BLI's F Unit Thread (Title edited to reflect changing situations with these units)

[Anonymous]

I have purchased the material from Tony's Train Exchange and will insulate the engines from the sound problems. None of the local stores here had that material (aka Stik Tak)

It will be a few days before the work is complete. I'll let you know if it improves the sound.

http://tonystrains.com/tonystips/2006/060206b.htm

Darth Santa Fe, I dont have any experience with Highliner shells but I think BLI did a good job at least on the B&O shells I have. The one think I think is a winner is how they did the very delicate metal grilling on the sides.

[mustanggt]

Yeah, the number boards are sort of out of place on that FT[xx(]. But hey, it's cheap DCC equipped power, I might get one for my little brother's birthday, and a 70 tonner for myself................

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cspmo

QUOTE: http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-60102 and an FT:

Damm thats ugly. Isn't Intermountain coming out with FT in HO?

Gack, your right. There is something wrong with the overall proportions isn't there (Not to mention incorrect nose paint)?

[cspmo]

QUOTE: http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-60102 and an FT:

Damm thats ugly. Isn't Intermountain coming out with FT in HO?

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve
It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.

What other F powered ABBA units do you have that you are comparing these to?

Well, the F units I owned previously were trainset Life Likes with the single rear power truck. I ran that one for near 20 years until it finally suffered a death due to old age and weat and tear. There is no comparison to the modern trains availible today.

Yup that is a major leap forward! I can verify what johncolley states about the Stewarts. I have an AB set that will pull 55 cars, so I am certain his ABBA set isn't even trying hard. I still contend the orignal Stewart run with the Kato drives are the best Fs out there, even though the current ones are no slouch. I would love to see someone do a carefully controlled test between the old and new Stewarts, the Genesis, the Intermountain, the Proto 1000s, and now the BLIs. I am guessing that performance wise they are all going to be pretty close.

[Don Gibson]

Safety Valve

QUOTE: I might just put all 4 units on the bench later this weekend and fire em up on that poor pack. The Tech 4 people enjoy telling the world how powerful thier packs are. Well, we are going to prove em. (For a few minutes any how)

Most advertised specs are overly generous. The nature of power supplies is as the current goes up, the voltage goes down. When my top-of-line (then) MRC had to supply 5 amps, the max. voltage dropped to 3 volts. Present day MRC's are weaker.

QSI equipped BLI engines pull quite a bit of current. On straight DC they require 5 volts to just start moving. Sound systems normally take 1 watt (each). Having 2 sets each of F-7, F-3, and FT diesels all in ABBA configuration, I can attest that using 4 powered engines is overkill. (For home layouts 2 will do just fine).

What I AM saying is: 1. BLI/QSI are power hungry beasts, 2. FOUR sound equipped engines could tax most people's systems. HOW would one know? Burned out power supplies? Sluggish response? Marginal perfromance?

An AMPMETER will tell it's owner power usage of every piece of equipment, or combination. A cheap Multimeter can be had for $12. A permanent one to panel mount is $20

Not having DCC I cannot assess a meter's benefits here. With multiple power districts I might consider 'idiot lights' - if nothing else.

[Darth Santa Fe]

How's the detail on the BLIs? Is it as good as on the Highliner shells? I have a picture of the UP F7A on the front of a BLI catalog, and it looks like the number boards aren't flush with the shell. Did they fix that?

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2..

Do you mean FA-1/FB-1 and FA-2/FB-2? Here's an FT diesel (F1): http://walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-60102 and an F2: http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG10701

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve
It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.

What other F powered ABBA units do you have that you are comparing these to?

Well, the F units I owned previously were trainset Life Likes with the single rear power truck. I ran that one for near 20 years until it finally suffered a death due to old age and weat and tear. There is no comparison to the modern trains availible today.

That model cannot be compared to the BLI F units. I did have eye on the Genesis models for a very long time and recall almost settling for a set in B&O when the wait got too long for the BLI F units. I am glad I waited for the BLI models.

Now I did own a set of Proto 2000 Life Like FA units within the last few years. (Also B&O) Researching DCC and sound installation revealed the potential for putting a great deal of money into them. I sold them off and used the revenue as seed money in the warchest towards the replacement F units.

