Holy Philadelphia Mint, Batman!!

[Pruitt]

I was just looking at the cost of the NMRA convention here in Philly in July.

$150 just to get in the door for the week?!? [:0]

And $50 for one-day only??? ([:0] again!)

Is this a bit on the expensive side, or am I completely out of it?

[dgwinup]

Although I can't determine if you are completely out of it, I must agree that $150 seems a bit high! Maybe that includes a lot of activities, I don't know.

Nobody said it was a CHEAP hobby, just the world's greatest! LOL

Darrell, quiet...for now

[rolleiman]

I guess the question you really have to ask is do you support the NMRA? Another I would ask (myself, if considering going), what do I get for my $50/$150? Both questions, I'll be asking next summer (I hear they're coming to Detroit).

[cacole]

Are you sure that's not the fees charged to vendors rather than general admission? If that's the general admission cost, then it is horribly out of line for what you're going to see.

[jrbernier]

Those expenses get you in the door, clinics, and the National Train Show. Layout Tours, Banquet, and other items are usually extra fare. And you need to be an NMRA member($48/year ??) to get in. Conventions are not cheap. The AMA(R/C Airplane modelers) charge $58/year for membership, and their annual NATS show/fly-in is charging something like $55-$65/event(R/C scale, combat, etc...) to attend/fly your model at. None of the 'National' stuff in any hobby is inexpensive!

Jim

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbernier

Those expenses get you in the door, clinics, and the National Train Show. Layout Tours, Banquet, and other items are usually extra fare. And you need to be an NMRA member($48/year ??) to get in. Conventions are not cheap. The AMA(R/C Airplane modelers) charge $58/year for membership, and their annual NATS show/fly-in is charging something like $55-$65/event(R/C scale, combat, etc...) to attend/fly your model at. None of the 'National' stuff in any hobby is inexpensive!

Jim

And at that some of the clinics cost extra (but those supply materials, and you take home whatever you've built).

By the time you tack on a couple of those at $40 or so, plus one or two layout tours at $40-55 each and maybe one banquet, You've spent in excess of $350, and that's the cost if you're a local who goes home every night. SHEESH!!

[potlatcher]

I went to the Seattle convention in 2004. I did get some good out of it, but not enough to justify the $150. After 25+ years in the hobby without attending a national convention, I was expecting something really great. I'm sure the Seattle convention was comparable with the other nationals, but it didn't live up to my somewhat inflated expectations.

I only had $300 in the budget, and between the admission and lodging costs, I couldn't afford to attend more than three days and was unable to participate in the "extra fare" events (OK, I did scrounge up $25 more to go on the one cheap layout tour, but that was also a let down). Basically, if you don't have a lot of money, you can't have very much fun. If the convention ever comes close to where I live again, I will save my $300, spend $10 of it to get into the National Train Show, and spend the other $290 on "toys" at the show.

Tom

[loathar]

Hmmmm....Thanks for posting this. I've only been to one local show and it was $10 at the door. I've been thinking about going to a show in Memphis, Tn this summer. It's a bigger show and would require an overnight stay and 8 hours of round trip drive time and (choke!!!) GAS!!! If the trip eats up my train buying budget, It doesn't make a lot of sence to go....(got to give this some thought now...)[:O]

[Anonymous]

Hey what's the problem? Just getting there from here would cost a bomb... or be a long wet walk...
better start walking...

[jfugate]

If you've never been on a lot of layout tours you will be disappointed -- that's just the way it works. There are a lot of reasons for this.

First of all, the skill levels and quality levels of the layouts will be all over the map on a tour. You can only do so much to mix in a few good layouts with some of the less-than-spectacular ones since you can't relocate most layouts easily. [swg]

Speaking as one who has been the layout tour person on a convention committee, you do what you can to get at least one *really good* layout in the mix if you can. But there are no guarantees, naturally.

Second, if you haven't visited a lot of layouts in person and mainly looked at layouts in the hobby magazines, you are going to be disappointed.

I can best illustrate this with a personal example. At the 1993 National at Valley Forge, I was able to visit Tony Koester's famed Allegheny Midland in person. My immediate first impression was his layout was a whole lot smaller than I had envisioned. Second, there were several areas that had bare plaster painted green and bare plywood roadbed where bridges were supposed to go.

