like Crandell expressed earlier, I'm beginning to wonder myself if anything is really changing when I'm programming in OPS mode. [%-)] You just sort have to wondering if the solution is going to be something REALLY simple and/or REALLY stupid...

Tom

[tstage]

Terry,

Thanks for looking into that. That's encouraging. [:)] Maybe it's an issue with my Power Cab. I(I guess I'll find out after I receive the replacement chip.)

I did reset the chip to the factory defaults last night, ran the F10 test again, and it locked up as before. I'm going to attempt to fine tune CV2 again tonight. I'll let you know what (or what doesn't) happen.

Tom

[rexhea]

Terry: That certainly is encouraging. Interesting how they adj for CV2. When you say step 27, do you mean the CV is set at 27?
EDIT: Oops! I understand what you mean now. THANKS
REX

[scubaterry]

Tom - As I mentioned my BLI Hudson was doing the same thing. It would start moving at spd step 1 and crawl. It wouldn't go noticibly faster until about spd step 26 then it would acc normally.

I followed the directions on how to adj CV2 from the online blurb on the QSI page. The same procedure I think that came with the chip. I will just go thru what I did and see it it makes a diff with you. Mine now works fine. It acc from a crawl at spd Step 1 and is moving/acc normally about spd step 8 rather than 26.

You probably all ready have done this but here goes:

You first have to disable RTC. OPS mode: CV49=4, CV 56=0

Make sure throttle is in 128 spd step mode (I use digitrax DT-400)

Put loco on main line, throttle to spd step 8

OPS mode: increase CV2 (default 8) just until Loco starts to move(mine moved at 31)
OPS mode: decrease CV2 just until loco stops (mine stopped at 28)

CV2 is set

RTN to RTC CV49=4, CV56=1

My Hudson just started to move at step 31 and stopped moving at 28 which is where it is now set. They say you shouldn't have more than a difference of ten between the two numbers (start/stop)? It now seems to work normal for me. And I still have the great crawl at spd step 1. It does act kind of weird until you reset the RTC then all runs fine.

Hopefully this will work for you as well.
Terry[8D]

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

(Oooooo...Latest update?....Pass the chips...)

Received a response back this morning from Tony (Tony's Train Exchange) and Larry Larsen (NCE). Tony couldn't replicate the issue with the upgrade chip and Power Cab that he had there so he is going to ship out a replacement chip to see if that doesn't take care of the problem. [:)]

Tom

Another vendor to log into the "good guys" archive.
Interesting thread. I haven't gone the QSI chip upgrade route yet. Still putting decoders in my non BLI engines. Hope solution is forthcoming via replacement chip-hacking through the CV jungle can be sooo much fun.

Keep posting these DCC gremlins guys, of great help to neophytes like myself(turns on the light bulb over one's head much faster).

Jon [:)]

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mlwjohn

... I have an NCE system at home, and it has spoiled me for the Digitrax system at my MR club.

I was up much too early this morning, and must confess that I can't make sense of your statement.

-Crandell

[M&PWJOHN]

Very informative! hey guys, it would probably help the rest of us out here reading this if we could find out what brand, type system you are using. I have an NCE system at home, and it has spoiled me for the Digitrax system at my MR club.

[scubaterry]

Tom - It will be interesting to see if the new chip makes a diff, As I mentioned my Hudson is doing the same thing after the upgrade?? I think it is either a bug common to the programming in the new chips or it is a simple CV setting that has escaped us at the moment. I will dig my Hudson out tomorrow and see if I can stumble onto something.
Terry[8D]

[tstage]

(Oooooo...Latest update?....Pass the chips...)

Received a response back this morning from Tony (Tony's Train Exchange) and Larry Larsen (NCE). Tony couldn't replicate the issue with the upgrade chip and Power Cab that he had there so he is going to ship out a replacement chip to see if that doesn't take care of the problem. (Siskel and Ebert award for Tony from me. [tup][tup]) Larry inquired if F10 worked on my old chip, which it does. (FYI: On the old chip, F10 is steam pop-off(?); on the upgrade chip, verbal speed.)

Well, it looks like in the meantime I may try some of the suggestions that a few of you have mentioned and see what happens. Thanks again for the ideas. You all have been great. [:)]

Tom

[rexhea]

Tom:
I am not sure that you have reset your new chip or not, but you should always try this to clean up any gremlins that may be running around. If you don't want to use the software method, do a manual using the wand or built-in switch as per instructions.

Also and after a reset, go to standard mode and then enter a 2 into CV29 for short address or a 34 into CV29 for long address. This will disable the speed tables. You shouldn't need to mess with the speed tables when you switch to RTC.

If this doesn't help, I would reset the chip and then start reading what the CV's are set at to see if one of them is not resetting. The JMRI computer software is ideal for this, but many throttles do allow a memory read on the programming track using Page mode.

FYI: A couple of years ago, I had asked why there was no MidV CV. The answer was that QSI had another way of controlling that voltage.

[sledgehammer]

Tom Heres some food for thought

You are adjusting the start up voltage setting by adjusting CV2. Now my question is this when does the starup votage end and the mid voltage take effect. Im thinking the mid voltage should play apart of this as well. Its a thought.

Now I looked in my manual for the verbal voice sound. ther is a mute setting on it somewhere. I just have to find it and how to set it. The manual i have has 175 pages in it. so It's going to take me sometime to find it.

You are still havin problems with the F10 key in the upgrade chip. Was this feature on the old chip,and did it work?