I considered the Proto 2000 FA units good engines that ran very well off my analog pack and will be missed. The only problem was I bought these thru the LHS at close to retail which was way more than what you might pay today at the mail or internet house.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve
It is my humble opinion that these units represent the best Model Railroading can offer and it takes alot to get me to feel this good about a locomotive.

What other F powered ABBA units do you have that you are comparing these to?

[cmarchan]

QUOTE: Another Shake-and-baker.

Ive been bashing locos for 20 years, and have NEVER refused to buy a loco because of a little flaw....I just work around them. Aparently, wana-be model railroaders like you need to have a 'perfect' loco out of the box or you start crying.

David

David,

Why are you so hostile towards those who want accurate models? This hobby is not exclusive to those capable of scratchbuilding, decaling or painting models. If that were true, the patronage would be limited. If you have the talent, time and patience to custom paint, detail and modify models, good for you. Not all of the hobbyists fall into this category. After all it is our love of trains that is the core of the interest - in most cases. Enjoyment is the key.

You happen to mention the Canadian roads. Not all of the RR's in the US are represented by the manufacturers either. Many of the short lines, premerger roads before 1960 and logging RR's for example are devoid of representative models.

I enjoy custom painting and detail. I wish I had more time to dedicate to it. However, if I can purchase a suitable model out of the box with accurate paint and primary detail, I will. I can always add the extra details later. Otherwise it makes a good OVERALL representative of the item I saw as a prototype. I think you will find the large majority of us who purchase models (the financial part that sustains the existance of the manufacturers) would agree.

I gather from your comments you are bitter about the lack of Canadian models. Work with your historical societies. Contact the manufacturers. It works. It has made a dramatic change in the availability of models for Seaboard Airline, Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Coast Line. When I started in this hobby over 30 years ago, there was little or no representation for these roads. What was there was inaccurate or had poor quality. We had to create, and create and create. I feel you, man. But it can get better through communication not antagonism.

[scubaterry]

Safety Valve - Hey let us know if the fix improves your sound.
Terry[8D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Pondini

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

The sound was rather quiet but suspect that is because I havent mastered the volumes yet.

Tony's just posted an article about improving the sound on these units -- looks fairly easy: http://tonystrains.com/tonystips/2006/060206b.htm

I find it amazing how simple some solutions can be.

After thinking about the entire situation from F unit announcment thru the long wait to release and finally discovering the paint issues and now this.

I can sit and ask "Why wasnt the entire Project overseen by someone who understands what Broadway Limited wants for thier customers?" Is the problem in the factory overseas?

No matter, Im off to try and search out this Stick Tac stuff mentioned in the article.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Safety Valve

The sound was rather quiet but suspect that is because I havent mastered the volumes yet.

Tony's just posted an article about improving the sound on these units -- looks fairly easy: http://tonystrains.com/tonystips/2006/060206b.htm

[Anonymous]

Calm down people, The WM unit paint error is being corrected by BLI with a recall that also involves DB's and other errors on a variety of F units.

No need to get in a uproar here. Broadway is working to fix the problem and we all should be thankful that a manufactor is going to the trouble and perhaps some expense to correct a problem.

I see other things going on like rivet counter or non rivet counter versus a variety of models availible. I myself am not a rivit counter but am somewhat particular about what I choose to buy in the hobby. I do know that the WM units as they were would not be purchased by me. But the possibility does exist in the future that a set might be purchased because they will carry a corrected paint.

I should take it easy because I myself recently complained on the forums about the lack of RTR Plastic HO B&O cabooses. I was told that if I wanted one, I can get one pre-built from a kit, buy a kit and learn to build it or get it in brass. These are good choices but no reason to get upset because they are a variety of options open to me if I wanted a B&O caboose.

I should go back under my rock now but wanted to say that this has been a educational thread and would hate to see it retired due to sensitive people picking on each other about things not really related to the BLI F units themselves.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE:
I would never pay that much for something that is so wrong. Have you acually seen how screwed up the WM F unit was? If it was some close out or a bargain that had potential then go for it. I enjoy kitbashing and superdetailing, but I don't want to have to do it on a new piece that should be right in the first place.
Some don't care to or have the time or ability to do as you do, so to each his own, Why ba***hem over it. I am lazy at times and like to pull one out of the box, am I a Want-a -Be modeler as well?
Bob K.