But I'd visited enough layouts in person to know that personal layout visits rarely have the impact closeup photos in magazine articles convey so I quickly did a mental readjust and went on to really enjoy the visit.

I've learned that you need to focus on the effort someone has put into their layout and to look for something to appreciate about every layout you visit, and to not let the slick and beautiful photos used in the magazine layout articles overinflate your expectations. (On a personal note, my article's lead photo of my layout in MR's new Realistic Layouts special issue looks *way better* than the actual scene looks to me in person. There's just something about closeup photos printed *large* in magazines that makes *everything* look bigger than life.)

Taking this approach I have found I thoroughly enjoy the layout visits at conventions. To me it's first and foremost about the *people* in the hobby and the comraderie we can enjoy together. That's one reason why I have to hand it to Al Kalmbach with his great insight of naming his magazine Model Railroader.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Joe
that's a superb response!

May I quote one bit especially...

I've learned that you need to focus on the effort someone has put into their layout and to look for something to appreciate about every layout you visit, and to not let the slick and beautiful photos used in the magazine layout articles overinflate your expectations.

This also applies to our every day modelling... esp[ecially for beginners.

Pics in mags look great in seconds... there are years of effort behind many of them... and two inches to the left is bare wood over the furnace...

Thanks Joe :-)

[loathar]

Here, Here, Joe! GREAT post! I understand exactly what your saying.
Not everyones level of quality would impress most modelers. I hope one day to live up to level of quality that you, (and Charlie Comstock) have acheived. THAT would be worth a high dollar layout tour.....You folks have set the bar WAY too high for the rest of us....

[Attaboy]

I went to the convention in Ft. Lauderdale in 2002, to Cincinnatti last year, and I will be in Phila. in July. Average cost with the paid tours and clinics I go to is usually around $1000. I consider it money well spent. Besides the morning to night free clinics on almost any topic imaginable the layout tours are an opportunity to see how others build their layouts. Last year in Cinci I saw W. Allen McClellan's new layout. Even though it was not near being finished it was well worth the money to see the "nuts and bolts" of how he does it. The prototype tours are a good way to get ideas for the layout, like the prototype switch manufacturing tour I took last year. And perhaps the most valuable part, a chance to get acquainted with model railroaders from all over the world and exchange ideas. The people I've met at the conventions have been universally friendly and more than will to talk about a hobby they love, whether they were from Japan, South Africa, Brazil, or the US and Canada.

After each convention I've come home completely recharged with the adrenalin flowing to do more on my layout.

[RedGrey62]

That's the problem with most conventions, this one isn't unique. I recently got invited to a convention dealing with my profession and they wanted 75 dollars for 3 days. I attended the train show in Cincinatti and was thoroughly pleased, but I didn't attend any of the other events. I'd like to attend the 2008 convention in Anaheim so I can see family and do other things in the area. Again, I'll probably just go to the train show and as potlatcher said, spend most of the difference on trains and train related items.

Rick

[Anonymous]

I'm going to the Philly convention since it doesn't come my way too often, but I have noticed on the convention's website that many tours are being cancelled due to lack of interest or not enough people signed up for them. I wonder if this is due to the high price to attend the convention.

[Vampire]

I too have noticed the number of cancellations. It seems much higher than last years Cincy convention. That one was my first and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But it was a bit expensive.

I'm hoping to get to Philly this year but I won't be doing as much. For one thing a lot of the interesting events seem to happen on the same days, limiting my choice to one or the other. That happened a couple of times last year but it seems more frequent this time. Maybe it's just an unfortunate coincidence but there are some neat tours I'll miss out on due to all the overlap.

Oh well, it will still be fun. At least when it comes to Anaheim in 2008 I won't have to pay for a hotel. Just an exorbitant parking fee...[:O]

[potlatcher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

If you've never been on a lot of layout tours you will be disappointed -- that's just the way it works. There are a lot of reasons for this.

Joe:

I appreciate your thoughts on the layout tours. I hope I didn't communicate a lack of appreciation for the efforts of those modelers who hosted the tour I went on in 2004. It was evident that they had all put a lot of work into their layouts.

However, there is a reason you did not list why I was disappointed with the visit. The tour I attended featured four layouts: one garden railway and three HO scale. The garden layout was first on the schedule, and it was interesting to see, even though I'm generally not a big fan of them. HO layout number one was pretty big with benchwork and track complete. Several structures were in place, and the scenery was mostly green paint on plaster with a few trees. HO layout number two was multi level in a small spare room with track in place but no scenery or structures at the time of our visit. The last layout had an eastern urban theme with track on plywood and a few mocked up structures in place. I enjoyed this one most of all, but I didn't realize why until later: the last layout actually had a train running on it while the first two HO layouts did not.

If the owners of the other two HO layouts had made sure that a train was running during our visit - either on a continuous loop or with a friend running a train while the owner showed off his creation - all three layouts would have seemed much more alive no matter how incomplete they may have been otherwise.

I guess I would recommend to any model railroader showing his layout to guests - whether it be his next-door neighbor or a busload of conventioneers - that they make sure they have a train running. Operating trains are what separates our hobby from so many others and will help bring our layout to life for everyone, no matter how much plywood is showing.

Tom

[Leon Silverman]

You visitors should be thankfull you do not live in Philadelphia. It ihas one of the highest total tax rates in the nation.

Ex resident

[R. T. POTEET]

I recently (and most reluctantly) cancelled my registration to Philadelphia. It was a matter of "have to/not want to". The expense was just too great.

I like (NMRA) conventions and when medical problems forced me to take early (at least before I wanted to) Social Security a couple of years back I figured I had mixed up some lemonade and I was going to be able to attend conventions more frequently than I had been able to do.

My wife and I went to Seattle on our honeymoon - way back in aught four. We are both "advanced in age" codgers and we wanted to visit family members in the region - which we did. We enjoyed ourselves immensely but even that convention was not cheap. Had some reluctance about attending Cincinnati last year - and that was even more expensive. Registered for Philadelphia (signed up on one of those pre-paid package at Cincinnati - will never do that again - we get too soon olt and too late schmart) but "buyer's remorse" set in when all that red ink began showing up in my checkbook.

I do not fly (just don't like flying - aviation is, I am sure you will agree, only an alternate form of transportation - do you know that photographs of locomotives taken from a 7X7 at forty thousand feet look surprisingly like the tops of clouds?) - I drive to these conventions but when I looked up and discovered that this one (registration, transportation, lodging, meals, etc) was going to be over $3000.00 that was even too steep for a spendthrift like me. Guess my next one is Anaheim in aught eight and then Milwaukee for the 75th anniversary bash. Should be able to make Sacramento in '11 but it looks like these five-thousand plus mile conventions are going to be a thing of the past.

Oh, well!! I'll survive - and with a little bit of good fortune there may just be a trade-show booth in my future.

[Anonymous]

twhite, I see that the convention will be in Sacramento in 2011! Is your layout going to be on the tour!???

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by potlatcher
I guess I would recommend to any model railroader showing his layout to guests - whether it be his next-door neighbor or a busload of conventioneers - that they make sure they have a train running. Operating trains are what separates our hobby from so many others and will help bring our layout to life for everyone, no matter how much plywood is showing.

Tom

Tom:

Great point! The layout tour coordinators cannot mandate what the layout owners do or don't do, but there are some things layout owners can do to make a layout tour a lot more enjoyable for folks. As we're discussing, people pay big money to attend conventions any more, and if layout owners will do a few simple things, they will make their layout presentation so it shows the layout in the best way possible.

Here's a couple recommendations:

1. Even on the plywood pacific layouts, it is worthwhile for the layout owner to put in a few feet of finished scenery to give people the idea how the more complete layout is eventually going to look. Ideally, this one little finished scene will be near the entryway so people see it first thing when they step into the layout room. This gives the best possible impression first, which it always a good idea to do.

2. Enlist the help of some friends who know the layout somewhat and have them run trains while you talk with the guests. People generally have lots of questions about what you are doing, why you did it the way you did, and what you have planned for this or that. If you are trying to run trains too, it's hard to concentrate on giving good answers or to pay attention to running the trains well. With help, you can do both well and people will really appreciate it!

3. If you can afford it, complete at least one small train to a finished state with all the proper detailing and weathering, loco lighting and sound. Again this gives people the idea of where you are headed and will help them envision how the layout will eventually look. Plus it really enlivens even the plywood pacific layouts to have a nice looking train running around the layout!