My point being....he said that people like him are responsible for making me a modelrailroader as opposed to a man playing with toys. My point is that he is COMPLETELY wrong and out of line. There are currently NO Canadian-correct locos out there right now, and with his thinking, Im playing with toys because they are not available out of the box.......he is wrong.

I am a Model-railroader. I model trains. I dont buy them, I make them. Ive been doing it for a long time now. What I dont need is some wanna-be comming on here telling me that because he is crying to mfgs about a few little flaws in their products, he is responsible in making me what I am today. That is complete BS. Also, the attitude that 'if it aint perfect, it aint worth buying" is just sad. He is a perfect example of a crying-nitpicker that makes MFGs not want to put out new products. He is NOT a model railroader, rather a Shake and Baker.

Nuff Said

David

If that was indeed a slam to modelers like yourself, I agree. I'm just not sure it was meant in that way. The WM release was a total mess. BLI oviously did "0" research for the paint and artwork. If it was only details like repositioning horns or even adding dymamics that wouldn't have been too bad. I realize that there is very little short of brass that comes even close to your prototype- This reason is what has made you the modeler you are-necessity or settle for less.
Bob K.

[cspmo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]

OK I forgot about them.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by CurtMc

We are what allow you to use models not toys

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Sigh.....I hate nitpickers

David

Another Shake-and-baker.

Ive been bashing locos for 20 years, and have NEVER refused to buy a loco because of a little flaw....I just work around them. Aparently, wana-be model railroaders like you need to have a 'perfect' loco out of the box or you start crying.

David

I would never pay that much for something that is so wrong. Have you acually seen how screwed up the WM F unit was? If it was some close out or a bargain that had potential then go for it. I enjoy kitbashing and superdetailing, but I don't want to have to do it on a new piece that should be right in the first place.
Some don't care to or have the time or ability to do as you do, so to each his own, Why ba***hem over it. I am lazy at times and like to pull one out of the box, am I a Want-a -Be modeler as well?
Bob K.

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

One of my favorite sounds on my layout is the ALCO engines idling in and out of sync. The most enjoyable sight is seeing a bunch of F units lashed up. Just something about that tickles me.
terry[8D]

Your talking about other Alcos, the Fs are EMD.

[scubaterry]

One of my favorite sounds on my layout is the ALCO engines idling in and out of sync. The most enjoyable sight is seeing a bunch of F units lashed up. Just something about that tickles me.
terry[8D]

[johncolley]

I have a Stewart FT ABBA that I used to routinely pull 65 cars on a club layout with 24"r curves and some 1.5-2% grades...no problems! Since the layout's demise i have switched one of the B units to dummy full of sound. I can still pull 50 cars on level track with only 3 units powered.

[scubaterry]

safety valve- I program each loco individually before locking them. I program the primary A unit to my satisfaction. Then putting it on the track I match each additional loco to it. I figure if a loco can make two trips around the track and stay within four inches of the A unit then I am good to go. Once all four are programmed the same i lock decoders and mu them up. I don't think I am loosing any abilities by using the same address. Nothing that I have noticed anyway. The only alternative is using different addresses which eats up more throttle space and makes it a tad more complicated with different address to juggle.
terry[8D]

[Anonymous]

Thank you.

I do worry that if I assigned one address to two decoders to make it simple, wont that defeat any benefits gained by each decoder's ability to work together? Isnt that why we have the ability to call up "Slave" or "Helper" behavior functions? Two decoders + Two motors, I dunno - sounds like a recipie for sibling rivaltry.(Spelling?)

[scubaterry]

Safety Valve - Great video.
Terry[8D]

[scubaterry]

Bob K - I have a modest 14 x 12 currently so i really don't have a problem with plugging in. We are moving up north this fall and I hope to have a bigger layout in my future. It would cost too much I think to convert to Radio. I am sure it is cool but that additonal cost on top of building a new layout would be steep. I agree with the line of sight problem with IR. I only have one Rx and I have to aim the DT-400 right at it to get it to work. What if you suspended a RX over the layout or maybe several? I hold the throttle at an up angle anyway and maybe that would solve some of the line of sight problems with IR.

I have a double main so I typically run two trains on auto pilot on the mains and run a switcher in one of the yards or make drop offs/pick ups downtown. I usually have a dozen or so Locos on the layout. All have sound so I get a kick out of hearing them idling particularly the ALCO engines as they drift in and out of phase.
Terry [8D]

[Anonymous]

We are what allow you to use models not toys

QUOTE: Originally posted by davidmbedard

QUOTE: Originally posted by NevinW

It sounds like the mechanism is great. It is too bad they botched some of the paint jobs so bad. The Western Maryland paint job was surreal. I would have bought a couple otherwise. - Nevin

Sigh.....I hate nitpickers

David

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Bob K - Well if I understand you correctly I think the way you described is the way i do it. I typically run them in separate AB sets and occasionally run them all together. The F1AB set is all one address sound and motor as they always will be together and the F2AB set has all the same address as they run together. When i run an ABBA I just mu one set to the other. Once mu'd I can use the left throttle on my DT-400 for something else using only one throttle for all four units. Now that most decoders have the locking ability it makes it easier to have the motor and sound decoder on the same address. Yes it is a pain plugging and unplugging to acquire with the digitrax but it is something I can live with. I only have one IR rx at the moment and basically I probably need at least two more to make IR running smooth. So for now I use direct connect anyway. Thanks for the info.
terry[8D]

Terry,
Yes, that's what I meant. Once all units are MUed and running on the Rt throttle, yes the left is available. I don't know if you run 2 trains at once but it is done. I only concentrate on the train I am running and it is easier to Lt knob control for any function or un MU so you wouldn,t have to steal. Can get complicated and confusing. Many, myself included leave sets MU even after shutdown. In a club setting this starts to clutter the brain, and periodic cleanout of cobwebs is in order.
Did you ever consider radio? Once you use it, your spoiled for good. My DT400R lost radio cabability after being spoiled for years, on the huge club layout it was a nusiance shooting the controller at the sensor for positive control while walk around.
Bob K.

[scubaterry]

Bob K - Well if I understand you correctly I think the way you described is the way i do it. I typically run them in separate AB sets and occasionally run them all together. The F1AB set is all one address sound and motor as they always will be together and the F2AB set has all the same address as they run together. When i run an ABBA I just mu one set to the other. Once mu'd I can use the left throttle on my DT-400 for something else using only one throttle for all four units. Now that most decoders have the locking ability it makes it easier to have the motor and sound decoder on the same address. Yes it is a pain plugging and unplugging to acquire with the digitrax but it is something I can live with. I only have one IR rx at the moment and basically I probably need at least two more to make IR running smooth. So for now I use direct connect anyway. Thanks for the info.
terry[8D]

[bogp40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]

Terry,
If you want to break up the consist you can just un MU the other AB set. I believe you mentioned your using Digitrax, If you never plan to break up the B units from its respective A, then you can assign the AB set the same number, do the same for the other AB. This will allow MUing of the slave AB set to the "master AB set. Anytime you need to break the AB consist, plug in and un MU. If you want individual control of all units when reassigning, then they all have to be slaved to one lead/ master A, plugging in and breaking or removing one from consist is only a little more work, but I do it all the time.
This is the only problem w/ Digitrax(plugging in to aquire and MU+or-. NCE works wonders for this purpose.
I don't understand the use of two throttles, regardless of controll the units are all running off the 5A track power. The BLIs sap power when charging the capacitor on start up of the system, you should have no problem running 4 powered units and controlling w/ one throttle. Check it out and give it a try.
A reminder about QSI sound decoders, even with the sound off the capacitor still charges on startup. At my club, we had issues w/ too many sound(BLI) units in staging and powered off line/ yards etc, it played h*ll w the power supply and circuit breakers during constant show running(very embarrasing w/ all the visitors watching a broken RR).
Bob K.

[scubaterry]

CSPMO - One set is a P2K F1 and one set is P2K F2.. Even though I bought them just several months ago the F1 set is the old issue. It had the old light board that hasn't been used in a while.. A great deal I think for 49.95 per set.

Bob K - If I use the same address for all four units then I can't run them separately. I don't have a grade on this layout so I seldom run all four together. They do sound good running together though. I put a vid thread up not too long ago with all four lashed up.
Terry[8D]