Most people I know (myself included) tend to set our goals too high for pesenting our layout at a convention and the last couple weeks before we're working night and day to get ready. As a result, we tend to be absolutely exhausted and near burnout once the convention arrives and we're presenting the layout. It's better to lower your sights somewhat and concentrate on doing some smaller parts very well first priority and then let the rest of it get as far as it gets -- and so be it if it's not where we wanted to be by convention time. [swg]

[simon1966]

Joe, does this imply that the Siskiyou Line is dissapointing in person after seeing it on the web, in print and on DVD?

[Anonymous]

You visitors are lucky you don't live in New York. Everything's expensive! But even this overtaxed underserviced New Yorker agrees that $150.00 seems steep for a train convention. I could buy a ticket and ride the Acela for that. And it would be much more fun.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Joe, does this imply that the Siskiyou Line is dissapointing in person after seeing it on the web, in print and on DVD?

Shhh! Joe doesn’t like to say anything about hiring Industrial Light & Magic to do CGI work on his DVD's & website... [:D][;)][:o)]

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Joe, does this imply that the Siskiyou Line is dissapointing in person after seeing it on the web, in print and on DVD?

To be totally frank, I believe the answer will be yes for many people unless they've visited lots of layouts in person. A layout is always presented in the best possible light on DVDs and it looks bigger-than-life in print and on the web site. When you see it in person, it's nearly always less grandiose looking and you'll be able to see any blemishes that are carefully edited out otherwise.

Things still derail and don't run smooth here and there in nearly every op session, and more than a few feet of the Siskiyou Line is still ugly bare benchwork. Lots of locos don't have any details yet, have no sound or lights, and have yellow stickies on their sides for loco numbers.

But that's true of all the layouts I've ever visited. No layout is perfect, certainly not mine. [swg]

[Anonymous]

Sometimes the Christmas train shows put on by your local model railroad club are a whole lot more satisfying than the big, crowded, overpriced conventions. A few years back three clubs put together a package deal: buy one ticket see three layouts. Total cost: $6.00 adults, $3.00 kids. This past December I brought my eight year old to a local HO club. He had the time of his life. He got to run trains on the big layout. He still talks about what a great time he had. There were some vendor's tables and I picked up a few items I needed for my layout.

I think if a few of the local clubs in your area decided to join together they could have a joint event in December that would include clinics, home tours and club shows. It wouldn't cost a lot of money, would promote the hobby and everyone would have a great time.

[jfugate]

Let me add that in nearly 40 years in the hobby I've only seen one larger basement layout that was totally finished.

It was a sensory overload. Every square inch had scenery, all the bridges and structures were well detailed and weathered, and every loco and piece of rolling stock was carefully detailed and weathered.

It was simply amazing! A completely finished looking layout. However, in some side conversations with other locals, they told me the layout didn't run very well at all. You couldn't run a train for 5 minutes without something going awry.

So there you go ... even if the layout looks *great* that's no guarantee it will run as good as it looks.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Leon Silverman

You visitors should be thankfull you do not live in Philadelphia. It ihas one of the highest total tax rates in the nation.

Ex resident

Almost as high as where I live, across the Delaware in New Jersey![:(!]

Congratulations on getting OUT![:D]

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Joe, does this imply that the Siskiyou Line is dissapointing in person after seeing it on the web, in print and on DVD?

To be totally frank, I believe the answer will be yes for many people unless they've visited lots of layouts in person. A layout is always presented in the best possible light on DVDs and it looks bigger-than-life in print and on the web site. When you see it in person, it's nearly always less grandiose looking and you'll be able to see any blemishes that are carefully edited out otherwise.

Things still derail and don't run smooth here and there in nearly every op session, and more than a few feet of the Siskiyou Line is still ugly bare benchwork. Lots of locos don't have any details yet, have no sound or lights, and have yellow stickies on their sides for loco numbers.

But that's true of all the layouts I've ever visited. No layout is perfect, certainly not mine. [swg]

Joe -

I'm not sure why, but those few words are one of the more inspiring things I've read about working on a layout in a very long time.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

I'm not sure why, but those few words are one of the more inspiring things I've read about working on a layout in a very long time.

You are so right. When I read Joe's response I found myself thinking that at least I was not the only one with bare spots. To find out that such a highly regarded RR has its faults is comforting. I imagine that total perfection in running characteristcs is an unrealistic goal. Thanks Joe for your frank answer. I was just poking fun with the throw away comment, but I appreciate the serious nature of the response. (serious sounds wrong...honest, thought provoking perhaps).